How would you rework healer LB1 and 2?

Or would you at all? Other problems with healers aside, I think healer LB1 and 2 are practically useless. I dont think i've used either of them... ever. A huge AoE heal with no side effects is about as useless as it gets in 14 now. So how would you change heal LBs? Personally, I'd make LB1 a 6 yalm AoE raise that gives everyone touch of death and puts them at 20% HP. LB2 I'd make a 10 yalm AoE raise that gives everyone weakness for 2 minutes. This probably would only be reasonable if you took raises away form summoner and red mage (that's a rabbit hole all its own) because keeping things interesting/difficult with that many raises in the game would be pretty hard. Thoughts? Ideas?

Increase damage intake, heavily enough that GCD healing and MP can seem like actual non-trap/waste buttons/mechanics, then...
LB1: Uptime cost / animation lock greatly reduced. Effect doubled.
LB2: Effects of LB1 + additionally generates reduces damage taken by 15% and grants a HoT that that heals for a total of 50% of HP. Uptime cost / animation lock significantly reduced.
LB3: Atop its current effect, cleanses Weakness and degrades Brink of Death to Weakness, but players already afflicted by Weakness still resurrect with Weakness (rather than it worsening to Brink of Death), etc.

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Originally Posted by SargeTheSeagull

Personally, I'd make LB1 a 6 yalm AoE raise that gives everyone touch of death and puts them at 20% HP. LB2 I'd make a 10 yalm AoE raise that gives everyone weakness for 2 minutes.

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Personally, I don't think it's worth it to give the skill a unique Weakness duration nor to double the penalty; that would just weirdly allow your LB... to grief you.

I also wouldn't give it a limited AoE range, as that just wonkily encourages corpse-piling. Just have the the LBs grant each downed party member the option to be Raised, with LB1 consumed by the first taker and LB2 by the first 2, without removing what other options they may already hold and being overriden by whatever other Raise options that may receive after.

(If doing that, though, you'd probably also want to have LB3 cleanse all Weakness / Brink of Death.)

LB1 = Restores 50% of max HP instead of 25% + inc MP Regen buff (10s)
LB2 = Restores 60% of max HP + Barrier/shield that reduce DMG by 20% for (10s)
LB3 = Restores 100% of max HP + Revives dead players + Barrier/Shield that reduce DMG by 60% for (5s)

I would make LB1 have 2 uses

Non-targeted: heal for 50% of current missing health to everyone on range, so effectively diminishing returns the more HP the group has when you use it; Usefull for a panic moment but not too overpowered

Targeted: Res the target to full HP with no weakness or brink (If they had it from a previous death, they can keep it as a treat) on the caster's location

For LB2 a similar thing

Non-targeted: Heal over time and light mitigation. Could be usefull on raidwides with bleed and such

Targeted: spends one of the LB bars to do the same as LB1 Targeted proposed above

I mostly picture this being a Dungeon used thing. Where a tank dies mid pull and a quick LB gets them back up to carry on, instead of waiting for them to accept a res that you swiftcasted while running from the enemies

IDK, it's hard to do anything with healer LB because of how 'all or nothing' the LB3 is. Nothing can remotely come close to the power level of 'you res everyone instantly'. So my trash suggestions would be:

I'd make LB1 heal it's current 20%, restore 2000mp to healers/casters (not other jobs, we don't need DRKs cheesing parses with LB padding) and additionally a 300p regen for 15s (for comparison, it'd be equal to 'Regen but on everyone', or 2x Medica 2)

I'd make LB2 heal it's current 50%, restore 5000mp to healer/caster, and additionally a 500p regen for 15 sec

And I'd reduce the animation locks on these LBs to be a lot shorter, such that 'saving the run' is more doable. Nothing like raising everyone in time for a mechanic, only to have their corpses aim said mechanic at you because neither you nor them are able to move. If they wanted to be extra interesting, they could have only WHM and AST have the regen, and SCH/SGE get a shield equivalent, but I feel like that steps onto the Tank LB's shoes a bit potentially

My idea for reworking:
Healer LB3 full team revive with proper health
Healer LB2 full team revive, but just regular revive (low health and badge so still reduced damage), alive people get full health.
Healer LB1 full team health

The LB2 while doing a team revive suffers from the part that any raid wide damage is generaly still going to cause a wipe since players lack health. Forcing the healers into making sure the healing can be done. This means there is still a significant chance upon people dying (and getting an even bigger nerf in damage). This number of badges is almost guaranteed to cause issues with enrage mechanics, and therefor shouldnt make it too overpowered there.

