Hypothetical 7.0 Job Changes; PvP Jobs in PvE

Everyone seems to enjoy most jobs in PvP more than their PvE iterations. So, hypothetically how would you react if they announced that in Dawntrail every job would now work as it does in PvP (with a few tweaks and additions). Is this ideal or nightmare fuel?

definitely nightmare fuel because I don't want MNK to lose its current combo structure lol

Personally I’d love if they did this for Scholar lol. Give Adloquium a damage increase, Biolysis a damage reduction, make Deployment 2 charges, etc. Add in current PvE abilities, fairy abilities etc and it’d be much more fun I think.

I wouldn’t like if they did the same for Bard though. I get it’s a ‘button consolidation’ thing for PvP, but I’d hate to see bard songs become a byproduct of dps skills like Frontliner’s March / Forte from Apex Arrow/Blast Arrow. I prefer Warden’s Paean and Nature’s Minne being separate buttons, too

its fine in pvp because engagements there are generally short and sweet. i feel like pvp kits in longer fights like savage and ultimates would really highlight their lack of depth and become really boring.

there's are elements in some of the pvp kits i wouldn't mind seeing in pve, but i feel like just straight up transferring the kits over 1:1 wouldn't work. maybe i'm wrong.

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Originally Posted by SargeTheSeagull

Everyone seems to enjoy most jobs in PvP more than their PvE iterations. So, hypothetically how would you react if they announced that in Dawntrail every job would now work as it does in PvP (with a few tweaks and additions). Is this ideal or nightmare fuel?

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It would need more than just a few tweaks to make it work... the whole encounter structure would need to change a lot.

However, there are many concepts and smaller bits in the PVP counterparts that can be incorporated in their PVE versions to add more of an exciting flavor, but that would also probably need the 2min meta to be dismantled to begin with.

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Originally Posted by Tlachtga

its fine in pvp because engagements there are generally short and sweet. i feel like pvp kits in longer fights like savage and ultimates would really highlight their lack of depth and become really boring.

there's are elements in some of the pvp kits i wouldn't mind seeing in pve, but i feel like just straight up transferring the kits over 1:1 wouldn't work. maybe i'm wrong.

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There's also the thing where the PvP kits are also based around static values that aren't effected by gear, level, etc which is also a reason why they work in PvP.

I'm a simpleton, but I'd prefer to see the way PvP jobs are made be intergrated in PvE job design so we stop seeing jobs simplified to the point of where they're practically the same damn job. Healers suffer from this piss poor design choice the most and I'd love to play healer jobs more if it had some of the things that makes their PvP counterpart so much fun.

Depends on the job.

RDM? Interesting.
MCH? YES PLEASE.
Healers? See above.
Tanks? Fix Junction and I'll be happy

While I do think the PvP kits have more personality than the PvE ones currently, not all the PvE kits need to switch over.

If they bring anything over from PvP job design I hope it's the lesson that making every job wildly different with unique wacky abilities is very fun. You'll always have whiners saying X job is useless because it doesn't have Y aspect from another job, but just ignore those people.

The wrong lesson would be to simply say "oh people like having way less buttons let's just delete more of their buttons."

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Originally Posted by SargeTheSeagull

Everyone seems to enjoy most jobs in PvP more than their PvE iterations. So, hypothetically how would you react if they announced that in Dawntrail every job would now work as it does in PvP (with a few tweaks and additions). Is this ideal or nightmare fuel?

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No thanks, PvP jobs, while at least somewhat engaging, have been dumbed down infinitely from ShB.

Imagine having only 6 buttons in PvE ?

We had perfect PvE jobs already in this game, it's called Stormblood, they can simply go back to that.

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Originally Posted by Tlachtga

but i feel like just straight up transferring the kits over 1:1 wouldn't work

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Actually it'll make raiding require much more thought. For example, on Dragoon you have to weave Elusive and use Wyrmwind Thrust from range, and you need to get back fast or use High Jump, that alone will make Dragoon require far more encounter awareness than any PvE job right now, not to mention Geirskogul giving you +25% vulnerability, if you use that at the wrong time you'll be dead. Sadly, no, that's not good enough, especially on healers, I'm sorry to say, White Mage is still Glare Glare Glare, while on other jobs like Black Mage it's just a downgrade, since the hard part of PvP Black Mage is using Ice to CC, but in PvE you literally always go Fire for the DoT damage, plus bosses don't fall asleep, that means half your kit is irrelevant and it becomes a 4 button job.

I like playing blm in pvp but would hate blm pvp for pve content. Absolute snoozefest.

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Originally Posted by FenyxRising

No thanks, PvP jobs, while at least somewhat engaging, have been dumbed down infinitely from ShB.

Imagine having only 6 buttons in PvE ?

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I didn't think people needed to have this spelled out but PSA for basically anyone who thinks this is what we mean with "how about we use PvP jobs as a template for PvE jobs"...

The key suggestion here is using the core mechanics of a PvP job, but not condensed in 6-7 buttons like in PvP but instead EXPANDED to full kits like in PvE. Examples (from various eras of PvP):

HP-Spender + Lifestealer DRK

• Using HP as a resource for offensive / defensive purposes (Dark Arts for example), with limitations on how much you can spend (cooldown, mostly)
• Implement recovery tools, most likely a frequently available lifesteal that will cover your own expenses of effective HP spending per minute + providing probably 10-25% more HP recovery beyond that as leeway / defensive bonus
• "Minus Strike" effect on specific actions hitting harder the lower your HP is (so damage version of Essential Dignity essentially)
• Adjustment on defensives or max HP to make playing this way safer / more viable.
• Maybe make Darkside duration a resource (we are overcapping it by 12min or so every 10min.

