Thoughts on Red Sands?

I've never been especially bothered by this personally, but I know that the lack of cover is going to drive a lot of complaints, both from melees and ranged, as seen in C9 already.

My own concern is that insanely long HoT area which I really, really don't like at least at first glance. This removes most options of going through any other path seeing how powerful this is. You can even imagine camping the enemy team right at the exit of the quicksands, and if they dare take another path to not fall right into your camp, you'll still have the huge regen advantage for 30s and they won't, and with that potency, perhaps I'm clueless, but I feel like it's a game changer on the level of a SCH LB or more.

I'd have been happier with this only activating during the environmental heat event or something (run to safety here or suffer through it)...

Edit: another concern being the sheer distance between the final checkpoints and the team spawn points, this seriously limits the defender's advantage, but perhaps on the other end will just end games that are already lost more quickly?

Even though it looks insanely cool to me, I know from personal experience that I better wait and see how it actually plays.

The oasis HoT might turn this into the stalliest map so far, you just dip in once to get a 30 second HoT with a 7.5k heal per tick (which counterbalances the periodic harsh sun debuff dot completely). On the other hand the area is accessible to either team and it's relatively far away from the crystal lane. In addition it's no longer a factor if the push is close to the goal and if antlion or sabotender hazards are active which prevent access to the oasis and the pot in front.

I'm thrilled to see how this plays, it's another unique map that doesn't play the same tropes we've seen in the other maps and that comes with an interesting layout. I love how much they are willing to experiment, they are clearly having fun with PvP this expansion. At least this mode that is.

It does look to me like a well timed elusive jump or gapcloser might be able to counter the draw-in effect of the antlion! Not sure tho.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I've never been especially bothered by this personally, but I know that the lack of cover is going to drive a lot of complaints, both from melees and ranged, as seen in C9 already.

My own concern is that insanely long HoT area which I really, really don't like at least at first glance. This removes most options of going through any other path seeing how powerful this is. You can even imagine camping the enemy team right at the exit of the quicksands, and if they dare take another path to not fall right into your camp, you'll still have the huge regen advantage for 30s and they won't, and with that potency, perhaps I'm clueless, but I feel like it's a game changer on the level of a SCH LB or more.

I'd have been happier with this only activating during the environmental heat event or something (run to safety here or suffer through it)...

Edit: another concern being the sheer distance between the final checkpoints and the team spawn points, this seriously limits the defender's advantage, but perhaps on the other end will just end games that are already lost more quickly?

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It's only a game changer for gold/plat and below rankings on EU and NA (I'm going to pretend OCE doesn't exist) because most of the general population is trash and doesn't know how to play with their team and burst a target properly. In Diamond+ rankings, killing someone within 3-4s is common so at best you have 7500 extra health assuming it ticks mid-burst. On JP, even in casuals people listen to calls and know how to burst so they won't have this issue. Your team should only be attacking one person at a time so multiple people having regen isn't important since they'll be high on health full mana likely anyway. Even if you have 4 people camping the quicksand, you take the other route and your team bursts whoever is alone on the crystal since they're likely going to be out of the line of sight/range of their teammates depending on exact locations.

Looks fun but I'll reserve judgement until I actually play it. I'm sure the usual crew of whiners will be out in full force to blame the map for their performance.

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Originally Posted by VoidsentStatus

It's only a game changer for gold/plat and below rankings on EU and NA (I'm going to pretend OCE doesn't exist) because most of the general population is trash and doesn't know how to play with their team and burst a target properly. In Diamond+ rankings, killing someone within 3-4s is common so at best you have 7500 extra health assuming it ticks mid-burst. On JP, even in casuals people listen to calls and know how to burst so they won't have this issue. Your team should only be attacking one person at a time so multiple people having regen isn't important since they'll be high on health full mana likely anyway. Even if you have 4 people camping the quicksand, you take the other route and your team bursts whoever is alone on the crystal since they're likely going to be out of the line of sight/range of their teammates depending on exact locations.

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And you think even one single tick of 7500 additional health is a joke? Are you telling me that any heal (recuperate, healers, etc) in the game is a joke?

Having a quasi perma regen is not important? What? You know that's literally a hard counter to scholar dots? Or general AoE pressure? I understand that the meta is all about burst, and that's what matters the most, but you're dreaming if you think that a burst is always done in a perfect vacuum, deleting people one after another methodically with them not defending themselves or zooming away. Pvp is way messier than this idealistic view.

