How can we save dungeons and varient.

im not gona beat around the bush. this games idea of dungeons absolutley blows... its a total fail and its not being enjoyed by almost anymore anymore. I cant count how many dungeons ive ran hafl asleep, literally passing out and still got through them... or half asleep because of the daily grind just being so repetitive.. I feel like the current story dungeons we get.. are not fit for 4 man multiplayer.. and would have better impact as like instanced duties with ur scion friends.. dead ends is a great example here... the more i do it. the more it looses that massive powerful feeling it had the first time i went in

so... what can we do to save them.. should they overhaul them
* if yes should they backwards manufacture them
* if no, how can they evolve them going forward

I personally want a dungeon to feel like a dungeon.. a large ruin or abandoned place, maybe hidden away from society or discorvered, or some kind of inflitration.. to feel like im actually going somewhere that i know nothing about. thats filled with traps and puzzles.. or guards i need to sneak past or pick off carefully. or secret passages where i can see things i didnt see before. Reasons to go back for loot that i didnt see before.. and in a way where i cant do every single path in 1 sitting because they dont connect. I want some indianna johnes tier puzzles with interesting boss fights where the enemies feel intimiating and i feel like im plundering an actual forgotten ruin, or breaking into a real style fortress using wit and cunning.. with us going to essentially eldorado.. this is the perfect oppertunity to add some good old fasioned plundering - lara croft tomb raider style content to the game.

I get this sounds hard to make.. but honestly.. they have most of these systems in the game.. so its not like they CANT do it. it wouldnt be easy.. and wede not be able to release SO MANY of these all the time.. but if i could go back, do quarn and see more secret areas plunder more loot and learn more lore.. i think i would...

also, i wanna touch on the dungeons gear system. because i dont think its any good either.. i think it would be a cooler system if the gear was unique and had interesting stats that made it acceptable to pass in raids with.. and to balance this out.. it wouldnt exactly be easy to get.. it might feel more like actually plundering. maybe u get it from guards, or find it on dead people who died inside the ruin.. wouldnt it be cool if u could craft it or craft things with martials inside the dungeon.. like level 1 versions of all the gear thats dyable and not locked to a class... idk.. but i want gear to change too because rn its just so.. eh... i miss other mmos where the dungeon gear they own would really make them stand out because it was very hard to obtain and looked super unique and stood out. no more reskins, gear that fits the dungeons theme

also, i wanna adress the MSQ andies.. because i know u want msq to not be this diffcult. the current dungeons you do, IMO. should not be the daily grind dungeons we current do.. they should be seperate and story based..like foreample 1 linear version of that same dungeon that never really changes (so essentialy what we have now) hell maybe they could go in msq roulette XD but this new system of dungeons would apply only to the overworld to keep the game livley

That would require creative effort from CBU3.

Should we hold them to that standard? Yes.

Will they achieve it? No. Nevertheless one should refuse to lower their standards to cater to mediocrity.

I'll be for real, the 4-man dungeons and some alliance raids at times literally almost put me to sleep, there were times I almost passed out on alliance boss fights because of incredibly boring it got.

I think only Ivalice & a few Nier raids have been the only ones that had kept my attention.

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Originally Posted by Kaliesto

I'll be for real, the 4-man dungeons and some alliance raids at times literally almost put me to sleep, there were times I almost passed out on alliance boss fights because of incredibly boring it got.

I think only Ivalice & a few Nier raids have been the only ones that had kept my attention.

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The homogenized format basically makes their new duties feel old when doing them the first time. We at least had variety in ARR, for better or for worse on individual designs which opinions varied from player to player, it felt far less monotonous when hitting 4 player duty roulettes.

You are wrong. I enjoy dungeons. I enjoy deep dungeons A LOT. I enjoy variant dungeons a lot. I loved going through them several times to complete the achievements to grab an easy mount. This post is about how YOU feel and thats ok but don't assume your opinion is widespread.

Dungeons encapsulate everything wrong with FF XIV. They are cookie-cutter mindless instanced hallways designed to be completed by all players with little friction. They are mandatory time-fillers in the msq. The design will never evolve. They drop weak, untradeable armor. They have a high resource cost due to being filled with unique art assets, music, boss designs that mostly aren't reused in more interesting content. There's no higher difficulty variation. Essentially money is allocated into redressing a hallway every year, adding no gameplay diversity.

