The Novice Network

Such a title itself is terrifying.

But jokes aside, the mentor system needs to be adjusted as well as the reasonings for kicking people. There needs to be a ToS drop-down menu for it.

I'm honestly getting quite sick and tired of people giving their interpretations of the ToS or prohibited activities to justify kicking people, can you just give them actual selection menus?

Also for the love of god raise the requirements for mentors to become mentors or add a series of checks to ensure they know what they are doing, it's just a global trade chat for FFXIV.

Why has SE let this particular chat/system go entirely untouched without even so much as a word on what they plan to do with it?

The game would absolutely be better without the Novice Network or Mentor System. Many other MMOs have alternative ways for players to communicate such as zone-wide chat channels that aren't say/yell/shout. Likewise, there's a myriad of guide content to refer new players to, such as WoWHead for World of Warcraft, that are a perfect replacement for having mentors provide answers. In a lot of cases, I've seen mentors give bad answers that are correct by returners and sometimes even sprouts themselves. I'm sure the system actually works better/as intended on Japanese servers but it doesn't work on European or North American servers (although people hoarding housing or engaging with RMT services isn't as much of a problem on JPE servers either so Square Enix will be pretty reluctant in changing anything for us).

Regardless of the requirements, people would grind them at least for the status symbol they perceive the BK crown has, and not because they wish to be helpful or because it supposedly proves they know what they're doing.
Thing is, no matter what, I doubt anything would change for one simple reason: In NA and EU, the whole concept of being a competent, nurturing guiding individual, to those still learning the ropes is not as common as it is for the concept of Kohai/Senpai.
SE can try some things I imagine, but I don't know how much they could do while the cultura difference just renders the entire mentor system an absolute joke in the West.

I still believe that gutting the novice network and removing it is the only way. People become awful human beings when they're in groups together, enabling each other.

Instead what I'd like is a request a mentor feature. If you have mentor status on and you're not currently in a duty then sprouts can request help/advice from you through a chat function. They're making some sort of strategy board for in game uses in the future right? Well they could probably implement something like that for use during mentor-sprout chat to help explanations too.

I personally never got into the Novice Network. Gotten my Astrope (been a mentor a long time), I've never really gotten any advice nor given advice/information on the NN that is not available on Google. Save yourself the annoyance from the occasional snark and circle jerk and just use Google.

As for the mentor system, the amount of sprouts I've taught and assisted in ARR extremes and Rathalos EX, they're not something taken for granted. If there's no mentor system, those sprouts will match with each other on duty finder and frankly will not clear.

I think the fifteen hundred commendations is already a good indicator that the player has played quite the amount of duties in the game and an indicator of experience with normal content. Mentors cannot be expected to know all high end duties nor expected to help all the time. We're just like every other player enjoying our time at our own paces, and sometimes would help when available.

I saw a mentor kick someone for speaking another language. The very first thing it says in the network is "All languages welcome."

That's the guy's first impression of the game, coming into a chat that's meant to be welcoming and helpful and he literally just gets player moderated without any repercussions to the mentor.

They do raise the requirements for getting the status. What does know what they're doing supposed to mean? People should be able to make mistakes. They also might have outdated information as the mentor might not interact with something as often as others. I'm also a bit confused about your last statement. You can add all the requirements you want there are people who will go out of their way to jump through any hoops just so they can wear the crown. A crafting or PVP mentor might not be as knowledgeable as a PVE mentor. One person who might know how to say do a samurai's opener might not know the one for reaper. Same thing with a person who might know a semi failsafe 3 star crafting rotation might not remember the mechanics for Dun Scaith. Do I wish it could be better in NA/EU? Yes. Yet every server has their own NN community that may or may not be useful or friendly.

I remember being really happy when I earned my Mentor role, because I genuinely love helping people. But walking into the Novice Network was like:

https://external-content.duckduckgo....1cb&ipo=images

It was just a nasty, mean, toxic place, full of Mentors abusing their power. I tried for a few days on the off-chance that it was a fluke, but it wasn't. I left and haven't been back since. Turned off my crown too, because I don't want to be associated with that kind of toxicity.