Also why would there be someone else alone on the crystal if the team stays together?

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Originally Posted by Valence

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I don't think, I know it's a joke. Go to Mana or Gaia on JP and get to Diamond rank and then come back to the forums and tell me you can't be bursted within 2-3s consistently for the entire match. There is no defending yourself against people that actually know what they're doing. There is no zooming away. On JP, by the time I hit Diamond, I was getting killed in <1s consistently. You will die before you can get an animation off after purify, you can horrid roar the entire team as DRG for a 50% damage reduction and still die before a polymorph wears off. Every single WHM LB, Every MNK LB, Every MCH LB will be combo'd with some other team member to full life you with 0 counterplay and you will have to deal with that potentially 10+ times in a match, consistently. When I say NA and EU is trash, I mean I can go into Casuals on Mana and find regular unranked people better than Gold and Plat. They play the game fundamentally different to the point other data regions look like they're toddlers playing with Lego's without a context of what they're supposed to build. You're just clanking pieces of a pvp kit against each other and having fun, but you don't understand the full potential of what you have yet.

That aside, If a WHM and AST healer can't save you, that heal ain't doing nothing. That heal isn't stopping a DRG+RDM LB full life of 3 people on your team. That heal isn't going to let you 3v5 the enemy team and not lose crystal progress. That doesn't stop the triple WHM LB's. That doesn't stop the Ninja rampaging with Death Link. That doesn't stop the double and triple kill Samurai's. It might help you barely live if you're 1v1'ing a MNK trying to LB combo you because the damage is delayed, but that's not going to stop high ranking people from being wiped and getting wipes to push the crystal. The majority of crystal movement isn't done in skirmishes, it's done once 2 or more people are dead, which happens mostly from LB's in high rankings. All they did was give you a pocket semi-nerfed AST on your team, so anyone used to bursting through AST heals isn't going to care about that HoT. If you're used to dealing with 2-3 healer comps, you're not going to care.

Yes, it's a counter to scholar dots, but scholar dots never did anything regardless damage wise.They're just padded aoe damage for the scorecard like the SMN aoe field.

And the reason someone has to be alone on the crystal is because that's the main route. Who cares about the enemy team camping your spawn if the crystal isn't moving. They're going to have to leave that healing area to be close enough to the crystal path to actively fight. At which point, either bursting efficiently or guard stalling can run out the clock as counters and the ranged members of your team will be able to go and pick up the HoT mid-fight while still contributing enough. It's mainly melee's that would be out of position from having to go and pick it up mid-fight.

Do you have footage and other sources that I could check out?

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Originally Posted by Valence

Do you have footage and other sources that I could check out?

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https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1934718357
Gaia Top 30 PoV
Format is:
time stamp - job of person who died - kill window/reason they died

12:30 match:
13:46 - Reaper 3s kill non-LB
14:02 - Astro full life non-LB
14:13 - Mch 2s kill non-LB
14:50 - DRG 2s kil non-LB
15:42 - Astro 2s kill non-LB
17:35 BLM 4s kill non-LB


23:10 match
24:43 sch 3s kill non-LB
25:46/47 mch 2-3s kill non-LB
26:33 drg 2-3s kill non-LB


31:08 match
31:23 pld 4s kill stun, purify, dead before guard can activate
31:49 sch 3s kill
32:01 astro 70-80% health 2s
33:19 astro whm+mch lb 1s kill
33:59 mch astro lb 1s kill
34:39 mch 2-3s kill non-LB
35:24 drg 2s kill with 4 ppl focusing during blood window
36:09 mch 2s kill from almost full health
36:28 astro 75% health gone during poly with only 4 ppl
36:46 pld either a mch drill or smn lb snapshot for damage through guard -> poly -> drg lb
37:29 mch brd bind -> pld stun to prevent guard if it was up -> drg lb full life.

It can depend on comps as pre-shielding and reaction time can change how often it happens, but will you deal with teammate coordination to set you up for uncounterable lb damage and you can be near or actually full life'd consistently in 2-3s through a match. I can make a list like this for NA but it's not going to go match for match with JP. You won't see something like Match 3 happen on NA unless you have like 3-4 top 30's on one team.