LB1 is for just regular dungeons, making that a full team revive might be nice there, but conflicts with raids as that would remove the balance there. And just like the tank LB, its generaly not a good sign if the LB is even needed for this to begin with. LB1 idealy is just dps only. And if that cant be done, so be it. For the healer (just like the tank), boosting survivability is as far as you can go here. Adding too much power here would break balance at many other parts (too much power here and it might make potential failing of mechanics a tactic, and that includes deliberate deaths).

LB1 to me is just a treshold for regular dungeons to at least have the button available and get people used to using lbs. While lb2 and 3 are the real important ones.

Am I on the wrong forum ?

How comes nobody suggested adding damage to healer's LB ?

LB1 raises up to 2 people at once random or nearest and fully heals anyone alive
LB2 raises up to 4 people and full heals party with a larger range also fills MP for those alive
Rework LB3 raises all and fully recover HP and MP alive and dead

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Originally Posted by Calysto

How comes nobody suggested adding damage to healer's LB ?

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Because while the game is excessively oriented about damage, it makes no sense to put damage on a healer when you have dps jobs. If healers would make equal or more damage than a dps, its just plain stupid as it makes no sense. If its less, its even more obsolete than the healer lb1 and 2 already are.

For Limit Break 1 it would restore 50% Health to the party and give the healer who used it full MP. I've had to use it enough times to know that it's only because I'm desperate to heal and out of MP at the time. I would want it to be a smart heal though, in that people at full health would be ignored in favor of giving more health to those lacking. So if the tank died and recently revived in a dungeon and the party has just started taking damage a healer LB1 would devote most of the healing potency to the tank bringing them to full and topping off everyone else. In a raid or trial if everyone is low it would just be 50% more health for everyone. This would make the increased health pool and reduced damage of tanks more valuable as the Healer Limit Break would funnel the healing they don't need to the party. If you need everyone topped off for a mechanic and only half the party need health then a LB1 is suddenly a legit option to save a scuffed run.

For Limit Break 2 I would have it restore 75% health to everyone and restore MP to full for all Healers in the party. That's close enough to full that you could definitely get most people through a heavy hitting mechanic with it. It would be a nice way for a solo healer to resolve a dropped to 1 hp mechanic but everyone needs health quickly.

I would also make it so that Healer Limit Break 1 and 2 can't be interrupted and the casts completes even if the healer would have died mid mechanic. An invulnerable state while in the casting animation would be some great tech to play around especially when stack markers almost exclusively target healers. I would only apply the invulnerable state to Limit Break 1 and 2 tho as using it early to cheese a mechanic would have the trade off of losing Limit Break 3 later on which is so powerful that an invulnerable state would break the game imo.

Healer Limit Breaks that actually have a sizable amount of smart healing (meaning healing that prioritizes low members first) would make me use the button a lot more especially if timing them well guaranteed my own survival too.

Giving MP to a healer not managing their existing resources is a mood, and the healer should be punished for not using their tools correctly imho. An LB shouldn't be wasted to fix that as it's not adding any real value. (We don't need healers wasting the LB to recover mana, could you imagine? xD) [I could totally see this being a thing with a bad healer where crowd control is an issue but a simple caster, ranged lb could clear it quicker]. Or even worse, on a boss where a melee lb would be preferable more...

If the healer is failing to heal or manage mp, even a full restoration won't probably mean a thing. Something else is going wrong if you're running out of mana that quickly. (Are you spamming heals(?))

