G-give it Back T---T; !! (Scholar Edition)

Sorry to steal the thread concept, but I think this needs to be said:

https://i.imgur.com/cz2mms6.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/gP6tzoI.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/mdXaYkN.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Qc5TV3a.jpg

Give them back Yoshida.

Scholar KINDA still has Bane but only in PvP. You put your DoT on someone and then use Emergency Tactics on them.

Ladies and gentlemen, adventurers of Eorzea, I implore you to strap in and brace yourselves for a titanic tirade that's going to span more words than a Chocobo can sprint in an hour. We're diving headfirst into the depths of the debate about whether Scholar's Miasma and Miasma II should ever grace our healers' spellbooks, and let me tell you right now – they should ABSOLUTELY NEVER make a comeback! Why, you ask? Because HEALERS, my friends, are here to HEAL, and it's time we shouted this from the highest peaks of Coerthas!

So, grab your comfy chairs, prepare some snacks, and ensure you have plenty of caffeinated beverages on standby because we're about to embark on an epic journey through a labyrinthine argument that'll leave no stone unturned, no argument unaddressed, and no doubt that Scholar's Miasma and Miasma II DON'T BELONG in our healer repertoire! Buckle up, folks – it's going to be a wild ride!

Chapter 1: The Healer's Solemn Vow – To HEAL and HEAL ONLY!

First things first, let's establish a fundamental principle that should be as ingrained in every healer's soul as a Lalafell's love for pom-poms – HEALERS ARE HERE TO HEAL! We're not some sort of DPS hybrid that can gallivant around dealing damage one moment and healing the next. No, our primary mission, nay, our SACRED OATH, is to ensure the well-being, the very survival of our party members, come what may!

Chapter 2: The Delusion of Variety – Scholar's Already Got It All!

Now, I've heard the arguments. I've seen the fervent pleas of those who want to bring back Miasma and Miasma II, and they claim it's all about VARIETY. They want Scholars to have a cornucopia of abilities, to feel like true masters of arcane arts. But hold on a moment, adventurer! Before you go dancing with the idea, let's take a stroll through the Scholar's spellbook, shall we?

Scholar's toolkit is like a treasure trove of healing goodness. We've got healing spell s, shields, utility abilities – it's a smorgasbord of magic at our fingertips. Do we truly need Miasma and Miasma II cluttering up the place? I think not!

Chapter 3: The Anecdotal Odyssey – Disasters Unleashed by Miasma and Miasma II!

Let me regale you with tales of calamity, my fellow adventurers, anecdotes that will chill your bones and make you think twice about ever wishing for the return of Miasma and Miasma II. Picture this: a harrowing raid battle where your party teeters on the edge of oblivion. The tank's HP is plummeting faster than a meteor falling from the heavens, and your DPS are tap-dancing on the brink of death.

In this CRUCIAL MOMENT, what would you do? Would you CAST Miasma and Miasma II, or would you FOCUS on saving your party's collective butt by spamming heals, shields, and whatever else it takes to keep 'em breathing? That's right, you'd be doing everything in your power to ensure your party survives! Casting Miasma and Miasma II? That's a one-way ticket to WIPE CITY!

Chapter 4: The Infamous Cast Time – Slower Than a Snail's Slumber!

And let's not even get started on Miasma's CAST TIME – it's SLOWER than a snail on a leisurely stroll through the Shroud. In the time it takes to cast that spell, you could've saved your tank from turning into a crispy Lalafell. We're talking about fractions of a second that can mean the difference between victory and defeat. Priorities, people, PRIORITIES!

Chapter 5: The Fantasy vs. Functionality Conundrum – What Matters Most?

I get it; some folks want to feel like all-powerful wizards, flinging spells left and right. They want the FANTASY of being a master of arcane arts. But here's the deal – HEALERS AREN'T DPS MACHINES. We have a CRUCIAL ROLE to play, and that's to KEEP OUR PARTY ALIVE, NOT just look cool throwing damage spells.