It's interesting but ultimately I don't see that many differences in what happens in the same top 30 on EU (can't speak for NA), since we also have callouts and primary targets/markers. Not being a top 30 myself but lower crystal, I certainly know the gap difference and I can see how some react way better to this than I do. Now then, it's also very possible that I'm underplaying the difference since I haven't experienced myself the JP environment at that level, so there is also that. I'd actually be willing to have the feedback from top 30 gamers from EU as well, although I've been into those games regularly and stuff is also very lethal on bursts.

Second game is actually underwhelming, since getting only 3 insta burst kills is very low imo, be it for JP or EU standards. First one looks like what I experience, last one was very lethal indeed. There is one thing you conveniently omit though, is all the non oneshot kills or near kills that happen, and the fact that they don't all get insta oneshot with MP left either. I'm really seeing both types, but I could totally see JP being overall a bit more lethal on bursts? Again, hard to tell on my end, would probably have to experience it fully, but the footage is definitely interesting to watch.

Now then I don't doubt that perhaps there is a difference in skill, you know, like SC2 had for a long time koreans dominating EU pros and similar examples, but the way you framed it made it sound like they're literally aliens or superhumans ("EU/NA is trash in comparison", "Eu/NA is like toddlers barely playing with the true potential of what we have"). Guess I'm very sensitive to absolutist binary statements, but who knows, maybe it's actually true.

Let's assume it is, it would also mean that balance of the game mode itself would by definition imply extremely different considerations and variables, and would also kinda go into making it almost like two different games altogether, which also means that even if my concerns for Red Sands are unfounded for JP, they could still be for NA/EU (if those are truly "trash"?).

I could also see the lower ranks being way more serious on JP as well, so again, don't take it as if I'm trying to minimize it or downplay everything.

i don't care about it.

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Originally Posted by Valence

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Not so much a huge difference at the high end, but the lower brackets are closer.
NA Unranked to Silver: 5/10
NA Gold/Platinum: 6/10
NA Diamond: 7/10
NA Crystal: 7.5-8/10
NA Top 30: 8-9/10

JP Unranked to Silver: 6-7/10
JP Gold/Plat: 7-8/10
JP Diamond: 8-8.5/10
JP Crystal: 8.5-9/10
JP Top 30: 9-9.5/10

At the highest levels, there may only be a 0.5-1 gap between regions, but in the lower brackets, you can have a 1-2 difference. The majority of JP is a giant tier above NA, which is the why I compared it to toddlers. Even if you check the "season ending" lodestone messages, back in season 4 they updated matchmaking to make matches more competitive for every data center, but only did it for JP data centers in season 5+.

The majority of NA/EU don't have the pieces put together for the fundamentals etc. The Top 30's on NA during old tournament interviews mostly spoke well of specific jobs from JP data centers that they handled different and also their defensive ability to stall out matches. Frequency of shotcalling is another difference. To not rely on 1-2 people in queue for calls allows a different dynamic when you have multiple ppl pinging and updating markers/drawing attention to things. It's the frequency that you see certain elements of high level play and what skill brackets those elements become "standard" in.

As for the 1shot with MP left argument, the reason why I ignore mana is because when you deal with high lethal matches like Match 3 (which is what happens when you don't have 2 healer comps and pld's nerfing burst), your mana doesn't matter for the 2-3s burst type's. You don't realize you're being focused until 1s into that burst already, once you see either a burst rotation like Emp Arrows from Bard or DRG spear etc. At that point, you have a choice. You can back up, you can try to recupe it back, or you can guard. And so the issue is that most times unless you've been focused already in a match, you're not going to blow guard just from 1 person's damage. You often want to re-position or recupe by default instinctively. That's when the follow-up CC hits and now you're stunned/silenced and unable to re-position or heal, and now you have to purify. By the time you realize your next cast can't go through because of that stun/silence and you need to purify, you're at 2-2.5s in after the purify animation. You're already dead and lucky to get 1 recupe if that. It's one of the scariest situations to be in because after a while, you almost train yourself to blow guard early just to be safe because you know you can't hit it after depending. Your best case for a late guard is you guarding with 20-30% health left and you gotCC waiting for as soon as you get out, and you don't have purify because you burned it just to get the guard off. When you can put out that level of damage, it's a guaranteed kill regardless because you wouldn't have time or the ability to use the mana anyway.