The main issue with the current Mentor system is that it only vets Mentors to ensure they've done enough content, but there's nothing that vets their ability to be compassionate, decent people, nor is there any accountability. And until that gets changed, Novice Network will remain what it is; that's what happens when you arbitrarily give players power over other players.

The Novice Network was something that sounded amazing on paper but the single flaw is anything run by the people is bound to crash and burn. There needs to be an actual moderator for it.

Each server has a widely different experience with NN just because people are left unchecked.

When I was in Faerie...the NN was actual a decent example of what it could be. Yeah it was used as a global chat for 90% of it but anytime a sprout had a question or even if they simply said "hey I need help with x content" people jumped at the chance to help.

However OTHER NNs have had mentors who straight up power trip and treat it like their own personal chat. If you don't follow the rules THEY lay out or they simply don't like you...you'll be kicked. At least all kicks aren't permanent so you can always come back. Unfortunately so can they.

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Originally Posted by Midare

Regardless of the requirements, people would grind them at least for the status symbol they perceive the BK crown has, and not because they wish to be helpful or because it supposedly proves they know what they're doing. I like to help and used to run training runs in swtor and in this game for fc/guild members.

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I personally hide my mentor crown (crafting and battle) and I know a few people who do the same thing. The crown looks silly. Unfortunately it shows up in roulette which is ok as people have to know I am there to help if needed though the primary role of mentor roulette seems to be filling groups. I wish the mentor symbol was less ostentatious than the golden crown.

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Originally Posted by Darkobra

I saw a mentor kick someone for speaking another language. The very first thing it says in the network is "All languages welcome."

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Happened to me. I even got kicked as a mentor for answering to someone in Spanish (the question was in Spanish and I am more comfortable in that language too) after someone said English please.

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Originally Posted by tsuchii

I think the fifteen hundred commendations is already a good indicator that the player has played quite the amount of duties in the game and an indicator of experience with normal content. Mentors cannot be expected to know all high end duties nor expected to help all the time. We're just like every other player enjoying our time at our own paces, and sometimes would help when available.

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I agree. While I like extremes, as someone who has joined the game a little late, there are a few lvl 70 extremes for which I was never able to get a synched group. Not for failing to try, PF just wouldn't fill and I don't have all day. I still think that I have a decent understanding of them having watched vids and soloing as tank a while ago (I have to know how Suzaku/Shinryu work to survive as tank on those 2) but it's not quite the same. Chances are those will never pop in the roulette but it's not impossible.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

I remember being really happy when I earned my Mentor role, because I genuinely love helping people. But walking into the Novice Network was like:

https://external-content.duckduckgo....1cb&ipo=images

It was just a nasty, mean, toxic place, full of Mentors abusing their power. I tried for a few days on the off-chance that it was a fluke, but it wasn't. I left and haven't been back since. Turned off my crown too, because I don't want to be associated with that kind of toxicity.

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I no longer join Novice Network. It's toxic, often filled with misogynistic comments too. I prefer to help outside of NN.

Back when I first did the free trial for this game (not long after ARR released) I couldn't find help and was so confused I left the game 2 days in. I didn't return until early 2019 when I had had enough of WoW and remembered I had the old trial and gave this game a new try. Again no mentor, no invite to NN no help for weeks. A friend joined and got into NN immediately (he is now a mentor himself though on a different DC). It is sort of a crap shoot weather a new player even connects with a mentor. I did eventually get into NN but quickly realized at that time NN was Barrens chat on steroids and left it again. I have found more help just walking up to someone with a crown and asking a question. Outside of that most of what I learned of the game was google foo.

EDIT: TO be fair coming from WoW googling for answers and looking up guides was already pretty much ingrained.

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Originally Posted by Myrany

I have found more help just walking up to someone with a crown and asking a question. Outside of that most of what I learned of the game was google foo.

