Why is Blue Mage a more fun healer than WHM/SCH/SGE/AST

And what does that say about their vision of class design

I agree that Blue Mage in general seems designed in a more fun and varied way than other jobs because you can choose different spells and be a unique blue mage, both aesthetically and functionally.

And when healing you can choose to give up some spells for a lot more attacks than real healers get, depending on how much the content demands those spells.

It seems protected from this job design vision they have for level 90 jobs in that way.

Just for the fun factor alone I could understand someone giving up modern jobs for a blue mage and settling for lower level content and raids instead. There are actually people that do or who joined the game, or stuck with the game, because of Blue Mage. I've met several people who have and consider themselves blue mage mains.

It's not just healing as BLU that's more fun. On the whole, it being shielded from the accursed two-minute meta has allowed it to retain its soul. All three roles are a blast. The only real downside is how difficult is to convince other people to do BLU raids.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

The only real downside is how difficult is to convince other people to do BLU raids.

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How difficult is it to get into them?
I've been tempted into trying it out for a long time but I'm afraid of finding out that nobody wants to go into content.

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Originally Posted by Ririta

How difficult is it to get into them?
I've been tempted into trying it out for a long time but I'm afraid of finding out that nobody wants to go into content.

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What I did was join a random pug group in Party Finder. We agreed to continue another day and we all came back. And then we kept doing it on those same days and eventually got through them all and got the mount. But there are also discord servers you can join to find statics or pugs for it.

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Originally Posted by Noumenon

And what does that say about their vision of class design

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It's not.

subjective opinions are subjective. I find all the healers aside from AST more fun than BLU. And, honestly, the main difference isn't "A DPS rotation", it's that BLU doesn't have oGCDs, so it has to lead heals a lot more, devote GCDs to using them, and they aren't as overpowered, keeping you more active. There's also the ability to customize your Job, but at that point, you run into the "Why is BLU a more fun Tank than PLD/WAR/DRK/GNB" and "Why is BLU a more fun DPS than MNK/DRG/NIN/SAM/RPR/BRD/MCH/DNC/BLM/SMN/RDM".

Whether it's more fun depends on the person, and a lot of people would say it's not. Turns out, fun is a pretty wide target that heavily depends on who you ask.

Well...at least we can agree on that. But most likely its because even with healer spec you can still dish out all sorts of damage with your other spells anyway so its not that its just blue heal spells are fun (white wind is completely broken)

LOL!
I find x job(s) boring therefore i demand rework of their kit.. to suit MY needs/desires.

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

LOL!
I find x job(s) boring therefore i demand rework of their kit.. to suit MY needs/desires.

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Unfortunately on the topic of healers I have to agree. Healer roles are very boring and do need a FULL rework across the board when it comes to healers.

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Originally Posted by Renalt

Unfortunately on the topic of healers I have to agree. Healer roles are very boring and do need a FULL rework across the board when it comes to healers.

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Like i find playing DPS jobs boring and repetitive to play--> but that does not mean that dps need to be reworked or is bad.

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

Like i find playing DPS jobs boring and repetitive to play--> but that does not mean that dps need to be reworked or is bad.

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If healers got more DPS spells it wouldn't change the on demand healing healers bring. But I don't get how adding more dmg spells to healers would exactly "ruin" the job more then making it more appealing.

I think a big issue is you don't even heal much on healer, the design is put your dot up and mash the same button over and over again until you finally get something to do.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

If healers got more DPS spells it wouldn't change the on demand healing healers bring. But I don't get how adding more dmg spells to healers would exactly "ruin" the job more then making it more appealing.

I think a big issue is you don't even heal much on healer, the design is put your dot up and mash the same button over and over again until you finally get something to do.

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The lack of damage to heal up is indeed there, but i dont see how making healers more into dps would solve/better the issue.
I did not choose to play healer because i enjoyed the dps buttons..I enjoy my healer toolkit(healer skills) and i want to use them.

I mostly do DF/PF and get in groups with new and random ppl, so i stil get to use my heals for now at least...
But when i do get an experienced group the dmg output is close to zero.. and you end up beeing a green dps.

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

The lack of damage to heal up is indeed there, but i dont see how making healers more into dps would solve/better the issue.
I did not choose to play healer because i enjoyed the dps buttons..I enjoy my healer toolkit(healer skills) and i want to use them.