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

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Baldur's Gate 3 does what you're describing really well. Yeah, it would be nice if FFXIV had dungeon design like that, but I doubt it will happen at least anytime soon.

no. this is the optimal dungeon design

you will run it every other day in expert coin flip roulette and be happy, until the next one comes out 5 months later.

https://i.imgur.com/IvOJjIq.png

I think the difficulty contents have to offer can only do so much. The combat system is to blame IMO. We need something to break our aoe combo loop

I miss ARR style dungeons

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Originally Posted by SerMicha

no. this is the optimal dungeon design

you will run it every other day in expert coin flip roulette and be happy, until the next one comes out 5 months later.

https://i.imgur.com/IvOJjIq.png

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Yeah this is actually the optimal dungeon design. Even if you added extra side paths, no one would take them. The community forced the current dungeon design by just beelining it for the most efficient path every time.
Constant fights about how much to pull? Game decides for you and you just pull 2 packs and a wall stops you from pulling more.
The constant path of least resistance taking just cements the idea there's only 1 true path and then there's the one noobs take and get flamed, so just remove the other ones to prevent the flame.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

Yeah this is actually the optimal dungeon design. Even if you added extra side paths, no one would take them.

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What if it wasn't a choice of shortest linear path or longer linear path.

It could be a wider area that doesn't have an always optimal route, due to dynamically changing things like the movement of patroling mobs and trap activation. So you go in and make decisions in the moment based on the moving pieces of a dynamic area. Each run can be a bit different with rng and time-based things.

Removing everything can't be optimal design. It got so streamlined that it's questionable whether it was worth creating them in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Rufalus

What if it wasn't a choice of shortest linear path or longer linear path.

It could be a wider area that doesn't have an always optimal route, due to dynamically changing things like the movement of patroling mobs and trap activation. So you go in and make decisions in the moment based on the moving pieces of a dynamic area. Each run can be a bit different with rng and time-based things.

Removing everything can't be optimal design. It got so streamlined that it's questionable whether it was worth creating them in the first place.

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Aurum Vale has that and literally every single run everyone hugs the wall because it's the shortest path. If you are a tank and don't hug the wall you will get 3 angry party members.
Face it, constantly chasing the path of least resistance has filed the edges off this game for the last 10 years. Why put effort into side paths as a dev if no one sees them? Why add alternate specs if everyone just runs the meta one? Why give gear variety if everyone just looks up the BiS and uses that?

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

Aurum Vale has that and literally every single run everyone hugs the wall because it's the shortest path. If you are a tank and don't hug the wall you will get 3 angry party members.
Face it, constantly chasing the path of least resistance has filed the edges off this game for the last 10 years. Why put effort into side paths as a dev if no one sees them? Why add alternate specs if everyone just runs the meta one? Why give gear variety if everyone just looks up the BiS and uses that?

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That's not quite the same as the stuff I said. This game has never had dynamically changing dungeons that can't be fully pre-planned. I meant stuff you need to react to on the fly.

Deep dungeon actually does have a lot of things that normal dungeons lack, but it's visually boring and has uniform square rooms. I think the most engaging kind of dungeon design would be a mix of DD randomised stuff and normal dungeon scenic segments.

Your stuff about removing gear variety just sounds like an argument that RPGs shouldn't exist. I don't think options should be streamlined out of existence. MMORPGs should have some degree of individual choices and the freedom to not play meta. But to each their own

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Originally Posted by Rufalus

What if it wasn't a choice of shortest linear path or longer linear path.

It could be a wider area that doesn't have an always optimal route, due to dynamically changing things like the movement of patroling mobs and trap activation. So you go in and make decisions in the moment based on the moving pieces of a dynamic area. Each run can be a bit different with rng and time-based things.

Removing everything can't be optimal design. It got so streamlined that it's questionable whether it was worth creating them in the first place.

