Random thought to make things less...easy.

Now I know this will be unpopular but it would be true in the sense things would be more difficult and there would be more animosity between healer and people who don't learn mechanics...

Make Raise an ability used only outside of combat.

How many Alliance raids have you been in in which you pull through because the healers are on top of it and just pick people off the ground time and time again? I've seen it a good number of times myself and started to think...

Man...if it wasn't for Raise...this run would have never got as far as it did.

WoW did this and I remember it was hectic but it meant everyone was on their game. If healing was poor...then tank goes down followed by DPS and then healer. If tanking is bad then tank goes down and healer struggles to keep DPS alive. If DPS is lame then the tank and healer expend their resources till dry and then a wipe will happen shortly after.

However Raise is easy to do here. You just dust them off and it's no big deal. Between Thin Air and Lucid Dreaming my WHM may as well have infinite MP.

Fights would definitely change if Raise wasn't a "fix-all" solution readily available.

It would certainly make wipes more common and reinforce the notion that you can't stand in the fire.

I say no, only because the only fun I have in the game these days is being able to chain res and save a run from wiping as rare as it is.

Please don't take that from me just yet.

I'm not sure a newbie lying dead for the entire fight while everyone else does the mechanics properly would be enjoyable for the newbie.

I get pinchy and mad enough as it is when a tank explodes right before a tank buster and it snaps to a dps [usually me] and I get punished for their mistake. Being glued to the floor because of it would be pure toxic waste.

Radioactive.

With respect, I have to disagree with this idea. To some degree, yes, it would make fights harder. But I think there would be other side effects that are bad for the game.

1) It doesn't increase the difficulty of the content for the actual people who screw up mechanics and die. They simply... stop participating. And they sit there watching other people play for several minutes, not practicing and not learning the fight.

2) It will make fights drag on and on if multiple people die.

3) As you say, it will provoke animosity between players, and not just healers. People will get annoyed at people who die, as it makes their fight last longer. Players will fight over whether or not to wipe the whole group if too many are on the ground, some will intentionally kill themself just to force it. People will kick players who die, and more people will just leave and not want to play the game at all.

4) We will pretty much never be able to clear a Nier raid ever again, but even if it does it will take 80 minutes depending how many deaths there are along the way. And that's if enough people stick around to even bother trying. I think a lot would instantly leave as soon as roulette plops them in there.

5) An individual player can do everything perfectly and still die. People can accidentally pile on top of you with multiple AoE markers, or you get randomly marked with a stack marker and not enough people make it to you in time. Or a noob tank spins the boss around and cleaves a bunch of people. Now, you might say "It will force that tank to learn." Uh, no it won't. If they don't learn from all the people yelling at them to stop spinning the boss, then getting some people killed isn't gonna do it either.

This is just off the top of my head, I'm sure there are more reasons to be found. But also, I'll say that we do have things like Vulnerability stacks and resurrection debuffs to somewhat punish failure. I could see the argument that maybe that's not enough to make an impact and make people want to perform better, but I don't think getting rid of battle Raise is the answer we need.

Seeing the number of times battle raises save the day when PFing EX or Savage by getting someone up in time for a body check....no and no and no again

Well... on the plus side that stops healers from wasting vast amounts of MP repeatedly raising the same 2-3 ppl that decided to go into EX/Savage without ever learning how to do any fight mechanics... >.>

The simplest and surest way to bring back a little bit of challenge, to any content, is to just have a tighter ilvl sync.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

Well... on the plus side that stops healers from wasting vast amounts of MP repeatedly raising the same 2-3 ppl that decided to go into EX/Savage without ever learning how to do any fight mechanics... >.>

---

Most everyone is learning something in a practice party. Has nothing to do with not knowing how to do fight mechanics you've seen before. It's the stuff they throw at you that you haven't or you get in a new way. And when you understand the new mechanics getting the positioning and movements down can take practice. Healers being able to limp the party through a rough patch lets the party practice more.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ChrysOCE

The simplest and surest way to bring back a little bit of challenge, to any content, is to just have a tighter ilvl sync.

---

This! This all day long. There are so many dungeons and raids where the mechanics are trivialized or skippable entirely. Disabling battle Raises is going to do nothing to make Glasya Labolas into an actual boss fight.

Positively it could encourage people to learn mechanics, but negatively it could also cause unnecessary aggression-- and more load on moderation --from people who expect others to not die, if they haven't already.

No thanks. I already don't have enough supporting to do as a Healer. Why remove one of the few things I have to do outside cast glare?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Boblawblah

I'm not sure a newbie lying dead for the entire fight while everyone else does the mechanics properly would be enjoyable for the newbie.

---

And that feeling will make them want to learn the fight won't it? Don't want to lay on the floor having to watch the rest of the fight? Don't die.

Besides that I'm pretty sure Yoshi P even said something about disliking SMN having res and that they wanted to remove it in 7.0. RDM res will probably follow(or should).

The main issue to me is that the community isn't ready for something like this. It probably never will be.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

And that feeling will make them want to learn the fight won't it? Don't want to lay on the floor having to watch the rest of the fight? Don't die.