I mostly do DF/PF and get in groups with new and random ppl, so i stil get to use my heals for now at least...
But when i do get an experienced group the dmg output is close to zero.. and you end up beeing a green dps.

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I don't see how adding Dmg buttons to healer would ruin the job considering you're going to use DPS a lot as a healer, that's the issue FF14 designs healers to do damage more often then not, even if that was somewhat changed with higher damage Pressing extra damage buttons wouldn't really effect how you heal.

I think something like Astro cards make a expection to this because you're actively giving out DMG buffs while managing a lot more such as healing and your DOT, it adds a extra layer of what you balance compared to something like white mage where it's generally just mashing your DMG skill, even when healing its mainly to build up your burst attack, I think adding more to Healers Damage kit would actually help healers feel more exciting for most types of players and if that's something some healer mains dislike I totally understand, but why do we have 4 healers that all have a DOT and one attack, why couldn't their be some healers in the future with something more interesting and engaging in terms of DPS

Personally I like tanks because of the utility and mitigation they bring, but I don't think tanks should only be about mitigating and holding aggro, I would want something else in terms of damage because it can be fun keeping up a rotation while using other skills.

I understand the want for healers to be healers, but adding 1-2 extra damage skills to some healers wouldn't ruin what makes a healer a healer, I don't think healers should get full on DPS rotations either, but having more to do in down time from healing (the majority of gameplay right now) would at least make the job more enjoyable for me, as I tend to love support roles in games but ff14 healers are just really boring for me to play.

I think what makes a healer fun would be balancing damage and healing output Spamming the same aoe or single target heal spell wouldn't be fun either and damage will always be apart of healers at the end of the day.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

I don't see how adding Dmg buttons to healer would ruin the job considering you're going to use DPS a lot as a healer, that's the issue FF14 designs healers to do damage more often then not, even if that was somewhat changed with higher damage Pressing extra damage buttons wouldn't really effect how you heal.

I think something like Astro cards make a expection to this because you're actively giving out DMG buffs while managing a lot more such as healing and your DOT, it adds a extra layer of what you balance compared to something like white mage where it's generally just mashing your DMG skill, even when healing its mainly to build up your burst attack, I think adding more to Healers Damage kit would actually help healers feel more exciting for most types of players and if that's something some healer mains dislike I totally understand, but why do we have 4 healers that all have a DOT and one attack, why couldn't their be some healers in the future with something more interesting and engaging in terms of DPS

Personally I like tanks because of the utility and mitigation they bring, but I don't think tanks should only be about mitigating and holding aggro, I would want something else in terms of damage because it can be fun keeping up a rotation while using other skills.

I understand the want for healers to be healers, but adding 1-2 extra damage skills to some healers wouldn't ruin what makes a healer a healer, I don't think healers should get full on DPS rotations either, but having more to do in down time from healing (the majority of gameplay right now) would at least make the job more enjoyable for me, as I tend to love support roles in games but ff14 healers are just really boring for me to play.

I think what makes a healer fun would be balancing damage and healing output Spamming the same aoe or single target heal spell wouldn't be fun either and damage will always be apart of healers at the end of the day.

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The issue with adding more dmg spell to healer:
The focus towards dealing dmg will be bigger and will evolve around that.
I rather fight for higher healing requirements ( more to heal up) and more defined roles.
Tank/Heal/DPS should depend on one another.

Tanks are more similar to a dps by design:
Becasue tanks are in their core design a melee DPS w/o positionals,
with defensive tools at the side and "aggro management".

AST have 6 possible dmg abilites at 90, i dont want 1 or 2 more dmg skills in my toolkit.
However i'm up for reworking the ones we have :
Stuff like added effect when used in a spesific sequence!.
(few skills but with depths..and not to complicated/long)

Im all for more options, SE could have created a new healer, that focus towards doing dmg to heal..
But the issue is where to put that in..We're kinda locked into 2 pure healers 2 shield healers..

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

The issue with adding more dmg spell to healer:
The focus towards dealing dmg will be bigger and will evolve around that.

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The each-moment focus on damage-dealing as a healer is already the highest it has ever been, largely due to the glut of "free" healing resources and the simplicity of that damage dealt.

Distributing that focus toward rarer moments arguably lightens that constant burden/focus/optimization-value at least as much as it complicates it.