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People should just ask in gen chat IMHO. Everytime someone did that, they got answers. NN is limited and superfluous.

Edit: agree with the google comments. So many answers there right at the tip of your fingers.

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Originally Posted by Darkobra

I saw a mentor kick someone for speaking another language. The very first thing it says in the network is "All languages welcome."

That's the guy's first impression of the game, coming into a chat that's meant to be welcoming and helpful and he literally just gets player moderated without any repercussions to the mentor.

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I am not justifying this behavior but this is notorious over in JP as well. Which is a large fear of them adding cross region travel. Instead of enforcing the rules, SE is to scared of backlash to do something about it.

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Originally Posted by Darkobra

I saw a mentor kick someone for speaking another language. The very first thing it says in the network is "All languages welcome."

That's the guy's first impression of the game, coming into a chat that's meant to be welcoming and helpful and he literally just gets player moderated without any repercussions to the mentor.

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Note to self, start using google translator to gaelic on balmung.

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Originally Posted by JiraTyanu

Note to self, start using google translator to gaelic on balmung.

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That would be original. As someone who speaks several languages (English is my 5th) I would love to see that but I am not on Balmung. Most often than not, when it was a language other than English, I used to see posts in Spanish, French and Portuguese in the NA NN and more often that not they were met with "English pls". I wish people who don't understand the language would ask politely if they are able to post in English for their own understanding as am second option so they could help (or just use google translate for an approximate result) and not for the sake of booting the poster and the mentor (or whoever) answers in the same language.

Okay, so for those who have issues with what's being said in NN. Do you report them?

No? Why not?

Yes? Don't you trust the moderators to do the job?


On the other hand, I had folks show up in hyperion, because they were told, it was the best NN to actually get an answer. They CROSS SERVER TRAVELED, to ask a question, and got it answered.

I have never interacted with the Novice Network, but I am bewildered at why it was ever deemed necessary in the first place and I've heard mostly bad things about it. Newbies can just ask for advice in map chat, or google it, or ask on the subreddit. Giving a power structure to random players who can control a chat channel and kick whomever they like doesn't seem like a good idea.

This seems like the kind of naivety that originally brought us "no Vote to Kick function in dungeons" and "skippable cutscenes in MSQ roulette." They seem to just assume people will be polite, civil, and nice.

Every time I see a Burger King crown in a roulette raid/dungeon, I just wonder what the heck they are even doing here. They aren't "mentoring" anyone. They aren't helping or explaining things to any newbies. They're just doing the same thing as anybody else. How are they mentors?

Eh, maybe it's just Gilga's NN but it really isn't too bad most of the time. If someone asks a question, usually you have a few people answering it. If someone asks for help doing something we usually have no problem filling a group to help or a couple people hopping in to help them out. Sure it is a server wide general chat most of the time, but usually it's pretty accessible for sprouts and returners to get what they want and need out of it.

Obviously it's not always that way as anytime you get hundreds of people in a glorified chatroom stuff will happen, but most of the time it fizzles out pretty quickly or if it devolves into fighting then people will be kicked to keep it out of NN.

I do wish we had a global chat channel in game, though, if nothing else do it like wow where the cities have access to a shared global chat with the ability to easily leave the chat if you don't want to see it.

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Originally Posted by JiraTyanu

Note to self, start using google translator to gaelic on balmung.

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It's a shame that language is dying. Only 60,000 people in Scotland still speak it.

I haven't seen any problems with it on my server. I hardly ever see anyone being kicked out unless they're a bot or player is not stop spamming same thing over and over. Seems for the most part all the ones I see on it are pretty nice and helpful.

This game need a global chat(s).. NN is a prof of that-
Global chat will have max 500 players in each
and you have like GC1,GC2..ect - so that all can join..

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

This game need a global chat(s).. NN is a prof of that-
Global chat will have max 500 players in each
and you have like GC1,GC2..ect - so that all can join..

