The blackest night changes in 7.0?

Since Dark knight no longer does anything better than the other tanks, why do we need to be the only ones that have to spend our damage resource on mitigation?
Better yet, why are we the only tank that has to suffer a damage penalty for someone else's overmitigation?

While I con understand your struggle, I would suggest that this post might be more relevent to the Tank Role Forum instead as opposed to General Chat.
I think that it is more helpful to keep conversation about job balance in their relevent sections.

I dunno. They could probably post in tank forums and somehow a bot will just shove it into GD anyway.

I don't think that is a significant issue. It's only an issue if you aren't very good at judging when and how to use it and against which enemies.

If you've ever done the content before as a Dark Knight, you will have a good idea of what breaks it although you can probably judge this just based on your memory of the incoming damage on other tanks, or by the item level sync. I rarely had an issue with this when maining Dark Knight in Shadowbringers.

If there is an issue to bring up at all, it is merging the damage reduction of Oblation into TBN to reduce bloat, and possibly self-healing (although I wish tanks could be unique, with Dark Knight being the shield tank instead of just being a mix like the others became in EW).

Classic War main gatekeeping other tanks with a demeaning attitude.
It's not hard to judge what you should or shouldn't be using it against.
But again, why is it in place when none of the others have a comparable mechanic?
When it happens, it's usually because others mitigated on top of me, which is out of my control anyways.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

But again, why is it in place when none of the others have a comparable mechanic?

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Why do people insist on erasing every last trace of uniqueness? Aren't tanks homogenized enough?

Enhanced TBN:
The next edge/flood cast after a break has a 400 cure potency.

tbh this tier has made me dislike Dark Missionary more than TBN, the raidwide mits each tank has is more unbalanced than their personal mits

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Originally Posted by Deo14

Why do people insist on erasing every last trace of uniqueness? Aren't tanks homogenized enough?

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Jank is not class identity.
And if you think it is, what sort of jank would you propose the other tanks should have to deal with that makes them not want to press their buttons?

I think that TBN being a risk-reward button made a lot more sense when it was a more unique thing amongst tanks. Now that other tanks have short mitigation buttons that have the same power level as TBN, I don't think that it makes as much sense to only have one of them have that risk-reward aspect. The other three tanks can simply dump their TBN-equivalent whenever they want with little to no issue, so why does DRK still have this chance of losing damage from mistiming their buff?

TBN also made more sense before the 6.4 balance changes. In SHB, DRK was reworked into what can be considered a damage spec of Warrior, at least in its gameplay design. It has more damage buttons than WAR but less utility/sustain buttons. In Asphodelos/Abyssos, it fulfilled this role as designed. However, due to Abyssos being poorly designed (mainly by having too much magic damage for DRKs to mit and by having damage checks too tight for certain jobs on release), the devs indirectly nerfed DRK by buffing WAR. This doesn't really make any sense as the damage spec of WAR now does less damage than WAR. (and no, a couple of DRKs at the high end getting good rng on random uncontrollable crit/DH procs doesn't mean that DRK does more damage than WAR) So this brings me to a final question. If DRK is going to be a worse version of WAR, why does it also have a risk of losing damage from improper uses of TBN when WAR has no such risk? It doesn't make sense for an objectively worse tank job to also have more risk in its kit.

Imo, TBN should have its MP cost removed, have the free edge of shadow removed, and perhaps made into a 25s cooldown if keeping at 15s would be unbalanced. Maybe they could even fuse it with Oblation or something idk

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Originally Posted by Oizen

This would actually be a signficiant nerf to DRK survivability as TBN's biggest benefit is its 15s cd,and also just make the skill really fucking boring.

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That's why I said to make it 25s if 15s would be unbalanced. If it's not unbalanced to keep it at 15, then there's no reason to change it. Also, a skill being worse than its counterparts doesn't make it more interesting, it makes it more annoying to use.

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

Imo, TBN should have its MP cost removed, have the free edge of shadow removed, and perhaps made into a 25s cooldown if keeping at 15s would be unbalanced. Maybe they could even fuse it with Oblation or something idk

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This would actually be a signficiant nerf to DRK survivability as TBN's biggest benefit is its 15s cd,and also just make the skill really fucking boring.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

Classic War main gatekeeping other tanks with a demeaning attitude.

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Ignoring that Dark Knight was my main for 2 years and I have mained Paladin before that. My alt is a Gunbreaker...

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But again, why is it in place when none of the others have a comparable mechanic?

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Uniqueness? It's posts like this that lead to classes being clones of eachother.

the question shouldn't be "why does TBN work the way it does?", it's "why is DRK such a shallow and terribly designed job that the only thing it had going for it up until 6.4 was damage?".

Enhancement ? like merging is with oblation (effect and fx), adding a charge and getting rid of the mp cost ? Sure why not :3

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

Jank is not class identity.
And if you think it is, what sort of jank would you propose the other tanks should have to deal with that makes them not want to press their buttons?

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I propose that we should stop giving X to Y job just because Z job has X too, this applies for both skills, mechanics or even jank in this case.

