Encounter healing, ShB vs EW

A lot of digital ink has been spilled discussing EW's healer state, nukespam, and encounter design damage output (e.g. the damage profile of Byregot vs Halone), but I'm kind of curious; how does this compare to ShB?

Did ShB have more overall damage output when comparing like fights (e.g. ZodEx vs Innocence, HydEx vs Titania, P4S vs E4S, Pantheon fights vs the same fight in NieR)? Did the 2.5 sec cast times force more disparate ability use? Where there other ability changes that differentiated the two? Or were things just as bad in ShB as in EW?

I remember people complaining about the SCH DPS kit being gutted and about an expectation of more damage that didn't come, but I don't recall people talking about 180+ Broil casts in an encounter, etc. I'm trying to pin down what changed between the two, if that makes sense?

You get so many heal buttons that you don't use.
I'd play healer again if they gave us damage buttons that were removed in Shb back.

Nothing changed. EW doubled down on SE's crappy mindset in every aspect.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

WHM being regarded as the 'red headed stepchild' of the day and being significantly improved (aside from losing A3) going into SHB does not undo all the losses the others faced. There is zero reason we couldn't have gained the SHB lily fix, AND kept Aero 3, for example. Trying to say that one replaced the other 'so nothing changed really' is like what SE tries to convince us with, with things like 'yeh you lost Stoneskin but here's Stoneskin with a new coat of paint (benison)', or the removal and readdition of the healing% increase CD called Divine Seal>Largesse>Temperance

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Well, it's not the topic at hand, but this IS kind of a point I've made before. And why I've specifically advocated for Aero3/Banish since otherwise WHM is pretty much undisputedly better now than it was in SB. Most of the other things about SB WHM really sucked, and while people keep saying "SB was better", when pinned down on WHM, there's a lot of dithering passed Aero 3. It's also a reason for the advocation that WHM stay mostly the same since there's not really anything from that era aside from Aero 3 that people really miss when pressed on the question. And yet, people didn't complain about it being braindead back then, so apparently, having only Aero 3 that we don't know (and possibly a few less oGCDs...but with WHM, that doesn't really make a lot of sense...) was sufficient for people at the time to find WHM intensely engaging and fun to play.

Stoneskin and Benison aren't the same (one was a GCD, spamable and there was sometimes reason to do so, though by SB most people had stopped using it as much; the other is an oGCD with a CD that you weave between Nukespam casts), likewise, Divine Seal should honestly still be in the game and simply upgrade to Temperance (Largesse wasn't a separate action, it was Divine Seal converted to a Role Action).

But that's more for this thread, so I guess I'll cross-post it here.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

I remember people complaining about the SCH DPS kit being gutted and about an expectation of more damage that didn't come, but I don't recall people talking about 180+ Broil casts in an encounter, etc. I'm trying to pin down what changed between the two, if that makes sense?

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The change is that time has passed and the players have become embittered by being ignored.

The difference between those two isn't the thrust of the argument, it's only that the first is speculative while the second has the oh-so-real experience of playing one of these boring green turrets for almost four years to draw on. That's all.

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Originally Posted by vetch

The change is that time has passed and the players have become embittered by being ignored.

The difference between those two isn't the thrust of the argument, it's only that the first is speculative while the second has the oh-so-real experience of playing one of these boring green turrets for almost four years to draw on. That's all.

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Not even that. We had posts giving similar complaints about 'healers are too boring now' from the word go in ShB as Well. They just didn't have the data to show just how monotonous it would get.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

crosspost

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The SB WHM issue stems more from, at least from how I saw it then (and with hindsight my view of it is only doubled down on), simply this: WHM did not evolve enough going from HW into SB. AST and SCH both got new cool things to get excited over, new Card system stuff for AST like Minor Arcana and Sleeve Draw, and Earthly Star as an actual OGCD healing tool (since it had none up til then). SCH got a rework to Shadowflare that very few people asked for, but it also got Miasma2 as an actual AOE to spam (and the niche optimization for movement that it brought), Chain Strat as a raidbuff to help the team with (which everyone still loves to this day), and some new fairy stuff to play with (Fey Union, while memed on now, helped immensely with keeping the MT alive for extended periods without resorting to Adlos)

WHM, had it received the SHB Lily changes just 2 years earlier at the start of SB, instead of SHB, would not have been remotely as dunked on. It'd still have caught some flak because AST's cards were just so good, but they didn't even really try to balance WHM to have better damage output to make it compete with AST. They could have then had, based on that, 4 years of building WHM into a healer who's theme is using GCD heals to both heal and build a resource, then blowing all of that built-up resource in raidbuffs to compile massive burst damage. Instead, like SMN and to an extent MCH, it's going to be playing catchup to the others for a while

Back then, they had their vision of the 'pure healer', the one who can 'focus on doing good heal work' or whatever they were on about back then, and the experiment was a failure. That should have been the end of it. Instead, it was only the beginning.