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Tanks are more similar to a dps by design:
Becasue tanks are in their core design a melee DPS w/o positionals,
with defensive tools at the side and "aggro management".

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Which is entirely incidental, not fundamental. They could as easily have built tanks more around tanking. Just as, by simply not basically paving over healer GCDs with an excess of "free" oGCDs, healers could have remained more like healers. Note that even in that period where relative healing requirements were much higher, though, healers still had greater downtime agency and deeper downtime gameplay available to them than most healers have now.

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Originally Posted by Noumenon

And what does that say about their vision of class design

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A job is not a class. The game has four classes: tank, melee dps, magical dps and healer. A job is a skin over a class.


Cheers

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Originally Posted by Larirawiel

A job is not a class. The game has four classes: tank, melee dps, magical dps and healer. A job is a skin over a class.


Cheers

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Ranged physical dps:

https://media.tenor.com/Rcl4uRH7FIkA...snap-emoji.gif

Real answer though: because BLU is not a healer, it's a dps with extra healing actions, which "coincidently" fits more with the game's combat design, but for whatever reason the devs will die on the hill that healers are meant to be healbots.

Cuz doing anything is funner than playing WHM/SCH/SGE/AST.

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

The lack of damage to heal up is indeed there, but i dont see how making healers more into dps would solve/better the issue.
I did not choose to play healer because i enjoyed the dps buttons..I enjoy my healer toolkit(healer skills) and i want to use them.

I mostly do DF/PF and get in groups with new and random ppl, so i stil get to use my heals for now at least...
But when i do get an experienced group the dmg output is close to zero.. and you end up beeing a green dps.

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Itll mostly solve the healers being bored issue, because theyd have more to do than spam 1 skill.

An obvious bandaid fix for sure tho

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

The issue with adding more dmg spell to healer:
The focus towards dealing dmg will be bigger and will evolve around that.

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ARR WHM had 3 dots, 1 nuke, 1 AoE, 1 OGCD
EW WHM has 1 dot, 1 nuke, 1 AoE, Misery and 1 OGCD

Think about that for a second. Think long and hard. Cast your mind back to how healers typically played in ARR….

Now I know you’re going to struggle to comprehend this but I’ll make it as clear as I can for you:

Our DPS kit isn’t what defines the pressure on us to actually deal damage. That’s the oldest scapegoat in the book and frankly it speaks volumes about your understanding of the game if you truely believe that rubbish.

The pressure on our DPS comes from bosses that can routinely go *MINUTES AT A TIME* without dealing any unavoidable raid damage at all.

We are pressured to DPS because by design if we didn’t, we would spend the majority of fights *AT ALL LEVELS* doing quite literally nothing.

Again, I really don’t think you appreciate how much healing requirements are going to need to be raised to actually get us out of our oGCD healing comfort zone.

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

The lack of damage to heal up is indeed there, but i dont see how making healers more into dps would solve/better the issue.
I did not choose to play healer because i enjoyed the dps buttons..I enjoy my healer toolkit(healer skills) and i want to use them.

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Yoshi-P has already stated that they will never increase the healing demand required of the healers.

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I mostly do DF/PF and get in groups with new and random ppl, so i stil get to use my heals for now at least...
But when i do get an experienced group the dmg output is close to zero.. and you end up beeing a green dps.

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Which is why people are asking for more dps buttons to press when we do get groups of experienced players so we're not pressing one single button for 95% of the time.

The "I only play healers to heal" players already ignore their damage buttons, so nothing will change if they add additional buttons to press for those who want something to do.

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Originally Posted by Noumenon

And what does that say about their vision of class design

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Why is it more fun (for you)? Because it's your personal opinion, which shockingly, we're all allowed to have our own.

What does it say about class design? Absolutely nothing. For example, BLU is one of the few classes I personally just find myself unable to really get into, while I love playing SCH and enjoy WHM enough to use it as a second healing class (but on the other hand I'm not a fan of SGE or AST).

can we ask why a different forum poster is a better troll than you are?

never a huge fan of blu since they were a flavour of the month thing and rather OP. they tend to be better at DPS too from what I can see. there is a reason they are a limited class. like you are a limited troll.

maybe one day they, like you, will become better rounded

Now I'm not on mobile, I can clarify a few more things regarding my previous point.