In conclusion, I'm not mincing words here – Miasma and Miasma II have NO place in a healer's toolkit. Our focus should be on HEALING, keeping our party alive, and making sure we all survive to tell the tale. So, let's put the Miasmas to rest and get back to what we do best – SAVING LIVES!

Obviously making a parody of someone else is going to net a ban at some point. Not going to say it will be quick but it will happen.

i support you, scholar brothers and sisters

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Sorry to steal the thread concept, but I think this needs to be said:

https://i.imgur.com/cz2mms6.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/gP6tzoI.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/mdXaYkN.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Qc5TV3a.jpg

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Selene's haste buff....

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Originally Posted by Anienai

Selene's haste buff....

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None of the DPS want Attack Speed though, not externally though. While I'd like to see Selene return, I'd make it a choice between healing and utility, not healing and attack buffs, because attack buffs is the better choice 95% of the time.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

None of the DPS want Attack Speed though, not externally though. While I'd like to see Selene return, I'd make it a choice between healing and utility, not healing and attack buffs, because attack buffs is the better choice 95% of the time.

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I'm a filthy spell speed blm and I loved it!

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Originally Posted by OgruMogru

I'm a filthy spell speed blm and I loved it!

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Skill/Spell Speed is fine on some jobs, but even then, the amount you want is built into your build.

Honestly, I agree.

The "4 Healers Model" I constantly push is simple in concept, but here applies: The Healers should all play differently, so that all different kinds of players can take on the role and enjoy it. Like how Tanks have GNB as a basically Melee DPS option in the "Blue" role.

Personally, I wouldn't enjoy it, but I do think that SCH having its SB kit back would be one of the quickest ways to make a lot of currently jaded healers happy, since they'd have that option of a more DPS focused Job. While I would say that some of the kit would probably have to be pruned and some abilities combined (Fey Blessing heal added to Whispering Dawn instead of being two separate buttons, for example...?), as adding 4 buttons to SCH would make it the Job with the most actions by far, having 2 or 3 more than PLD has today...I do think it would be best for the game to do so.

I DON'T think it should be done to all healer Jobs, as some were decidedly worse then (SB WHM, and I will die on this hill, was the single worst iteration of WHM in FFXIV; EW is miles better), but SCH is one case of the SB kit probably being an improvement, as long as it gets to keep some of the things it has learned since, like Expedience and Seraph.

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Overall, I fully support this idea. o/

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

None of the DPS want Attack Speed though, not externally though. While I'd like to see Selene return, I'd make it a choice between healing and utility, not healing and attack buffs, because attack buffs is the better choice 95% of the time.

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They didn't when TP existed but now it has it's place in certain builds.

In FF14 Classic servers you have it!

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

They didn't when TP existed but now it has it's place in certain builds.

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All I'm saying is if I'm playing Dancer, and someone gives me an attack speed buff, I will immediately click it off, and I hope they notice.

I wonder...lets say that Arcanist: Summoner & Scholar, got back their Dots.
Would they suddenly become the Only Healers ever wanted? With Sage, Funny enough the Shield Healers would be the only DPS Savy Healers.

Or maybe once again White Mage would get ditched, if Astro gets reworked somehow to be something similar to what it used to be in SB as a Support Healer. A few DPS options, but work like dancer and Sage where they main support tag a Targeted party Member. Or get back their party support ala Royal Road
Would be the Birth of a strange new Meta XD

Bruh who the hell cares about meta, I just want my dots back.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

I wonder...lets say that Arcanist: Summoner & Scholar, got back their Dots.
Would they suddenly become the Only Healers ever wanted?

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Unlikely. SCH has long been meta (since...ARR?), I think every expansion SCH has been part of the meta. But it's almost always (if not always) been played less than WHM, as has AST. In some subsections of content (e.g. Savage), it can go one way or the other, but in general and overall in the playerbase, this has always been true. Even in high end content, WHM has still been represented, even when in reduced percentages. Even right now, WHM is only 3% of the top 50 finishes in the P9S, but in the rest is 20%, 19%, 11%, and 24% (P2) respectively per the abacus.