For me, I figured the devs would have seen all the negative feedback the healer changes got in ShB and assumed they'd meaningfully change them in EW, especially with Sage, the "DPS healer" being added. So I didn't bother complaining/discussing/giving feedback. Then EW came out and they doubled down on everything. That's what convinced me to start actually getting on the forums. It had almost nothing to do with the damage profiles of fights and more to do with how frustrated I was at their refusal to admit the ShB changes were dumb.

Roe:

So, not to read too much into it, but essentially "EW WHM + Aero 3 = profit"?

Sarge:

One thing I always wonder about when people mention negative feedback is what the Devs see. For example, there was a LOT of positive feedback on WHM at the time. WHMs were, overall, rejoicing in 5.0 that their Job not only didn't suck but was sometimes the strongest choice (in SB it had the reverse RDM situation of being a good healer for farm parties since its raw power allowed solo healing once the party overgeared content easier than SCH or AST could at the time - or, at least, better than the average player could on SCH and AST). I know they look at engagement numbers and they probably saw a lot more people playing WHM and thought "This must be what's popular/desired now", but I also wonder what feedback they see. It's easy to be in some places where there's a lot of negative posting and assume it's that way everywhere, but it often isn't. Contrast General Discussion here which had no less than 5 threads complaining about how bad the 24 man was in some way or another vs the megathread on Reddit where it's being roundly praised.

I'm not sure if it's a localized/echo chamber issue, a different communities/sections of the community issue, or what, but I don't think the feedback WAS universally negative.

Even now, I enjoy all of the healers other than AST, and I'm hardly the only person who does. But here, there's only one or two other people that routinely say they like healers now - Zeastria loves the one healer I don't, AST, but seems to like it, and in the thread here - https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...ealing-actions - there are a lot of players other than just me saying they like healers or want more healing, not more damage actions. In both of Ty's surveys, both of which were probably getting a sample pool of players more negative on healers and current healing than the playerbase as a whole, there were still tons who didn't want more damage buttons, and other than AST, each of the other healer Jobs had above a 5.0 rating in one or the other indicting more overall satisfaction than dissatisfaction; it was less "everyone is middling on it" and more a bi-modal thing of "about an equal amount of people hate it as love it so that the average between all the 0-3s and the 7-10s equals each other".

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Roe:
So, not to read too much into it, but essentially "EW WHM + Aero 3 = profit"?

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EW WHM + Aero 3 = what SHB WHM should have been. Which means that EW WHM would have one expansion of stuff on top of that. We're 'in debt' by one expansion of stuff, like how people consider EW SMN to be 'in debt' by two, since it feels like it'd have fit SB design better. Whatever we get in DT, will be what EW WHM should/could have been

If SE couldn't decipher the data of why WHM was popular in SHB (that being, they mangled AST's OGCD healing potencies in the rework, and made the cards/divination too weak, and WHM super strong for the first time in several years), then they really gotta train in data analysis skills a bit more. But then again, we know they see how many people level BLU and think 'yes BLU is a success' so who knows at this point

(This sounds like the SB SCH discussion all over again...)

Honestly, no idea what metrics they use. But I'll take it at this point that EW WHM + Aero 3 would be good. Meh, I'd be fine with that.

SHB was actually slightly more unique then EW
White mage had long cast times which was fun for me, Astro had their barrier sect which didn't play like scholar (now we got sage which is scholar but more flashy).

I expect them to remove your DOT or something in DT, maybe reduce casts more or something because we can't have healers be unique or fun.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

If SE couldn't decipher the data of why WHM was popular in SHB (that being, they mangled AST's OGCD healing potencies in the rework, and made the cards/divination too weak, and WHM super strong for the first time in several years), then they really gotta train in data analysis skills a bit more.

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I mean they couldn't even remember to update and keep relevant the very mechanic that garnered them all that good will towards WHM for EW.

It's yet another smoking gun that highlights just how little care and testing goes towards healers IMO. Any vaguely competent healer main would have spotted that oversight just like they would have spotted the others.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

EW WHM + Aero 3 = what SHB WHM should have been. Which means that EW WHM would have one expansion of stuff on top of that. We're 'in debt' by one expansion of stuff, like how people consider EW SMN to be 'in debt' by two, since it feels like it'd have fit SB design better. Whatever we get in DT, will be what EW WHM should/could have been

If SE couldn't decipher the data of why WHM was popular in SHB (that being, they mangled AST's OGCD healing potencies in the rework, and made the cards/divination too weak, and WHM super strong for the first time in several years), then they really gotta train in data analysis skills a bit more. But then again, we know they see how many people level BLU and think 'yes BLU is a success' so who knows at this point

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Don’t forget whm was only this strong for the first raid tier. And had no mana problems like astro. The moment eden 5-8 came out astro had everything with “new” sleeve draw and mana gain on cards plus more ogcd and way better mitigation on bubble with 1 min cd.