Again, to be clear here: Suggesting that a more complex DPS kit will increase pressure on healers to DPS is patently untrue and there's prior history and facts to back that up.

Our damage kits are close to as simplistic as they have ever been, yet we are under *FAR* more pressure to deal damage than we ever were in the past and it's only ever gone up as time went on.

The only thing that causes genuine MP issues for us now is raising.

Tank healing requirements are lower in average endgame content now than they were at the start of ARR in Sashtasha.

Crits on tanks aren't a thing anymore.

Untelegraphed tank busters aren't a thing anymore.

Bosses tend to spend inordinate amounts of time standing around casting huge long flashy animations whilst doing absolutely nothing else.

Cleric Stance and it's inherent risks are long consigned to the history books.

A significant portion of Savage and Ultimate's difficulty is centred around beating enrage, and many enrages are mathematically unbeatable without healer DPS.

THESE are the reasons we are expected to deal damage.

The complexity of our damage kit isn't the factor that some people make it out to be. That's just fear mongering at best and idiocy at worst.

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Originally Posted by MisterNublet

Yoshi-P has already stated that they will never increase the healing demand required of the healers.

Which is why people are asking for more dps buttons to press when we do get groups of experienced players so we're not pressing one single button for 95% of the time.

The "I only play healers to heal" players already ignore their damage buttons, so nothing will change if they add additional buttons to press for those who want something to do.

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It will not stop me from voicing my opinion(s) though :P
There are ways to improve the damage abilities without adding new ones too..
which i kinda touched upon - if you read my previous replies.

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I simply share my opinion(s) on the matter, despite of what other may think/say about it..
For im not here to please or seek approvement/validation from others.

We all have the right to speak our minds,
opinions aint facts ..they are opinions
We all have different opinions and ideas of what we want healers to be.
None of them (opinions) are outright wrong or right in that sense.

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

Like i find playing DPS jobs boring and repetitive to play--> but that does not mean that dps need to be reworked or is bad.

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This.

It's all subjective. Healer main in every MMO I've ever played. The only DPS Job in this game I find fun to play is SMN, which is the one that everyone rags on. Different people like different things. Though if I had to say which I liked best, it'd be ARR healers if they DIDN'T have Cleric Stance. I think the problem with modern healers is threefold:

1) They do WAY too much healing with oGCD weaving, meaning that most of your GCDs are on damage spells, Glare/Broil/Malific/Dosis.

2) Their healing kits are pretty diverse (even SCH/SGE feel pretty different when using their GCD heals and some of their oGCDs; Eukrasian Prognosis feels more responsive and zippy than Succor, Recitation+Adlo+Deploy feels different than Zoe+Eukrasian Prognosis, etc), but they all have basically the same DPS kit with just a bit of wiggle, meaning (1) becomes really annoying and there's no escape from it if you don't like it since not even one healer Job has something else you could swap to to get away from Gloifis spam. Some people DO like it, but others don't and have no outlet.

3) Encounter design just doesn't require much healing, and high end encounters have high spikes of near-lethal (or outright lethal if not mitigated) damage. Instead of a steady healing you can address or occasional spikes, it's large downtimes of no healing followed by massive spikes all at once that you couldn't GCD heal through if you tried, so you have to use all your oGCD tools...which brings us back to (1).

Contrast ARR and honestly HW, and also SB (for WHM specifically) where we didn't have so many oGCD tools, so healing was more methodical and reactive (even from the Barrier SCH and nAST), and where heals took up more of your free GCDs by far than they do now. The only somewhat able oGCD (and Macro with Embrace) healer an ARR and HW was really SCH (WHM didn't have enough oGCDs in HW to heal from just those), and damage from encounters was also more consistent over time.

So it's a combination of healer design, encounter design forcing the most boring part of healers to the forefront instead of it being the side dish, and that most boring part also being the single thing (other than a raise and basic single target Cure1/Physic/Benefic/Diagnosis) that is consisted across all the healers meaning no alternatives if you dislike it.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

If healers got more DPS spells...

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Ultimately, a lot of healers don't like damage dealing. Some it's a mental thing ("Do no harm"), others it's just that they don't find consistent rotational performance engaging or fun. It's like contrasting a drummer or bass player that keeps a consistent beat and often pattern for a whole song to a lead guitarist, pianist, etc that will do solos where they just rock out. Even among DPS Jobs, there's a spread from the rock-rigid consistent DRG whose rotation is pretty much the same every time to the high proc DNC whose rotation between any pull and another will likely always be different due to the RNG.