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This is a great idea for solo content and could definitely be a way to flesh out Variant. But that's never going to fly with other people. This community always finds the "one true way" to do things and then as Verde mentioned will flame or kick anyone who doesn't comply. The only way to have complete freedom is if you the player are the only decision maker.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

Aurum Vale has that and literally every single run everyone hugs the wall because it's the shortest path. If you are a tank and don't hug the wall you will get 3 angry party members.
Face it, constantly chasing the path of least resistance has filed the edges off this game for the last 10 years. Why put effort into side paths as a dev if no one sees them? Why add alternate specs if everyone just runs the meta one? Why give gear variety if everyone just looks up the BiS and uses that?

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I prefer the illusion of choice over no choice at all. In Aurum Vale, you could fight more mobs to get exp, branch off to get a chest, (which is their fault for not putting the minion in that chest). Also it's just more fun to think you are cheesing the system by dodging patrols than be forced into them. It also makes dungeons feel bigger than they really are like Amdapor Keep's courtyard.

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Originally Posted by Reap00

You are wrong. I enjoy dungeons. I enjoy deep dungeons A LOT. I enjoy variant dungeons a lot. I loved going through them several times to complete the achievements to grab an easy mount. This post is about how YOU feel and thats ok but don't assume your opinion is widespread.

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I mean you're the only one saying that tbh. Everyone else agrees this content is barebones and repetitive

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

Everyone else

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I don't think this means what you think it means.

As for repetitive, all PvE content is repetitive in the end. Most players get bored once they've it repeated more than they want.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

I don't think this means what you think it means.

As for repetitive, all PvE content is repetitive in the end. Most players get bored once they've it repeated more than they want.

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Originally Posted by Reap00

You are wrong. I enjoy dungeons. I enjoy deep dungeons A LOT. I enjoy variant dungeons a lot. I loved going through them several times to complete the achievements to grab an easy mount. This post is about how YOU feel and thats ok but don't assume your opinion is widespread.

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i mean if this is kind of content you want in the game and arent willing to hear out any kind of criticism of it or players ways to innovate it, then the problem is never going to change and the game will continue to bleed players... so for the very health of the game it's better to talk about these things instead of instantly shutting them down without even offering a few peices of construction yourself..

If dungeons remain as braindead as they are, which they have to be if they are not to gate even the worst imaginable players from progressing through MSQ, then I'd rather they remain linear and short. With absolutely zero difficulty, they are boring either way, so might as well get it over with as fast as possible.

The only solution would be to remove the dungeons from MSQ and have them be their own separate content, the same way variant and criterion dungeons are (and lo and behold, they are way more interesting than normal dungeons - just as little staying power, but way more enjoyable while doing them initially).

Honestly, I also wouldn't mind seeing normal dungeons removed entirely and replaced with more trials and raids, criterion dungeons, or more exploration content like Zadnor, etc.
But since "X differen dungeons" is way easier to advertise than any of those, I highly doubt they are ever going to vanish outright.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

Aurum Vale has that and literally every single run everyone hugs the wall because it's the shortest path. If you are a tank and don't hug the wall you will get 3 angry party members.
Face it, constantly chasing the path of least resistance has filed the edges off this game for the last 10 years. Why put effort into side paths as a dev if no one sees them? Why add alternate specs if everyone just runs the meta one? Why give gear variety if everyone just looks up the BiS and uses that?

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I hope people who think like that never design a game then. It shouldn't be rocket science to incentivise different thing. That's why we have game designers. If you solution is to just make 1 option then you have failed in doing your job. It's that simple. Have design principles and don't listen to META slaves.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

I hope people who think like that never design a game then. It shouldn't be rocket science to incentivise different thing. That's why we have game designers. If you solution is to just make 1 option then you have failed in doing your job. It's that simple. Have design principles and don't listen to META slaves.

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I'm not giving a design, I'm telling you why it's like it is. The reason dungeons are a hallways is because veterans would enforce going the one true way, the reason there's 2 packs per section is because there would always be fights about how much to pull.
The community is responsible for how the game is now, the devs just adapted to what people were already doing.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

I'm not giving a design, I'm telling you why it's like it is. The reason dungeons are a hallways is because veterans would enforce going the one true way, the reason there's 2 packs per section is because there would always be fights about how much to pull.
The community is responsible for how the game is now, the devs just adapted to what people were already doing.

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I agree. The point is you don't ablige that mentality because gamers will always min-max the fun out of everything. That's why you need design principles and incentives. The only design principle I see rn is make more people play so shareholders are happy.