As for making it more useful, here's something:
LB 1: Resurrects one target at random to full hp, removes and prevents any applicable death debuff that has or will apply on that target.
LB 2: Resurrects two targets at random to full hp, removes and prevents any applicable death debuff that has or will apply on those targets.
LB 3: Resurrects party to 100% and removes and prevents any applicable death debuffs that has or will apply on the incapacitated party.


(If you're using an extremely limited resource (the limit gauge), I'd argue that the death debuffs removal is okay and actually helps with adding some value back to the role, and in fact I could see a mechanic being tailor-made for this, where only the healers survive but bring back the party to full damage [Thus contributing to their value to the battle] (Think the Healer LB 3 equivalent to a Tank LB 3 in a fight that requires it)

In cases where some unique mechanic does not exist that makes use of that logic, it still has some conditional use if someone dies, although, still requiring someone to die lel. (Though I don't see that as bad, as the healer LB should remain conditional though given the context of it being a healer LB)

I do think LBs should contribute to some value no matter what LB you are at, I mean the tanks' LB and dps' LB do...so it makes since the healer one should also. Just like the tanks it should be conditional, where as a tank you might see them pop the LB early to save themselves in a pull if the dps aren't using it or in a fight to save the remainder of the party. It should be following something similar to that...conditional but when that condition comes about, another tool you should utilize.

I'd start by buffing melee, ranged and caster LBs.

They have not actually increased the relative strength of these actions since their implementation in ARR (HW for ranged), and every expansion they increase potencies for jobs normal actions. The result is our current situation, where it's actually often a DPS loss for a melee to execute their LB 1 or 2 and especially so for non melee DPS to single target theirs. Parses not going to players that use it is a player issue and not a balance one, so who cares about that. (Don't balance the game around arbitrary parsing rules)

Ranged should do as much as caster, for starters. It's strictly weaker for no reason even though there's basically only one fight where it's trajectory is superior when it's not already mandatory.

But, LBs were put into the game in a time when:
Direct Hit did not exist
The highest potency single attack was BLM's Flare at a real potency of around 476 (260 on paper)

Only healer lb3 has changed since (doesn't add to weakness/brink of death, and later the range increase), and only LB variance was reduced recently due to TOP.

Because they rarely design bosses with adds anymore (especially while the boss is also attackable), healer lb3 and tank lb are in a much stronger position relative to DPS than when we started.

As for healer lb1 and 2... Yeah they're about the same because 'nothing helpful most of the time' is still less than 'much weaker relatively'. Tank lb2 is still just as strong because it's always been proportional, and it even layers on top of all the party mitigation that exists today.

(old post)

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Originally Posted by VictorSpoils

At the very least, Healer LB1/2 should have a healing percentage buff (25/60 to 40/70) and restore MP by the same amount. LB3 should also restore MP to living party members (it's almost better to die and get revived). The regen/barrier ideas for LB1/2 are nice, potentially working differently with different healers. Allowing them to revive party members would help in giving them more use, and likely wouldn't incentivize raid mechanics as you're limited on uses and still have to deal with enrages, but it would still be hard to balance. They wouldn't be as powerful if they revived people with Brink of Death/Weakness, but that could lead to griefing in Alliance Raids.

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So, from most feasible to least:

• LB1/2 get a percentage buff (e.g. 25/60 to 40/70)
• LBs gain a regen/barrier
• LBs remove curable status ailments
• LBs restore MP to living party members
• LB1/2 raise and add a layer of Brink of Death/Weakness
• LB1/2 raise without adding a layer of Brink of Death/Weakness

LB system should be reworked

I'd honestly prefer we had a similar LB system to PVP where they're unique to the job and one person using limit break doesn't spend all the LBs, Only issue really is that a lot of old fights tack on Tank or Healer LBs to be used at a certain time, which honestly isn't all too great design wise.

If we're strictly talking about changing the LB and the rest of the game staying as is, probably make it instant cast and give MP back, since the only reason anyone would ever be hitting the button to begin with is if they're out of mana in a dungeon where it's really that useful for DPS anyway, and mitigation is already on the tank LB.