For healers that don't care for DPS rotations, a consistent 1-3 button damage "rotation" is preferable, since they'd rather focus on the fight and healing. The problem is, the game doesn't have enough HEALING to make that really fun. This is the crux of the "more healing" or "more damage buttons" disagreement.

On the other hand, there are some healers that DO like damage rotations, but don't want to play DPS Jobs for whatever reason. I'm not saying they "aren't real healers" or anything, and their reasons can be varied. Sure, there's the "want faster ques" people, and there are people that prefer a more Support role to a Healer one and try to shoehorn healers into that in games that don't have a true Support role, but there are also some that do enjoy healing and aiding their allies, but also like damage rotations.

The issue is, if you change all healers into more damage button/rotation Jobs, then it alienates the former group in service to the latter. And if you don't, it alienates the latter in service to the former. It's one reason I support something I call the "The 4 Healers Model", which is basically "We have 4 whole healer Jobs, why not have some in column A and some in column B, that way everyone can pick the one they like?" Though that gets pushback from people who want EVERY Job to be for them, it's a pretty measured compromise.

But, ultimately, the problem is with encounter design (and to an extent, ilevel scaling). If encounters don't require healing, then everyone WILL be DPSing, like it or not. Even those content with the slimmed down DPS rotation are going to be somewhat bored because they really want to heal (the Sylphie "I just want to heal" isn't satisfied when there's little healing), and those who want more damage are bored because the rotation is boring.

But more damage buttons doesn't fix that problem. It only papers over it. A healer Job with a more complex damage rotation isn't changing the fact that the encounter doesn't require actual healing, it's just jingling shiny keys over to the side to distract you from it. And that distraction only even works on the people that want the more DPS buttons, so it double alienates those who want to do actual healing as their gameplay loop.

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Personally, I think just adding DPS buttons would ruin the Jobs AND the role, since it would mean we aren't going to address the actual issue (as I say here and in my post above). Worse, it makes the healers into DPS Jobs, and at that point, why even have healers? Just give RDM Vermedica and SMN permanent Everlasting Flight and make one of those two Jobs a mandatory party spot and you've done the same thing.

I think the solution is addressing the encounter design first, and secondarily, diversifying the healer kits. For example, WHM can work like it does today with less oGCDs and more focus on GCD heals (damage refunded by Misery for all their GCD heals would mean they can actually...you know, use them), SCH can have more damage buttons and have its oGCDs shifted to more abilities for Eos (so they're kind of a support team of damage SCH and healing Eos), SGE can have a lot more Kardia stuff and a damage rotation so that it's more like a Disc Priest or RIFT Chloromancer healing through dealing damage, etc. Then players can pick the one they like, and encounters will actually require using them.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Itll mostly solve the healers being bored issue, because theyd have more to do than spam 1 skill.

An obvious bandaid fix for sure tho

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Only with those who like damage dealing. Which aren't all healer players.

For the others, it makes the situation worse.

And for those who do like damage dealing, it probably won't really solve things long-term. The underlying problem of low healing requirements in encounters and too much oGCD healing leading to GCDs used for damage will remain. And the damage rotations are unlikely to be more complicated than SMN or WAR's are today, meaning it wouldn't really fix the boredom long-term, at least not in any implementation SE would likely use (again, SMN/WAR level rotation), for the people who actually want a meaty damage rotation.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

ARR WHM had 3 dots, 1 nuke, 1 AoE, 1 OGCD

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Three DoTs?

It didn't get Aero 3 until HW, and it could only use Thunder for 2.0. It was removed in 2.1. In other words, not for most of the expansion, and not for the raid and extreme encounters. I didn't even know it ever had it until you mentioned it once, and I've been playing since 2.3. I looked up the history to see that it was just from 2.0 to 2.1, a period of...from 27 Aug 2013 to 17 Dec 2013, so a period of about 3.75 or so months.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

EW WHM has 1 dot, 1 nuke, 1 AoE, Misery and 1 OGCD

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Mhm. We traded 1 DoT for Misery. A pretty good trade, imo. Misery feels a lot better to use, and when fighting enemies with lower health, actually has a noticeable (that is, visually apparent just looking at their health bar) effect vs Aero 2.