I'm not disagreeing with the reasoning, as it's one of the basics no matter the DC at decent level, and I do think Purify is a problem for the exact reason you mention, but I think you still conveniently forget everything else that happens between successful insta KOs bursts, like smaller burst attempts, harassment, primary target rotation, failed bursts (those are legion even on the video), etc. I don't think all of this has no inherent value at all.

Also, what metric are you using? Something arbitrary? (I really, really doubt that JP unranked is equal to NA/EU diamond lol)

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Originally Posted by Valence

I'm not disagreeing with the reasoning, as it's one of the basics no matter the DC at decent level, and I do think Purify is a problem for the exact reason you mention, but I think you still conveniently forget everything else that happens between successful insta KOs bursts, like smaller burst attempts, harassment, primary target rotation, failed bursts (those are legion even on the video), etc. I don't think all of this has no inherent value at all.

Also, what metric are you using? Something arbitrary? (I really, really doubt that JP unranked is equal to NA/EU diamond lol)

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Metric I'm using:
- frequency of listening to shotcalls and having focus
- amount of shotcallers other than myself
- guard rotating between teammates
- not seeing people that look like it's their first match in pvp where they have no idea how to use their kit (paladins not using cover as an example, blm's holding lb's, ninja's not getting executes, people standing in the open at 40-50% health with full mana and not hitting recuperate for several seconds)
- amount of times I see people ignoring the crystal giving free wins
- amount of times I see people overchasing instead of staying with their team
- ease of ability to keep a stagger (NA runs back in like idiots a lot more frequently than grouping)
- LB synergy between teammates

judging individual mechanics for a given job kit is a bit difficult but teamplay orientation wise there's a huge gap. and JP silver would be like plat/diamond teamwork wise. the ability to carry teammates that don't suck and having teammates that listen makes it a better/more competitive experience overall. That's outside of the toxicity difference. I don't see targets to ignore spam on JP, I don't see "Push the crystal!" x5 as much. I don't see "Hello."x3. I don't see people afk'ing or flat out blatant wintrading with 0 healing output and 20k damage as much. I probably have at least 400-500 pvp matches on JP so far and I may have had 1, maybe 2 games tops with a target to ignore in casuals and ranked. I went to EU and saw target to ignore day 1 in casual and ranked.

As for the inherent value of smaller burst attempts, harassment, failed burst, I would wonder what you thought the inherent value of it was. Assuming no crystal progress is made and no1 dies to negate limit break building, is there a reason to care about what is basically just damage padding at the higher ranks? Most times for me those things don't matter unless it's a tight match and neither team reaches 50% so every small wiggle of the crystal is important. *

I think you're looking at it the wrong way. A failed burst, someone escaping successfully, or anything that's not a pure oneshot burst, could potentially have been a kill, but was prevented for varied reasons in each case. Those can be a lot of things, from mitigation, cover, shielding, teamplay, good positioning, defense against peeling, or just somebody defending successfully and suddenly making MP important as a resource. Even with a crushing burst meta, it doesn't absolve everything else either. You said it yourself, assuming no crystal progress is made and nobody dies to negate lb building, it indeed gives no inherent value to the damage that went off for no gain, but it gives inherent value to everything else.

Just out of curiosity, you seem to have played on NA, did you play on EU as well? At high level? Is it similar? Different?

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Originally Posted by Valence

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So far:
S1 - Crystal rank Aether
S2 - Crystal rank Primal
S3 - Crystal rank Crystal
S4 - Crystal rank Mana + Top 100 Crystal + Top 30 Dynamis
S5-7 - vacation, mostly casuals on Mana
S8 - currently Diamond 5 Mana & Gaia + Plat 4 Primal + Bronze 3 on Chaos because it won't queue T_T Mostly going off Brian Ricardo's streams for Crystal/Diamond matches on EU because that happens to be when I can catch him most times so I can somewhat compare it to NA. Seems more skirmishy/messy than NA in general. JP is skirmishy as well but they won't chase as hard as what I saw on stream or even in Bronze since when I queue'd there were like 2-3 top 30's in the matches, either decayed to Gold or world transfer so I see a Endless Conflict with unranked. EU almost reminded me of OCE level griefing I heard of where they chase to no end. Most of what I remember is Brian having issues with synergy/chasing/grouping which shows since he mained healer in stream back then.