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This.
Players need simple global channels, like WoW or EvE got, not some over complicated Link-Shell garbage.

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Originally Posted by Toutatis

That would be original. As someone who speaks several languages (English is my 5th) I would love to see that but I am not on Balmung. Most often than not, when it was a language other than English, I used to see posts in Spanish, French and Portuguese in the NA NN and more often that not they were met with "English pls". I wish people who don't understand the language would ask politely if they are able to post in English for their own understanding as am second option so they could help (or just use google translate for an approximate result) and not for the sake of booting the poster and the mentor (or whoever) answers in the same language.

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You can DC travel to Balmung and join the NN there to see. You can even kick people from other servers NN's.

Literally all you would need to do to fix NN is add a rule in the TOS to not kick people from it without proper reason

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Originally Posted by SylvAlternate

Literally all you would need to do to fix NN is add a rule in the TOS to not kick people from it without proper reason

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And whos gonna check for that? The GMs that already ignore 95% of reports? People openly cheat, mod, harass and stalk others without anything being done. You think they care about NN kicks when people can simply be reinvited?

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Originally Posted by SylvAlternate

Literally all you would need to do to fix NN is add a rule in the TOS to not kick people from it without proper reason

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Yeah, I'm sure that hasn't been done already.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...9838/image.png

Didn't kick them by the way(before someone gets angy), just pulled it up to show off what happens when you go to kick someone from the NN.

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Originally Posted by Fyrebrand

I have never interacted with the Novice Network, but I am bewildered at why it was ever deemed necessary in the first place and I've heard mostly bad things about it. Newbies can just ask for advice in map chat, or google it, or ask on the subreddit. Giving a power structure to random players who can control a chat channel and kick whomever they like doesn't seem like a good idea.

This seems like the kind of naivety that originally brought us "no Vote to Kick function in dungeons" and "skippable cutscenes in MSQ roulette." They seem to just assume people will be polite, civil, and nice.

Every time I see a Burger King crown in a roulette raid/dungeon, I just wonder what the heck they are even doing here. They aren't "mentoring" anyone. They aren't helping or explaining things to any newbies. They're just doing the same thing as anybody else. How are they mentors?

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Was there someone asking for help or an explanation? Did you offer help or an explanation in those runs? If no then why should they speak up? And if you didn't then you're just the same. It doesn't take the crown to give suggestions or an explanation. Yet most runs no one talks outside at the start or the end. A lot of mentors don't show or have the crown turned on due to the stigma it has. A mentor screws up? Free game to mock em. A mentor gives advice in a nice way or an explanation for something? Either is greeted with silence with hints that what they said was ignored or missed or you get the memed "you don't pay my sub" at minimum or the equivalent of a 12yr old playing CoD. Then there are the occasions where a mentor does either of those things only to have a fellow "mentor" troll the one trying to help out. Or the other mentor tells the helpful one to stfu.

The novice network is supposed to be a spot in game where you can get quick, helpful answers to questions or help for a quick que in game. Hopefully without any harassment, power trips, spoilers galore, or vulgar language being used. I'm not meaning swears when I say vulgar language. As I said earlier in this thread some are actually nice and helpful. Others are a dumpster fire floating down a flooded street.

You know things are bad when I complimented a tank in a Prae run this morning on a very smart move he made and he initially thought I was being sarcastic. Who is beating down the new players so much that this is now the norm?

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Originally Posted by Fyrebrand

Every time I see a Burger King crown in a roulette raid/dungeon, I just wonder what the heck they are even doing here. They aren't "mentoring" anyone. They aren't helping or explaining things to any newbies. They're just doing the same thing as anybody else. How are they mentors?

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The mentor roulette is primarily a filling roulette, only occasionally you get an extreme trial or duty where people may require an explanation or a sprout who doesn’t know what a stack marker is. You don’t get to chose where you might end up: it can be any dungeon, guildhest, trial (extreme or regular), normal raid or AR. Just one single roulette for all that.