But there were a lot more changes. We didn't have Tetra, Asylum, Assize, or Lilybell for healing. We didn't have Temperance to boost healing and mitigate damage (we had Pro-Shell, but that was baked in as baseline encounter tuning assumed everyone had it). We didn't have instant cast Solace/Rapture. Or instant oGCD Benison to shield, Aquaveil to mitigate, or Plenary to boost Ratpure, which again we didn't have. Nor did we have Thin Air.

We had Cure 1, Cure 2, Cure 3, Medica, Medica 2, Regen, and the long CD oGCD heal Benediction with its (to this day) janky delay, and also a GCD cast barrier in Stoneskin. Our HoTs lasted a full 30 seconds. We had Divine Seal to boost the power of our GCD heals, and we used Presence of Mind as a healing tool since all our heals being GCD meant it actually mattered sometimes. That was the healing kit.

When you needed a lot of healing, you didn't pop PI and Rapture. You had to cast Medica 2, then Medica, then Medica. You might find rare uses for Cure 3 (which had like half the radius it does now) when the party could stack. You didn't have tons of MP so you couldn't devote a ton of casts to Stone/Aero casts. You did a lot of healing with Medica 2 and Regen, and used Stoneskin (which had a 3 sec cast time originally, so had to lead attacks) to deal with things like tankbusters.

Encounter damage was in smaller amounts, but more constant (e.g. raidwide damage for 25% of players' health every 10 seconds instead of raidwides for 100% every 45; random crits on Tanks, etc), and oGCDs were in short supply, meaning heals were actual breaking into your GCDs as your go-to heals, not your "I or someone else screwed up and I'm out of oGCDs", considering WHM had only Benison as a oGCD heal and it was generally reserved for emergencies.

SOMEhow, we didn't need insane healing requirements back then. So clearly, the healing requirements don't need to be insane. The issue is our oGCDs are too powerful AND too numerous. You looked at ARR and WHM's damage spells. How about we look at oGCD heals instead?

EW WHM oGCD heals: Benediction (1/180 sec), Tetragrammaton (1/60 sec), Assize (1/40 sec), Asylum (1/90 sec), Divine Benison (1/30 sec), Plenary Indulgence (combined with Rapture, 1/60 sec), Lilybell (1/180 sec), with Aquaveil (1/60 sec) and Temperance (1/120 sec) boosting defense of the target, and not counting Thin Air. (Or Presence of Mind and Swiftcast, but they had that in ARR, too).

ARR WHM oGCD heals: Benediction (1/180 sec), with Divine Seal (1/90? which was Temperance without the mitigation) (and again, PoM and Swiftcast).

That's it. Benediction. Divine Seal buffed GCD heals (so wasn't oGCD in the sense of an oGCD heal), and PoM/Swiftcast also modify GCD heals, and only one of those was instant (Regen) vs now (Solace, Rapture, AND Regen).

The issue could just as easily be described as "we need to remove oGCD heals" as it can be "we need one more DoT".

EDIT:

Sorry for the length, I am trying for shorter posts:

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Originally Posted by MisterNublet

The "I only play healers to heal" players already ignore their damage buttons, so nothing will change if they add additional buttons to press for those who want something to do.

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This lie needs to die. It kills any constructive discussion.

People who only want to heal also don't want to be BAD. Meaning they do try to upkeep their DoT and fill empty GCDs with damage spells. As long as people keep parroting this line, it prevents any serious discussion. The idea "I don't like to DPS/I like to heal" means "I refuse to hit any DPS buttons" is an outright lie. I don't find DPS rotations engaging or fun. I find them boring at best and tedious at worst. But I do them. I'd rather those dead GCDs be filled with heals. Right now, the only healer that does this is WHM (since Solace/Ratpure are GCDs), and it's also my favorite healer and one generally liked by people that enjoy healing and not damage dealing. The damage kit is slim and it refunds (Lily) GCD healing with Misery so it's not a loss to use them.

"I only play healers to heal" players DON'T ignore their damage buttons.

This is why they oppose more being added; they don't like them, but they feel forced to engage with them, and do so all the time.

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Originally Posted by Noumenon

And what does that say about their vision of class design

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It isn't a more fun healer then the jobs you listed. That is your opinion. Your opinion is only important to you. I do not agree with your opinion at all. Welcome to reality.