As for "making MP important as a resource", mmmmm, I'd say it depends on the comps to start. One thing about JP I learned was how to maximize my uptime on BRD in terms of knowing when I can still put out damage and not have mana or guard or purify because the damage threat of the enemy team is low. I know I'll have time to escape or get healed up. I think MP would be important if you wanted to go back in and you had potential to die, but even then you can get into nitpicky territory. If you had a 2-3 tank comp with 2-3 range dps, I can see MP being important on the tanks to frontline, but not on the range dps assuming they're spread out. If you're in Overtime and forced to stay on the crystal, MP can be important then as well. However, and this can change depending on map and comps as well, I'm looking at things from a 1 target at a time perspective. If one person comes in and soaks a bunk of damage and they escape, they're normally going to be replaced by someone else who ends up holding it for a given time period. Even if you lived and had MP, you wouldn't necessarily head straight back in to frontline and you had no Guard or Purify with the MP you had left. You still play on the sidelines a bit. And because I'm thinking of things in that rotating sense, MP is only as important as the circumstances surrounding it that force its importance or allow for its use. Generic MP use I would say is only important if you/your team fucked up and grouped unnecessarily to give the enemy team free splash damage. But I'd say it's situational where having MP could be useful compared to if you were allowed to just regen up and don't plan on using it regardless of if you have it.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Just out of curiosity, you seem to have played on NA, did you play on EU as well? At high level? Is it similar? Different?

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It would seem at least like the following so far in my experience:
NA - [grouped] [different targets a decent amount of the time due to a lack of shoutcallers. anywhere between 1-3 targets]
JP - [skirmish early, group later] [1, max 2 different targets depending on ranges. 1-2 fights breaking out surrounding the crystal but not on the crystal. JP does not care about the crystal floating in the 20-40% range for free most times as they'll just get a wipe/momentum and push to 50% if not further and end with the LB advantage they have. very momentum heavy so the early crystal movement is pretty much non-important. once the momentum starts and one team has solidified pushing the crystal, then the match stays organized as a group in most cases because now the progress to beat or extend has been set.]
EU - [skirmish] [can have organized calls but has the worst chasing out of the 3, even for the few matches I saw that had ex-crystal's, even later in the match the team can be split up and won't recall/retract chases to the crystal like what happens on JP. there wasn't a "my team has 50%+ progress, let me rubber band to the crystal and keep progress moving, it always seemed like ppl were pushing for a wipe/stagger continuation into the spawn point with 3-4 ppl sometimes instead of just having confidence in the next 5v5/4v5 fight]

also, even within the data regions, some data centers are slightly more chasing/split focus orientated as well. You're much more likely to get chased and backline harassed on Crystal or Aether than you are on Primal. They also each gravitate toward different jobs. Monks as an example can dominate NA but Mana has really good WHM's that shut down riddle consistently so you don't see as many there. Mana has notable BLM's, NIN's, WHM's, but Gaia I've had way more problems with SMN's and MCH's. And that job popularity can change how openings are handled in general while still filling the generic principle over the course of a match.

Now that you mention it, it's been something I've been annoyed occasionally with EU as well. It can be extremely unruly and people tend to chase like crazy. To be frank, this can also be enabled by a lack of team mutual defense and cohesion on the other end, which allows melees to bully ranged pretty effectively in some silly games. Melee DPS especially tend to be extremely individualistic and don't always work with their team. Double edged sword, because it snowballs very well when your team dominates by far (and you know the game is lost when you have the enemy running rampant everywhere around your spawn), but it also can produce the opposite effect when your backline just collapses due to a lack of cohesion. Overall very aggressively focused, which puts a lot of pressure on backlines, but at the expense of your own sometimes.

At least, that's my feeling on how EU can turn out to be.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Now that you mention it, it's been something I've been annoyed occasionally with EU as well. It can be extremely unruly and people tend to chase like crazy. To be frank, this can also be enabled by a lack of team mutual defense and cohesion on the other end, which allows melees to bully ranged pretty effectively in some silly games. Melee DPS especially tend to be extremely individualistic and don't always work with their team. Double edged sword, because it snowballs very well when your team dominates by far (and you know the game is lost when you have the enemy running rampant everywhere around your spawn), but it also can produce the opposite effect when your backline just collapses due to a lack of cohesion. Overall very aggressively focused, which puts a lot of pressure on backlines, but at the expense of your own sometimes.