You would see a lot of players that want more DPS focus in their rotation swapping to SCH, but you'd still see a lot of the other healer types at the same time, like as not.

At the end of the day, in low end content, it genuinely doesn't matter, and in high end content, outside of specifically the speedrunning community, it's the player (since very high end players can do good on most any Job in their role and sometimes off-roles) and what they personally prefer that teams tend to take.

Right now, SCH/AST is the meta because of all the support and AST basically being "barrier-lite pure healer" making it hyper-meta, and WHM and SGE are still more played in most content in the game and somewhat healthy in representation in the top 50 kills (which IS the speedrunning community, come to think of it), and even more represented outside of it. The meta would always be SCH/AST since buffs and barriers-a-plenty, but that doesn't really change how most people play, it seems. If history is a guide, anyway.

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So giving SCH and AST their SB kits back doesn't really have much in the way of detriment - everything has a cost as well as benefits, but it's a pretty low-cost/high net benefit thing. Making WHM back to the SB kit would be a lot higher cost/lower benefit, though, and possibly net negative.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

I wonder...lets say that Arcanist: Summoner & Scholar, got back their Dots.
Would they suddenly become the Only Healers ever wanted? With Sage, Funny enough the Shield Healers would be the only DPS Savy Healers.

Or maybe once again White Mage would get ditched, if Astro gets reworked somehow to be something similar to what it used to be in SB as a Support Healer. A few DPS options, but work like dancer and Sage where they main support tag a Targeted party Member. Or get back their party support ala Royal Road
Would be the Birth of a strange new Meta XD

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Shield healers are already the only healers who are actually wanted

AST survives by virtue of it being meta in top end groups because of its scaling buffs and WHM is WHM

Objectively double shield is the best comp in basically every single fight this expansion

I miss those and Selene's abilities, too. It felt so good to play Scholar back then. :<

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Skill/Spell Speed is fine on some jobs, but even then, the amount you want is built into your build.

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I wish Speed gets to be reworked in Dawntrail to be more attractive to a wider array of jobs, but not even sure what they can make of it if the current 2min meta keeps dominating the job design...

I miss being able to tell my Faerie who to heal, and issuing commands to her while I'm already casting, too.

Doubly so when I'm not in a party or in a 24 where the main tank (taking auto attacks) is not in my own.

I think those changes to SCH hit the job at an even more foundational level than the offensive tools being pulled, because it changed how the job was able to tackle its own ROLE.

The only healer actions that make any sense to be limited to party members are AoE heals because they're powerful enough already and Rescue to curb griefing at least somewhat.

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Originally Posted by Post

I miss being able to tell my Faerie who to heal, and issuing commands to her while I'm already casting, too.

Doubly so when I'm not in a party or in a 24 where the main tank (taking auto attacks) is not in my own.

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Funny thing is, old embrace macros / telling the fairy who to heal is literally the basis for Kardia.

SCH got it taken away, and SGE to the ability.

On topic, I fully expect them to try to take away Energy Drain again in Dawntrail. There could actually be an easy way to do it if they did it right. Decouple Energy Drain from Aetherflow and just make Aetherflow give back the MP. Balance Energy Drain accordingly (I personally think it should be a 2 charge aoe with a a small drop off)

I wouldn't expect everyone to be aware because they've gone back and forth on it so many times, but current Aetherflow is 20% MP with Energy Drain restoring only HP and not MP.

It's been this way since it was readded in ShB or EW launch.

But, Kardia has the same problem Eos does, it can't heal people not in your party. Why the hell not? Healers are boring enough IN grouped content, they don't need even LESS they can do outside of it. Let 24 man bosses auto attack enough that SGEs in different alliances should want to Kardion the current tank, and then, ALLOW them to.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

I wish Speed gets to be reworked in Dawntrail to be more attractive to a wider array of jobs, but not even sure what they can make of it if the current 2min meta keeps dominating the job design...