Shift RDM

• Using White/Black Shift for a variety of different effects (however, not that either provides 0 DPS and the other provides all)
• Maybe make engaging into a Shift tied to having overcapped Mana of a type
• Implement mono-Mana spenders that can be used if you overcapped a type of mana, increasing the mana gain of the other
• Engagement providing a self-shield because they badly need one

Junction GNB

• Junction: Tank, DPS, Healer available with Draw & Junction, effects activated by using "Continuation" or "Fated Circle" (recommended, other actions can be chosen to be added)
• Junction: Tank provides HP shield effects similar to Brutal Shell (with more potency) or % mitigation (like hold Inner Beast)
• Junction: Healer provides... Healing, can be Regen or direct heal, maybe as a small AOE healing pulse?
• Junction: DPS provides essentially "Greased Lightning" providing 5% haste, up to 3 stacks, for 30s. This is so maintaining 3 stacks is desired, but sitting in Junction: DPS the entire time is not.
• Draw & Junction would be functionally identical to BLU's "Aetherial Mimicry".

Assorted other additions:
White Mage - Seraph Strike, additional offensive capabilities
Scholar - Biolysis spread, once again
Black Mage - maybe a Swiftcast/HP Shield tied to Aetherial Manipulation? Might be slightly overkill if not actually bad though.
Summoner - Fester once again providing additional potency, either by itself under a specific condition or enhancing the potency of another action when used (Ruin spells? Gemshine combos?)

These are some spitball ideas based on how the PvP jobs function, which can be implemented as PvE variants to enhance or rework current job kits.

most controvertial job change. > no new jobs

instead add branching paths and specializations? couild open up for some varying and interesting gameplay.

example > pld > specializations } healer based, dps based ,defensive
these changes could change the weapons pld uses froma shield to a hammer or a magic sword. it could come with its own specialized skills and new 1s to pick from. this game has the infrastructure (did i spell that right?) to make this a thing. new jobs could instead just be new specilizations

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

most controvertial job change. > no new jobs

instead add branching paths and specializations? couild open up for some varying and interesting gameplay.

example > pld > specializations } healer based, dps based ,defensive
these changes could change the weapons pld uses froma shield to a hammer or a magic sword. it could come with its own specialized skills and new 1s to pick from. this game has the infrastructure (did i spell that right?) to make this a thing. new jobs could instead just be new specilizations

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If the specs don't change role, players will gravitate towards the option of most dps because choice is an illusion in this game.

If the specs change the role, it will be akin to designing new jobs sharing weapons, which is both a good and a bad thing. But otherwise it's debatable how good of an addition it would be.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

I didn't think people needed to have this spelled out but PSA for basically anyone who thinks this is what we mean with "how about we use PvP jobs as a template for PvE jobs".

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Your ideas don't work. Let me just explain GNB. What will happen is that you'll just sit in Junction DPS the entire time despite what you say, because the Greased Lightning is 30s yet Draw and Junction is 20s CD.

If they want to make PvE jobs better they need to revamp their entire PvE philosophy, otherwise you never have any reason to Junction anything other than DPS, it really is that simple. In ARR/HW, positioning and crowd control mattered sometimes, now it's just nada. So none of the PvP ideas will work.

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

most controvertial job change. > no new jobs

instead add branching paths and specializations? couild open up for some varying and interesting gameplay.

example > pld > specializations } healer based, dps based ,defensive
these changes could change the weapons pld uses froma shield to a hammer or a magic sword. it could come with its own specialized skills and new 1s to pick from. this game has the infrastructure (did i spell that right?) to make this a thing. new jobs could instead just be new specilizations

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Specs are just noob traps, it's impossible to make all of them equally viable and then it becomes a game of "we have a defensive build paladin instead of a dps build paladin, gg, kick him please" in dungeons and raids.
Things like specs, builds, cross class skills like we used to have, those were straight up just noob traps. You either know the correct and meta choice, or you were a noob, pick the wrong choice, and get bitched out by your party for being a hindrance to them.

I love how people are blindly bashing the PvP skillsets for not having 30+ buttons and not having at least 90% of their buttons be damage spells with just a different animation. I'd love to have a "modern" style layout that consolidates buttons at least like they did with Dragoons High Jump-->Mirage Dive (and it doesn't have to be the same button - have 1 separate button be the one transforming like GNB continuation)


Of course copying the current pvp skillsets 1:1 towards PvE wouldn't work we all know that but they could act as a foundation to build more engaging and intricate jobs - like almost all of the pvp skills interact with each other and provide meaning throughout all of the match (looking at you undraw)

But I guess most ppl think getting another button for another ogcd 300 potency skill/heal is super engaging

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Originally Posted by FenyxRising

Your ideas don't work. Let me just explain GNB. What will happen is that you'll just sit in Junction DPS the entire time despite what you say, because the Greased Lightning is 30s yet Draw and Junction is 20s CD.

If they want to make PvE jobs better they need to revamp their entire PvE philosophy, otherwise you never have any reason to Junction anything other than DPS, it really is that simple. In ARR/HW, positioning and crowd control mattered sometimes, now it's just nada. So none of the PvP ideas will work.

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You are ONCE AGAIN showing you are shortsighted because you cannot comprehend that they wouldn't implement abilities as carbon copies from one mode to another just like they havent carbon copied PVE abilities to PVP. Do I need to spell out EVERYTHING to you?

Draw & Junction would be a cooldown as short as 2-5s similar to Stances and Kardia. For BLU it's even a GCD.

It would 100% work with a short CD as an oGCD.