For real, why do you think TBN is such a problem? Yes, it's riskier than other tanks. So what? In normal content, if you lose potency it's because incoming damage is too low, but it's normal content, it doesn't even matter. In savage, if it doesn't pop, than that's purely your fault. Ask yourself, what audience would want this change?

I'm not saying that TBN isn't problematic, but it can be fixed, make refund based on incoming damage while ignoring mits or something like that, instead of just straight up removing all risks involved, which would make it yet another HoC/Bloodwhetting/Shelltron.

And since we're talking about tank jank, don't forget GNB exists. GNB already has jank in form of bloated continuation window, which makes using mits inside it pretty janky. Let's be real, Continuation is just set of bloated oGCDs, and there is no reason why this potency couldn't be in included in the Gnashing combo/Burst Strike. But guess what, it seems that GNB players do prefer this jank over just having Gnashing fang being boring 1-1-1. Just because something is janky, it doesn't mean that it outweights the positives.

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Originally Posted by VentVanitas

the question shouldn't be "why does TBN work the way it does?", it's "why is DRK such a shallow and terribly designed job that the only thing it had going for it up until 6.4 was damage?".

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>This

The entire Job needs changing
1. Lean into the "Magic tank aspect" of dark knight visually. RN its just angry edgy sword play with a pet that no one likes.
2. Let it have a unique rotation that isn't warrior with OCGD spam.
3. Improve on abilities like Dark Mind (which is just a cooldown thats really good for raid content but useless in casual content for some reason), TBN? Sure changes can be made i guess. Obviously its fine to keep its kit different from other tanks but stuff like "only reducing magic damage" is such a weird way to stand out.

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Originally Posted by Deo14

I propose that we should stop giving X to Y job just because Z job has X too, this applies for both skills, mechanics or even jank in this case.

For real, why do you think TBN is such a problem? Yes, it's riskier than other tanks. So what? In normal content, if you lose potency it's because incoming damage is too low, but it's normal content, it doesn't even matter. In savage, if it doesn't pop, than that's purely your fault. Ask yourself, what audience would want this change?

I'm not saying that TBN isn't problematic, but it can be fixed, make refund based on incoming damage while ignoring mits or something like that, instead of just straight up removing all risks involved, which would make it yet another HoC/Bloodwhetting/Shelltron.

And since we're talking about tank jank, don't forget GNB exists. GNB already has jank in form of bloated continuation window, which makes using mits inside it pretty janky. Let's be real, Continuation is just set of bloated oGCDs, and there is no reason why this potency couldn't be in included in the Gnashing combo/Burst Strike. But guess what, it seems that GNB players do prefer this jank over just having Gnashing fang being boring 1-1-1. Just because something is janky, it doesn't mean that it outweights the positives.

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Jank does not make the game inherently more enjoyable. Nor should jank define a job.
Put all of War's mits on GCD and watch the forums burn. But hey, it would certainly be unique.
TBN is not inherently more powerful than the other tank mits, why does it need the jank?

Jank that has upsides or is a tradeoff for a stronger ability is fine. Back in Shb the short CD mitigations of the other tanks were rather weak so to a degree it made sense for TBN to be this janky. But all the quick mits from the other tanks got buffed to ridiculous degrees. Now the jank has no more upsides, only downsides.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

Jank does not make the game inherently more enjoyable. Nor should jank define a job.
Put all of War's mits on GCD and watch the forums burn. But hey, it would certainly be unique.
TBN is not inherently more powerful than the other tank mits, why does it need the jank?

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Why are you thinking about TBN, HoC, Shelltron and Blodowhetting in an echo chamber? There is more stuff to each job.

DRK has janky TBN, but PLD has janky cover, gauge being filled only in melee and Requiescat+FoF shenanigans, GNB has janky continuation, WAR has (or used to have, not sure if it's still a thing) jank with Holmgang and the chain.

So do you want to apply double standards and make DRK regen mana only in melee range and similar?

Keep TBN as is. It refunds your MP spent 1:1 if used correctly for a significant shield as a gain.

I'd rather see 15s TBN with MP cost and refunding it than removing the mp cost and refund and/or the short cooldown.

If the worry is that nauseating notion of "it is a dps loss if used too much anyway", let us stack more Dark Arts or something. Or maybe the potential dps loss is not significant enough over actually making good use of the cooldown so DRK can mitigate attacks at different intervals and plan more independently from ither tanks with their 22-25s CD.

Or if we complain about sustain, page 1 has a good suggestion.

If you want to play warrior it's right there. If you don't, why try and make dark knight even closer to it? The 5.0 changes were bad enough without sanding away the last bit of skill expression dark knight has.

TBN without an mp cost or dark arts stack would just be thrill of battle.

Add a regen to it when it pops. Drk substantially needs more self healing. Odd because drk has, historically been a class in the ff series most associated with hp draining.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

TBN without an mp cost or dark arts stack would just be thrill of battle.

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Be careful, you will scare Warriors if you tell them theirs is 5% less.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

TBN without an mp cost or dark arts stack would just be thrill of battle.

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And yet, if we take the general comments in this thread, it would make battle less thrilling.