At least, that's my feeling on how EU can turn out to be.

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Yep, I'll probably be DRG main or might pick up playing with RPR or AST instead of BRD/WHM on EU if I get into those heavy skirmish settings until I hit Crystal. Then I'll be full-time JP since I prefer range classes. I don't get tilted from losing matches, I don't even titled from performing poorly, I get tilted from having a team that does not even try to synergize and protect each other. Even when I play DRG, I'm always checking my backline ever so often to make sure no1 is harassing them while trying to get a pot off etc. Even the small actions that show "hey, I got your back", normally lead me to having better games. Even on a personal level, when I see my team abandon me and they're arms reach away despite me pinging and its not overtime, I stop caring/trying. Because in my head, I'm dead regardless and so if I see them losing the 4v4 and they literally need me in the comp to win, but won't save me, I already know it's a lost match. Any effort I give is just going to get shut down by the backline harasser and my team won't stop it.

And I know it's people who either never got to Crystal/only got to it through RNG/op job, because any true Crystal players that climbed in Crystal should know already that some matches aren't supposed to be winnable. I found out that was literally why you got inconsistent credits. So if you end up in matches with people that are literally stacked and supposed to beat you, the only hope you have is better teamwork if your individual skill is less. To not even try to work as a team is just throwing matches away literally and the voice in my head says "Why are you even here?" To me, it's like playing pickup games in the neighborhood and you never interact with people. You never pass the ball, always want to shoot yourself, never throw as a QB, trying to 1vs whatever and juke everyone in soccer. You always need someone that just hard humbles people like that and matchmaking does it from time to time, but not frequently enough to put their ego down. We had a MNK with a ego on NA for a bit that got hurt when I brought up how they were 0-5 on their main job in competitive and had to go tank. Was always talking shit, top 30 this, top 30 that, but as soon as that 1v1 ability went out of the window and he couldn't harass a backline for free performance, he got checked and went tank.

While I like the change of visuals for arenas, I feel like this is just going to be another mess most people dodge like CCT is now.

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Originally Posted by VoidsentStatus

Yep, I'll probably be DRG main or might pick up playing with RPR or AST instead of BRD/WHM on EU if I get into those heavy skirmish settings until I hit Crystal. Then I'll be full-time JP since I prefer range classes. I don't get tilted from losing matches, I don't even titled from performing poorly, I get tilted from having a team that does not even try to synergize and protect each other. Even when I play DRG, I'm always checking my backline ever so often to make sure no1 is harassing them while trying to get a pot off etc. Even the small actions that show "hey, I got your back", normally lead me to having better games. Even on a personal level, when I see my team abandon me and they're arms reach away despite me pinging and its not overtime, I stop caring/trying. Because in my head, I'm dead regardless and so if I see them losing the 4v4 and they literally need me in the comp to win, but won't save me, I already know it's a lost match. Any effort I give is just going to get shut down by the backline harasser and my team won't stop it.

And I know it's people who either never got to Crystal/only got to it through RNG/op job, because any true Crystal players that climbed in Crystal should know already that some matches aren't supposed to be winnable. I found out that was literally why you got inconsistent credits. So if you end up in matches with people that are literally stacked and supposed to beat you, the only hope you have is better teamwork if your individual skill is less. To not even try to work as a team is just throwing matches away literally and the voice in my head says "Why are you even here?" To me, it's like playing pickup games in the neighborhood and you never interact with people. You never pass the ball, always want to shoot yourself, never throw as a QB, trying to 1vs whatever and juke everyone in soccer. You always need someone that just hard humbles people like that and matchmaking does it from time to time, but not frequently enough to put their ego down. We had a MNK with a ego on NA for a bit that got hurt when I brought up how they were 0-5 on their main job in competitive and had to go tank. Was always talking shit, top 30 this, top 30 that, but as soon as that 1v1 ability went out of the window and he couldn't harass a backline for free performance, he got checked and went tank.

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You'd think top players should know this, but sometimes it's just that they suddenly drank an amnesia potion or something. If anything people are way more disciplined in Plat and Diamond than Crystal on EU in my experience, because once it's Crystal games, some seem to think that they're above team discipline.