---

I can understand the logic of this, but realistically I don't think it would work out that way in practice. Imagine a new player just going through MSQ for the first time. Every dungeon, they get to a boss and maybe die because they don't know the mechanics. So instead of playing, they just sit and watch as the rest of the party does the encounter. By the end, they've barely done anything and move on to do more story. Next dungeon, same thing happens. They go through the entire MSQ lying on the floor and basically not playing the game. Or more likely, they don't like this pattern of non-participation and just stop playing. Main Scenario Roulette is currently considered "tab out to Netflix content." Imagine if the entire game was that. Not good times.

Heck, there would even be people who die on purpose and try to pretend it was an accident, just to get a free carry.

Quote:

---

Besides that I'm pretty sure Yoshi P even said something about disliking SMN having res and that they wanted to remove it in 7.0. RDM res will probably follow(or should).

---

If that's the case, it seems pretty strange that Summoner would still have the ability to revive after they dramatically reworked it. Like, wasn't that the time to do it? Anyway, I like that DPS jobs have support skills and sort of blur the roles a bit. Also makes it a bit more interesting as a healer when strategically choosing who to revive when multiple people go down.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fyrebrand

I can understand the logic of this, but realistically I don't think it would work out that way in practice. Imagine a new player just going through MSQ for the first time. Every dungeon, they get to a boss and maybe die because they don't know the mechanics. So instead of playing, they just sit and watch as the rest of the party does the encounter. By the end, they've barely done anything and move on to do more story. Next dungeon, same thing happens. They go through the entire MSQ lying on the floor and basically not playing the game. Or more likely, they don't like this pattern of non-participation and just stop playing. Main Scenario Roulette is currently considered "tab out to Netflix content." Imagine if the entire game was that. Not good times.

Heck, there would even be people who die on purpose and try to pretend it was an accident, just to get a free carry.



If that's the case, it seems pretty strange that Summoner would still have the ability to revive after they dramatically reworked it. Like, wasn't that the time to do it? Anyway, I like that DPS jobs have support skills and sort of blur the roles a bit. Also makes it a bit more interesting as a healer when strategically choosing who to revive when multiple people go down.

---

Yeah, there would definitely be leeches. To avoid said leeches we'd develop a culture of votekicking them on sight. Probably would turn very toxic very fast.

Like I said, the community isn't ready and will never be ready.

Also, don't shoot the messenger:

Quote:

---

――やはり“リザレク”はなくす可能性があったのでしょうか？

So does this indeed mean Resurrection will be gone in the future?

吉田当初は「なんとしても消そう」という方針ではあったのですが、開発チーム内でも「今回はまだ残しても良いのでは」という見解と5分5分となり、「最後は吉田判断で！」ということになりました。拡張パッケージをリリースした直後は、どうしてもコンテンツによる相性などにより、2～3%の火力誤差が出てしまうことが多いです。もちろん、出来る限り無くすように、必死に調整してはいます。しかし、もしそれでダメージが我々の想定よりもやや下振れした場合に、「大きく変更されたのに！」「“リザレク”も取られたのに！」と言われるのが怖くて……（笑）。

Yoshida: Initially the direction was to “remove this skill no matter what”, but our development team was split into 50:50 on whether to remove or to retain the spell. Lastly they went “Right, let’s get Yoshida to decide on this!” and thus the spell remained. Cases where 2% to 3% difference in firepower depending on the content affinity right after a release of an expansion is always there, and of course, we did our absolute best to close the gap between jobs, but it became scary when we got responses like “it was so drastically changed!”, or “you took away Resurrection and that’s what we got!?” when the damage was adjusted lower than expected.

――さきほどの吟遊詩人の問題と同じで、いる派といらない派の両方がいますからね。

So it was similar to the issues with Bard mentioned earlier, and there are players who think it was necessary or otherwise. 吉田「“リザレク”を使うと、MPがなくなるし、火力も下がるから嫌。蘇生を期待されるくらいなら、最初からないほうがいい」という人もいると思いますが、そういう人は固定パーティーなどの人脈に恵まれている人でもあるのかな、と思うのです。逆に、召喚士といえば、「パーティーにいてくれれば“リザレク”の保証がある」と感じている人も多いと思います。つまり召喚士をパーティーに入れるメリットが、意識の中に存在している、ということです。大きくジョブのメカニクスを変えたぶんだけ、保険も必要だと考えました。ただ、この改修が上手く回るようなら、今後なくす可能性は大いにあると思っていてください。 　あと「黒魔道士に蘇生手段を入れては？」という話題も拝見したことがありますが、開発チームに「一応聞きますけど……」と尋ねられた際に、「黒魔道士には、蘇生に使う“迅速魔”はない」と返しました。すみません。「“三連魔”と“迅速魔”で4人起こせますよ！」と冗談も飛んだのですが、「蘇生手段を持っていても、黒魔道士は蘇生しないだろうなあ」と。破壊の力である黒魔法の使い手ですし……（苦笑）。

Yoshida: Of course there are people who think “we’ll be out of MP and our firepower would drop if we use Resurrection. If people expected us to raise them, might as well remove them completely”, but I feel that those who think so are ones who are blessed with connections through static parties. On the other hand, there are people who would think parties with Summoners are definitely guaranteed with Resurrection, and this means players may subconsciously think there are merits of having a Summoner in the party. We thought Summoners should have some form of insurance despite having drastic changes to its job mechanics. However, please take note that the chances of Resurrection getting removed completely in the future will be high if this rework ends up going well.