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It'd need some capacity to flex its excess and/or to be less bottlenecked by components that'd penalize being rushed. Or to just be straight up overpowered outside of considerations for rDPS/aDPS margining as to be worth taking despite the synergy lost.

I think they can get away with ED being removed, if they replace it with something that is 'what to use spare Aetherflow on, but not damage'. There will of course be the people who complain that 'great another avenue of skill expression gone', though. I would like to see a ST shield Flowspender, that can spread the shield via Deploy (so that we can apply a shield fully OGCD with another method than Consolation), and because it's a shield, if nothing else you can lob it at the MT to help them stay alive a bit more

But, the fact that Energy Drain, clunky as it is, weak as it is, STILL gets so much pushback whenever it's removed, and the devs have to cave to such loud outcry about it, despite it being so 'bad' in terms of it's design, shows how little healers actually have besides ED. Like, I doubt the complaints about 'we need ED for skill expression' would be even remotely as loud if SCH had 'literally any other skill expression tools'. If the devs are so hellbent on removing it (as shown by all the times they've tried to, and then relented), then maybe they should consider replacing it with something interesting, instead of just removing it and leaving 'nothing lol' in it's place

I would quit this game if they removed Energy Drain from Scholar
Your move, Square Enix

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

I think they can get away with ED being removed, if they replace it with something that is 'what to use spare Aetherflow on, but not damage'. There will of course be the people who complain that 'great another avenue of skill expression gone', though. I would like to see a ST shield Flowspender, that can spread the shield via Deploy (so that we can apply a shield fully OGCD with another method than Consolation), and because it's a shield, if nothing else you can lob it at the MT to help them stay alive a bit more

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But then a sage would just overwrite any shield you throw out anyways so why bother XD [semi joking but laughing but crying but laughing but...]

I would really love Selene's skill set to come back... But since they will never do that as they can't design fights where anything else other than the haste buff would be useful. So Shadow Flare would be a very welcome replacement.

And while we're on the subject of bringing back Shadow Flare... Flaming Arrow for BRD please.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

But, the fact that Energy Drain, clunky as it is, weak as it is, STILL gets so much pushback whenever it's removed, and the devs have to cave to such loud outcry about it, despite it being so 'bad' in terms of it's design, shows how little healers actually have besides ED.

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The complaints are less about skill expression and more about how SCH literally breaks when ED is removed. I played SCH from ShB early access until they gave us ED back, it was not fun, we were basically a Lustrate overheal bot. Sacred Soil and Excog are not useful all of the time, so ED is basically the only thing we can use for dumping extra Aetherflow stacks before refreshing. If they replaced ED with an Aetherflow dump that's reasonably useful in any circumstance, then the pushback for its removal would probably not be that big.

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Originally Posted by Renalt

Obviously making a parody of someone else is going to net a ban at some point. Not going to say it will be quick but it will happen.

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I feel like I know what are you talking about exactly & I don't think I can unsee that anymore.

/playdead

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...-healer-issues

There's a big thread in the healer section atm basically fed up with the Shadowbringers Healer design onwards, alot of people were outright unhappy with the whole gutting of offensive abilites with healers in general. Scholar Expecially suffers the worst being gutted to a mere 3 DPS buttons. They need to just abandon this whole "pure healer" design and focus on a more "combat medic" approach where healers are essentially rear line support and long range DPS when people aren't in danger.

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Originally Posted by Raiya

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...-healer-issues

There's a big thread in the healer section atm basically fed up with the Shadowbringers Healer design onwards, alot of people were outright unhappy with the whole gutting of offensive abilites with healers in general. Scholar Expecially suffers the worst being gutted to a mere 3 DPS buttons. They need to just abandon this whole "pure healer" design and focus on a more "combat medic" approach where healers are essentially rear line support and long range DPS when people aren't in danger.

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Uh...

...strong No.