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Originally Posted by MisterNublet

Yoshi-P has already stated that they will never increase the healing demand required of the healers.



Which is why people are asking for more dps buttons to press when we do get groups of experienced players so we're not pressing one single button for 95% of the time.

The "I only play healers to heal" players already ignore their damage buttons, so nothing will change if they add additional buttons to press for those who want something to do.

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And of course these Sylphies are incredibly loud on the forums, sometimes they even post three essays in a row.

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Originally Posted by Noumenon

And of course these Sylphies are incredibly loud on the forums, sometimes they even post three essays in a row.

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Do you honestly believe a player like that would research and seek external information in the first place?.
Let alone write and reflect on their role.

BLU lacks instant heal abilities, doing Pom Cure feels like hardcasting cure 2 most of the time. Would be nice if they added something instant. Tanking on BLU is very difficult due to how squishy it is.

Simple - BLU wasn't designed with the express purpose of conforming to a single role, but instead drawing from all of them whilst making it a DPS-centric class.

I would at least say that BLU is evidence that they can do something more interesting and complex with healers without overwhelming the more casual players - IMO, most players are not as bad as they were in Heavensward, so it would be nice.

If for no other reason than to give those players a little more something to do between healing.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Ultimately, a lot of healers...

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Even if healers Don't want to do damage its been apart of the classes for the entire games life span, That will never likely change, in fact it really can't unless you remove DPS fully which would make healer really boring, as one of the core fundamentals of healer is to balance healing vs Damage, that's what makes them engaging in the first place, I don't think healers would be fun at all if you were spamming a aoe heal spell or your single target heal spell either.

What makes good healer design (to me) Would be having you GCD heal a lot more then current healers do but also having extra DMG skills such as a Proc, Such as a varying different DOT from another healer (not all just 30 seconds), Having a full on rotation isn't really needed, but I'd like one healer to be more "rotation focused" maybe?

I think healers Should appeal to all types of players, Like I have said before I generally gravitate to the more "supportive" roles but I also like having a interesting Damage mechs, I don't want to play a "heal only" who just spams heals in a game, I get others may want to do healing only, I want to play someone who supports their team but also brings out some of my own offensive power, the only semi role like that is Tank currently in a sense.

Tanks are actually a good example, of roles that have a set purpose, with some utility but are also DPS, I don't think healers need to have anything even close to tanks, but y'know i personally would make rather have some more offensive capabilities on healers.

I think the most important changes are encounter designs though, I 100% agree that healers would be way more fun if they actually had to heal a lot more, I just think the reason why healer would be more fun is because you're trying to balance your damage and healing, trying to do your best at both.

Healers generally need less OGCDs, more outgoing damage first and foremost, I really agree with that sentiment, but i think healers would kinda be neat if they add more to do offensively aswell (Again not to say that should be the design for every healer)

I also think Astro as it is Doesn't and shouldn't get more DMG options as card balancing is already hard enough, with White Mage/scholar I wouldn't ideally want anything too drastic nor would i want a combo rotation. Sage could ideally have more.

I don't want to upset people who already enjoy current healer, this is just my perspective on the role and why I personally just feel like it isn't fun for a lot of people, DMG buttons don't solve everything I think at least we can agree on that.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

And for those who do like damage dealing, it probably won't really solve things long-term. The underlying problem of low healing requirements in encounters and too much oGCD healing leading to GCDs used for damage will remain. And the damage rotations are unlikely to be more complicated than SMN or WAR's are today, meaning it wouldn't really fix the boredom long-term, at least not in any implementation SE would likely use (again, SMN/WAR level rotation), for the people who actually want a meaty damage rotation.

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You know why those rotations are 'not fixing the boredom long term' for SMN and WAR? Because those jobs don't have to do anything beyond that rotation. WAR's rotation has not changed much in terms of what buttons we press since SB's 4.2 rework, it's been 'keep up Eye, use FC when you're about to cap, dump everything in raidbuffs, IR for free FCs' since then. But back then in SB, there was extra stuff to do on top. Aggro management (or what little of it this game allowed), swapping stances for emergency mit via Inner Beast (and Unchained to prevent the damage penalty from screwing you as hard), moving the boss into position for certain mechanic phases, etc.