LB 70-80% heal
LB 2 just a aoe rez (will still apply weakness and revive at low HP)

IDK about putting mits on the healer LB since thats what the tank one is for. But I'd like an up front heal with a strong HoT or something to sustain through continuous damage.

I wouldn't mind experimenting with something else for the Limit Break system (especially the DPSers), as long as they'd find a way to keep a similar functionality (even if somewhere else that is not the LB itself) of the healer and tank LB3's, the only ones with an actual tactical usage.

Currently, the LB is 'fine', but kind of bland salvo for the stunning visuals.

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Originally Posted by SargeTheSeagull

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Thoughts? Ideas?

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Hm...offhand?

LB1: Heals party members for ~1/3rd of health and grants them a weakish barrier for ~5% of their max HP (or this can be potency based, whatever); stacks with other barriers. Also restores half the LB gauge on use. (One of the big reasons we don't use LB1 is in most content is because we want to save up for LB3s, so refunding some LB gauge could make this a more useful thing since you often get a full LB3 use and some change for an encounter, so this could still lead to an LB3 use.) ALSO, some way to allow the player to use to use LB1 even if the gauge is more full (same thing; maybe you have 2.5 gauges but you could use effectively half a gauge for some party healing and light mitigation at a key moment).

LB2: Heals party members for ~2/3rds of health and grants them a weakish barrier for ~10% of their max HP, and grants them a Regen of some good potency. (Not sure if a gauge refund on this one or not.)

Oh, and shorten the cast time/animation of both. It's silly long for how pitiful the current effects are.

One thing they won't do but could is put a Reraise on...something. I feel like LB3 should grant a Reraise for a short time (30 or 60 sec) and LB2 could then Raise but to a weakend state (LB3 Raises to full HP and MP, grants Reraise to anyone NOT dead at the time). I feel like there's some ability that works that way in...some game. Maybe...oh, Remnant 2's Medic ultimate, that's it. I think it works that way. Raises if a person is down, gives Reraise if they aren't. But that would be LB3 probably.

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Right now, 1 is a total waste of a LB gauge since you can easily heal that much with most of your powerful oGCDs or an oGCD plus a GCD. WHM can probably use Plenary Cure 3 or Temperance Medica 2 and get a stronger effect than LB1 (OR LB2, for that matter...). Power creep has made it to where our standard spells are probably as or more powerful (or at least comparable) to the healer LB1/2s at this point.

They need to do more than just heal, and especially LB2 should get people to full health and give some kind of insurance against following damage (so either barriers or HoTs or both). Again, otherwise you can outheal that with just standard healing spells at this point, making them kind of entirely pointless.

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EDIT:

Honestly, it makes me think of the "Nova" system in that Kingdom Hearts mobile game (Union Cross?). Early on, it was this powerful desperation/limit break type attack. But by the end of the game, it was an ABSOLUTE waste of a turn considering even your base attacks did more damage and there were Supernovas and Renovas (refresh your Supernovas for an additional use) and you could chains of these ridiculously powerful attacks and your basic, non-Supernova attacks were more powerful than the Nova attack, which would often do 0 or 1 damage due to enemy armor/defense scaling over the years-long run the game had.

That's how I feel about Healer LB1 and LB2 at this point.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

LB system should be reworked

I'd honestly prefer we had a similar LB system to PVP where they're unique to the job and one person using limit break doesn't spend all the LBs, Only issue really is that a lot of old fights tack on Tank or Healer LBs to be used at a certain time, which honestly isn't all too great design wise.

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They could just attach the PvP LB system into the job gauge for PvE as a personal LB1 and LB2. Compared to other jobs, our job gauge is as underdeveloped as it gets with no actual useful updates. The only "updates" to the gauge were long overdue QoL. We had to fight to get DPS neutral skills like Afflatus Misery and to a lesser extent, Toxikon, but even then those skills aren't really that much of a gamechanger. Afflatus Misery only made the gauge viable and Toxikon really doesn't give much of an advantage since it can't be generated normally. The whole development of the gauge could be summarized to nothing substantial other than some low cooldown healing skills that doesn't interact with your toolkit at all.