Some people feel that way, but many don't want to be budget DPS or DPS at home or ARPG "supports". They want to be HEALERS, and this game did have that as a role in 1.X and 2.X and 3.X excepting SCH getting squirrely. Not everyone wants to be a "long range DPS" who is there just to make the other DPS players have more fun. A "support b--ch", if you will.

People wanting to HEAL on the HEALER role isn't a weird thing. People wanting to DPS on the HEALER role kinda is. But a good game can accommodate all kinds. WoW, for example, had Discipline "heal by dealing damage" Priests alongside Holy Priests. RIFT had Chloromancer Mages (heal by dealing damage) alongside more traditional "target party member, cast heal" healers. ARR did this with WHM as a healer and SCH as a support hybrid healer/DPSer. Everquest managed this 25 years ago. The idea that the only option is going "dps at home who occasionally heals the REAL dpsers so they can have fun fighting the dragon" is absurd.

EDIT:

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Originally Posted by BaconBits

Common Renathras L, move along people.

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Funny how I can post an opinion, actually explained.

Someone posts a snarky rebuttal that adds exactly zero to the conversation: 6 likes.

This is why we can't have nice things/nuanced and respectful conversations, folks. Be better, people.

Common Renathras L, move along people.

Nah.. I want more healing abilities that interact more with my fairies and more opportunities to use them. If I wanted to DPS, well... I'd play a DPS

Edit: I'm not against damage rotation variety for Healers, I just don't find these old skills that interesting to bring back

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

Nah.. I want more healing abilities that interact more with my fairies and more opportunities to use them. If I wanted to DPS, well... I'd play a DPS

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I feel the same way about tanking. I play tank to tank, not to DPS. Why do I have to attack?

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I feel the same way about tanking. I play tank to tank, not to DPS. Why do I have to attack?

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I don't know if you're being cheeky, but I'll take this in good faith... I'm probably making a mistake, but...

I never said I don't wanna contribute to the DPS pool, but I want my healing interactions to be the core of my gameplay, not pretending pressing a single button to spread a DoT is very much interactive or interesting than smashing the floor with another single button.

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

I don't know if you're being cheeky, but I'll take this in good faith... I'm probably making a mistake, but...

I never said I don't wanna contribute to the DPS pool, but I want my healing interactions to be the core of my gameplay, not pretending pressing a single button to spread a DoT is very much interactive or interesting than smashing the floor with another single button.

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That’s the thing people want more DPS options because square has shown they are utterly incapable of adding interesting healer actions. We all know what DT 90-100 skills will be

92- dia 2 and glare 4
95- random healer action nobody asked for and people don’t really use
100- big new massive AOE heal we don’t need for the damage we take
(Possible deletion of 1 or 2 of the old heals such as fey blessing)

When that’s the thing we are gonna get and we know that the healing kits will never be made more interactive we may as well ask for that level 95 skill to be a DPS skill instead

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

Nah.. I want more healing abilities that interact more with my fairies and more opportunities to use them. If I wanted to DPS, well... I'd play a DPS

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So when the game presents you with opportunities to use your healing abilities/spells more do you take them or do you not do that kind of content? Genuine question.

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

I don't know if you're being cheeky, but I'll take this in good faith... I'm probably making a mistake, but...

I never said I don't wanna contribute to the DPS pool, but I want my healing interactions to be the core of my gameplay, not pretending pressing a single button to spread a DoT is very much interactive or interesting than smashing the floor with another single button.

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I was being cheeky, though not to be mean. I just really dislike that statement and find that it's harmful to the development of healer kit design and healer gameplay. Healer gameplay should involve consciously making choices around healing, but that doesn't mean healers don't deserve to have a modest library of offensive spells to ensure that when they do go on the offensive, that there's is some spark of engagement there just like with the tanks--the other non-DPS role. Damage is the central aspect to gameplay that revolves around combat. That is an unavoidable truth to any game that features combat anywhere, and no role can fully escape that reality.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

https://i.imgur.com/Qc5TV3a.jpg

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Ngl I especially love that the defunct Shadow Flare was also a mitigation tool for dungeon pulls.