I also used to see comments about “what about Black Mages, will they gain any methods to resurrect?” and the development team inquired about the possibility, to which I replied “There are no resurrection type spells for Black Mages to use their Swiftcast on”. So yes, I apologize. There were jokes about having to resurrect up to 4 times using Triplecast and Swiftcast but I don’t think Black Mages would be using Resurrection spells even if they have one. I mean, Black Mages are destructive and they are experts in destruction… (laughs bitterly)

---

I get both sides of the argument. I wish there was a good middle ground to it. Perhaps extra rewards for completing content with raise being shut off and what not.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renalt

I get both sides of the argument. I wish there was a good middle ground to it. Perhaps extra rewards for completing content with raise being shut off and what not.

---

If they made it a big worthwhile and not pity crumb rewards, maybe.

It's worth noting that Titan normal/hard/EX as well as Levi EX both had perma death mechanics and they were removed. This mostly appeared to get these fights in line with other fights that have knock off abilities/arenas but the fact the "no res" mechanic was taken out pretty clearly shows that this is not at all something we should either expect or encourage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fyrebrand

1) It doesn't increase the difficulty of the content for the actual people who screw up mechanics and die. They simply... stop participating. And they sit there watching other people play for several minutes, not practicing and not learning the fight.

---

This is also another potential reason for those mechanics being removed as well. This suggestion just comes off as someone wanting to lord of others / being seen as "the savior" due to a system that has no reason to exist in the first place.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Most everyone is learning something in a practice party. Has nothing to do with not knowing how to do fight mechanics you've seen before. It's the stuff they throw at you that you haven't or you get in a new way. And when you understand the new mechanics getting the positioning and movements down can take practice. Healers being able to limp the party through a rough patch lets the party practice more.

---

I'm not talking about practice parties. I'm talking about the leeching tools that enter farming parties that spend most of the time on the floor getting raised.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xirean

It's worth noting that Titan normal/hard/EX as well as Levi EX both had perma death mechanics and they were removed.

---

Oh yeah, I forgot about those! The first encounter on the ship in Dun Scaith used to be the same way, if you got knocked off. I think there's room for certain rare fights to have quirks like that, to add a twist and crank up the tension of certain mechanics. I just wouldn't want it to be the norm for all content. That way, we curse and blame the boss monster, and not the players.

Quote:

---

This suggestion just comes off as someone wanting to lord of others / being seen as "the savior" due to a system that has no reason to exist in the first place.

---

Players might seek to abuse the system in that way, but I think Renalt's intentions with this topic were good. They were just presenting an idea to increase the sense of challenge in the game. It's just a suggestion. Sort of like releasing a game in "Early Access," so players can discover all the bugs that may not have been apparent.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

I'm not talking about practice parties. I'm talking about the leeching tools that enter farming parties that spend most of the time on the floor getting raised.

---

This would affect practice parties. There was nothing in the OP saying it would only apply to certain content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

This would affect practice parties. There was nothing in the OP saying it would only apply to certain content.

---

Depends on how people run practice parties TBH. There are people who intentionally die early on in a practice party because they can focus more on watching for various tells or patterns for later if they aren't scrambling around trying to do them all blind. These however tend to be people that rely more on brain memory than muscle memory to do things.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renalt

Now I know this will be unpopular but it would be true in the sense things would be more difficult and there would be more animosity between healer and people who don't learn mechanics...

Make Raise an ability used only outside of combat.

---

They've specifically made Raise available without CD in content (with a few exceptions like Criterion Savage) because they don't want mistakes by one party member to feel punishing for the entire party. That isn't fun. They want parties to feel like they can recover from deaths to continue to progress on the fight.

What's ironic is that current healer design is negatively impacted by that. Because healers are the one role that a party may not be able to Raise in combat (no 2nd healer, no SMN, no RDM means no Raise for healer), they've simplified healer design theoretically to make it easier for healers to focus on their own survival so they can Raise everyone else who is dying while they get to focus on their more complex and generally more interesting toolkits.

Your infinite mana is because you very little to do other than stay alive and spam Stone/Glare.

Also, Raise doesn't fix stupid. Parties can still end up wiping even with Raise available. Not being able to Raise people isn't going to encourage lazy players to get better. It's just going to encourage more parties to vote to disband.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

And that feeling will make them want to learn the fight won't it? Don't want to lay on the floor having to watch the rest of the fight? Don't die.

---

It's actually the opposite. I newbie who dies to the first mechanic and spends the rest of the fight on the floor is FAR more likely to leave thinking "that sucked, I'm never doing it again", than "I want to practice that til I get it right." Especially if it keeps happening every time they do a new piece of content.