You get sent whereever someone abandoned a duty (if in progress is checked) or where someone has been waiting to fill a group and you just happen to be the next person who queued. It doesn’t check whether the initial person who queued for a duty is a sprout or if it’s a first time duty, maybe you’ll even end up with other mentors.

Yesterday I queued twice as dps and got thrown in the middle of an already ongoing uneventful regular Barbariccia trial (maybe someone left and they decided to start the fight with 7) and into the very first lvl 10 guildhest. Before yesterday it made me tank lvl 15 Sastasha…what am I suppose to say beside o/ in that? “Follow me and stick them with the pointy end”?

You cannot hide your crown when using mentor roulette.

I got invited into the Novice Network when I was new to the game. I think I lasted a total of three days before leaving and never looking back. My experiences were that it was used as German general chat half the time (I wouldn't care, I understand German fine, but I find it kinda disrespectful towards the people who don't), the other half it was endgame players arguing with each other over endgame balance and getting mad when an actual novice asked a question about the game.

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Originally Posted by Myrany

You know things are bad when I complimented a tank in a Prae run this morning on a very smart move he made and he initially thought I was being sarcastic. Who is beating down the new players so much that this is now the norm?

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I think this may be old wounds from other MMOs. I've been around for over a year and I STILL reflexively read and "good job" as sarcasm.

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Originally Posted by Toutatis

The mentor roulette is primarily a filling roulette, only occasionally you get an extreme trial or duty where people may require an explanation or a sprout who doesn’t know what a stack marker is. You don’t get to chose where you might end up: it can be any dungeon, guildhest, trial (extreme or regular), normal raid or AR. Just one single roulette for all that.

You get sent whereever someone abandoned a duty (if in progress is checked) or where someone has been waiting to fill a group and you just happen to be the next person who queued. It doesn’t check whether the initial person who queued for a duty is a sprout or if it’s a first time duty, maybe you’ll even end up with other mentors.

Yesterday I queued twice as dps and got thrown in the middle of an already ongoing uneventful regular Barbariccia trial (maybe someone left and they decided to start the fight with 7) and into the very first lvl 10 guildhest. Before yesterday it made me tank lvl 15 Sastasha…what am I suppose to say beside o/ in that? “Follow me and stick them with the pointy end”?

You cannot hide your crown when using mentor roulette.

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XD

This reminds me when I had an eager sprout asking for Innocence normal mechanics and I just said whack it til it's dead. LOL
There's really no gimmick mechanics, just avoid AOEs on that trial. LOL

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Originally Posted by Toutatis

I agree. While I like extremes, as someone who has joined the game a little late, there are a few lvl 70 extremes for which I was never able to get a synched group. Not for failing to try, PF just wouldn't fill and I don't have all day. I still think that I have a decent understanding of them having watched vids and soloing as tank a while ago (I have to know how Suzaku/Shinryu work to survive as tank on those 2) but it's not quite the same. Chances are those will never pop in the roulette but it's not impossible.

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The only level 70 extreme I ever saw out of 2000 roulettes is Rathalos. I got it DAILY. LOL - not an exaggeration.
The rest are ARR and the occasional Thordan and Bismark. I never saw the other 60 extremes queued. I've only cleared Thordan once. It is nearly unteachable and most mentors who get trapped in it doesn't know the mechanics either.

I think the NN on each server might be different. Leviathan's is pretty good. It serves its purpose on multiple levels. New/returning players ask their questions and get their answers. Mentors and new players chat with each other, creating some camaraderie among the playerbase that can last after the player has moved out of the NN.

It might just be what the community makes of it. If it doesn't work for you or your server... don't join it.

Gilgamesh's Novice Network is plenty helpful! Sure things descend into horny jokes and silliness every now and then, but the mentors there are generally understanding and eager to help when asked and available. Of course there are bad faith mentors, sprouts, and returners, but we self-police pretty well.

As someone who's never had the need to interact with other Novice Networks, I honestly can't relate to any of the negativity being said here.