When you think about it, hardly an expansion never not had problems with healers after ARR. ARR has a few changes here and there but it wasn't a lot.

Starting with Heavensward, that was where the issues started with Astro almost getting something every single patch from 3.01 all the way to 3.4. They were doing every thing they could to try and make people try it.

In Stormblood SCH started off really weak before all the buffs and stuff that added in 4.05 and 4.1. Also WHM was always memed on though the class itself reminded a pick because of how mp efficient it was with Thin Air and the cd to Assize from 90 to 60. Then afteer 4.4 put astro ahead, they finally give all the enmity reductions for whm in 4.5 along with super buffing Assize again there.

in Shadowbringers we again have the start with Astro and they had to buff it twice with 5.05 and 5.1 and changed sleeve draw in 5.3. There was also the issue with a lack of healing that made them bring back energy drain after they got rid of it since Aetherflow stacks were always being held.

Here in Endwalker we had probably the second least bumpy expansion after arr but we still have gotten constant changes for the most part. WHM was 6.1 with following patches making lilybell better along with damage increases with a lower cd reduction to Assize and Dia being made stronger. There was also SGE getting buffs to Phelmga and them trying to make toxicon more available. There was also the major changes to the range of ogcds as well.

Also this was all the way back fropm 3.4 but I think it's still a huge major part when it comes to designing healers. http://https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxi...xt_of_endgame/

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I'm disappointed because S-E relies too heavily numbers buffs. Ability X potency is now increased. Ability Y's duration is now extended. Ability Z's cooldown is now reduced. These buffs are lazy, sloppy, and boring. They often fail to address the issues.

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Originally Posted by Maltothoris

When you think about it, hardly an expansion never not had problems with healers after ARR. ARR has a few changes here and there but it wasn't a lot.

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True, but to be fair, there were only two, they complemented each other well, they were not so imbalanced people were trying to bench one, and the meta hadn't at all built up (fflogs didn't exist), so there wasn't a bit push for balance or Jobs being blacklisted or etc for WHM/SCH.

When there are only 2 healer Jobs to fill your 2 healer slots and they're pretty complementary and close enough people want to take both, it's a lot easier to keep them balanced, probably.

EDIT: Typos

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Originally Posted by Maltothoris

When you think about it, hardly an expansion never not had problems with healers after ARR. ARR has a few changes here and there but it wasn't a lot.

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I’d say this kind of applies to every role and every sub-role though. Whether it’s tank balance or physical ranged either breaking the game or just being kinda lame, they always need to do quite a bit of work when expansions come. In that respect I think Endwalker has had less ‘major revisions’ or chronic balancing issues than any other expansion.
Though, naturally that’s less because they’ve made everything perfect, and more that they made it all basically the same lol

Fun fact, actually there were rumblings towards double SCH being very much the meta pick for BCOB. Solitude ignored it at the time, likely Minori wasn't having any of that but many other progression teams switched over to it and it was indeed highly effective thanks to the extra damage it offered and SCH's being able to ignore/heal through the Infirmity debuff.

As far as healers post expansion go, the healer issues were particularly egregious because they were so obviously going to be a problem right out of the gate though no? Even the tiniest bit of testing by anyone somewhat experienced in the game would have spotted them immediately. It wasn't even just a numerical thing that, HW AST, SB SCH and ShB AST all just sucked and were obviously critically flawed.

The most frustrating part of Endwalker was that even with very little change overall, they *still* managed to goof one of the healers aka forgetting to update Lilies causing WHM to not want to use them outside of downtime or movement.

Man, now I've remembered that even SB AST had some pretty deep problems (unable to click cards, undraw bloat etc). Please dear god let this rework not be a dumpster fire like seemingly every other time they've touched the job =(

There was really no difference between encounter healing in ShB and EW, which is no surprise since they simply iterated on ShB's awful design.
They severely nerfed healing output when the 5.0 rework hit. I still remember testing my level 70 healing output against my friend's level 80 healing output and it was barely a few thousand HP more despite HP pools almost doubling.

It did achieve the, I assume intended, effect that healing felt like you actually had something to do for the first few weeks after launch, but as soon as we got gear from the first Eden raid tier it immediately went back to just solving everything with oGCDs.

There was arguably even less to heal in ShB.
Remember E6S, where even the PF strat was to just ignore Ifrit's football mechanic and have everyone take a vuln stack instead because healing through it was still a joke and you could maximize dps uptime instead? Or tanks simply standing in Garuda's aoes to keep uptime because they had plenty of defensives to spare and healers plenty of oGCDs?
Or E2S where you would just drop one of the proximity aoes (the melee one) directly on the party for uptime because the damage it did was a joke?