A healer with a WAR rotation would likely have their hands not only full, but overflowing slightly, because on top of doing the WAR rotation, they'd still have to heal. Unlike tanks, however, where the timing of 'when to press mit' is set in stone by the fight timeline, there are times where the healer has to adapt to someone standing in fire, or shuffle where they have resources because of said 'unexpected occurences' (eg you Lustrate to save someone, now you don't have that AF to use on Indom so you have to find something else to cover the gap, etc)

i personally dont like blu that much, I do what i have to to get rewards on it, but thats it.. My problem is what others like about it, so its just clearly not for me, its just every instance every fight, no matter what, im having to juggle that clunky ability list, most skills are just flavor it seems but still , i hate the limit on skills, i hate having to swap builds, i hate having to save a loadout, i hate having to redo my bars every time, granter i think there is a way to save bar layouts i think but i dont know how and its not made easily accessible it feels like..

yeah i get it i'm lazy about a side project thats not not really anything but a mini game, thats just me, i just cant be made to care.
but happy hunting to all you out there who do care.

I’m not sure I see the point of this comparison really. Obviously people are going to think Blue Mage is a better everything - you can literally customise your spell set. Which means there’s the added benefit of ‘no general heal actions’ that have homogenised healers. If White Mage/Scholar/Astrologian/Sage had fully customisable load outs I don’t think people would be complaining nearly as much. They don’t though, because Blue Mage is a limited job mini-game thing, so the comparison seems a little ‘apples to oranges’ to me.

It’s not like if they released Blue Mage as a healer one day on a whim that it would still look the way it does. Isn’t the topic essentially saying ‘I like Blue Mage as a healer because it’s not a healer’?

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Originally Posted by Ririta

How difficult is it to get into them?
I've been tempted into trying it out for a long time but I'm afraid of finding out that nobody wants to go into content.

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It is not hard if you like hardcore solo. I soloed all dungeons and trials to learn my spells, but not all the normal raid unfortunately because there is no Echo in there.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

The issue could just as easily be described as "we need to remove oGCD heals" as it can be "we need one more DoT".

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In relation to pressure on healers to contribute DPS?

IMHO it's much more complex than either of the above.

Adding more DPS complexity isn't going to change it, and sadly I don't think stripping out our oGCD healing will radically change things either TBH.

Increasing the value of safety and caution vs raid wide DPS needs to be looked at first and foremost. As mentioned repeatedly, the first prong of that is to make damage taken streakier and more erratic akin to what we had back in ARR/HW. Allow bosses to crit, give them non telegraphed instant cast secondary cleaves and busters, make us have to babysit the tanks and anyone else who's caught in the line of fire.

Secondly, to reduce the ultimate value of damage dealt, it's worth looking back at the 'mistakes' of the past. Many fights either had mechanics that bugged out or simply didn't align correctly if you pushed too much damage and secondly, it used to be more common for fights to have overall somewhat lenient damage checks but with specific burst phases that spiked the check far higher for a moment. T5's adds, A3's hand of pain etcetc.

If the group doesn't need the healer's damage to pass checks outside of those specific windows, then it's not such a problem if the healer is focusing on making sure the rest of the fight is comfy and no one's getting stomped in the space of a GCD right?

Also, trying to categorise and 'speak for' healers that 'only want to heal' is the biggest folly imaginable. There are going to be almost as many differing reasons behind it as there are actual individuals taking the stance. Some might not enjoy the fantasy, some might simply prefer to watch their Netflix. Suggesting they are united in opposing anything is a huge reach.

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Originally Posted by Connor

I’m not sure I see the point of this comparison really. Obviously people are going to think Blue Mage is a better everything - you can literally customise your spell set. Which means there’s the added benefit of ‘no general heal actions’ that have homogenised healers. If White Mage/Scholar/Astrologian/Sage had fully customisable load outs I don’t think people would be complaining nearly as much. They don’t though, because Blue Mage is a limited job mini-game thing, so the comparison seems a little ‘apples to oranges’ to me.

It’s not like if they released Blue Mage as a healer one day on a whim that it would still look the way it does. Isn’t the topic essentially saying ‘I like Blue Mage as a healer because it’s not a healer’?

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I see it rather as - it's possible to heal a group with a limited set of healing skills while having the ability to do damage beyond a single skill spam on this limited job. It works as a healer and it's fun.

Why can't that model be applied on the healer jobs.