Glibness done. Question though about changes. One of the suggested problems was that party members throwing mitigation on you could throw off your timing. I'm not certain if it could be done (and double uncertain if it could be done without hurting Adlo and the like as collateral damage) but would making it so TBN's shield took flat unmitigated damage help or hurt? Assuming it had it's numbers modified to account for lacking any buffs or the like.

I think what would help Dark Knight is how the Dark Knight job operated in Final Fantasy IV and other Final Fantasy games where its skillset dramatically boosts its Strength, but sacrificing HP.

Its other rotation can then be used to heal itself and use its exclusive mitigation to keep itself alive while recovering the lost Hit Points. Basically make the Dark Knight have risky reward for High DPS in comparison to other tanks that have a constant safety cushion.

Also give it filler low level black magic spells as side-damage while the other skills cooldown.


While yes my idea would make DRK have the highest DPS for a Tank, but it comes at a very risky price if you're trying to do current content, this would also make DRKs a bit more dependent on healers.


I think right now Warrior can do the most damage?

"Blackest Night?"

No thanks, we don't need black lanterns in the game.

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Originally Posted by VentVanitas

the question shouldn't be "why does TBN work the way it does?", it's "why is DRK such a shallow and terribly designed job that the only thing it had going for it up until 6.4 was damage?".

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^ This

/10char

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

I don't think that is a significant issue. It's only an issue if you aren't very good at judging when and how to use it and against which enemies.

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This is not entirely accurate. In PF, you'll often not know how people will mitigate (or if they will at all), which can impact whether TBN breaks. A prime example of this was P2S where tanks could eat one of his cleaves without getting a damage down if they zeroed the damage. As a DRK, if the other tank tossed you their short CD (Nascent/HoC/Intervention) without telling you or the healers overmitigated, TBN wouldn't break. If you didn't use TBN, you couldn't zero the damage, thus were forced to disengage and lose 2-3 GCDs. You essentially had a guessing game whereas none of the other tanks had to care.

P7S is another fight where you actually have to strip off your entire gear and reequip everything at 1-2 seconds just to make TBN weak enough in the opener to break. If you don't, you pull with Edge and just accept a GCD loss. This is partially made up by the knock up stun cutting into your GCD. So it's manageable but still goes to show how poorly thought out this interaction can be in certain fights.

A far more common spot is the opener. It's not uncommon for the boss to auto someone else when pulled, which can result in the MT not taking enough damage before TBN falls off, costing you the aforementioned 460 potency in a pot window. That's not a small amount of damage loss.

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Originally Posted by Deo14

Why do people insist on erasing every last trace of uniqueness? Aren't tanks homogenized enough?

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There's nothing unique about this interaction. You're literally tossing out pointless TBNs so you'll maybe squeeze one extra Edge in one of the burst windows. It's such a minute gain you'll still orange without even doing it. On the flipside, if TBN doesn't break like in the scenarios I highlighted above, especially in the opener, you'll lose 460 potency. What makes it frustrating is you have zero control in these situations.

For a rough comparison, this would be the same as calling White Mage throwing out pointless Raptures just to get a Misery in burst windows "compelling gameplay." I get the whole "rawr, homogenization bad rawr!!!" but being "unique" for the sake of it isn't good design. I'm all for giving tanks (and jobs in general) more class identity, however let's not cling to jank design in a desperate attempt to have "uniqueness."

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Originally Posted by VentVanitas

the question shouldn't be "why does TBN work the way it does?", it's "why is DRK such a shallow and terribly designed job that the only thing it had going for it up until 6.4 was damage?".

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Now this, this is the question we need to be asking. Dark Knight's entire "identity" has been "big damage". The second the other tanks, specifically Warrior and Gunbreaker caught up, it immediately died. Kind of highlights why the whole of Dark Knight's design hasn't been great.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

if the other tank tossed you their short CD (Nascent/HoC/Intervention) without telling you

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I suppose I just never had this issue in Shadowbringers, but I think Nascent didn't apply a shield then either.

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or the healers overmitigated

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I didn't experience that either in Shadowbringers, but maybe healers didn't spam adlo on me because they like their DPS.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

For a rough comparison, this would be the same as calling White Mage throwing out pointless Raptures just to get a Misery in burst windows "compelling gameplay." I get the whole "rawr, homogenization bad rawr!!!" but being "unique" for the sake of it isn't good design. I'm all for giving tanks (and jobs in general) more class identity, however let's not cling to jank design in a desperate attempt to have "uniqueness."

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^ Big this. I'd agree a lot more often with the "muh homogenization" crowd if they didn't make arguments like the ones they make for TBN. A thing being unique for the sake of it doesn't necessarily mean that it's simultaneously designed well.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

I didn't experience that either in Shadowbringers, but maybe healers didn't spam adlo on me because they like their DPS.

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I coulda swore that they changed TBN in EW to be the shield that is used up first vs every other shield.

i liked dark back when you dropped grit to use bloodweapon in conjunction with bloodbath because it dropping stance increased your dmg, and bloodweapon gave you that temp increase in skill speed so recover your health as well as mp err well tp at the time and understanding how dark arts work made drk hella fun to play. Its ok now but its not what it use to be. My gripe is carve and split and abyssal drain sharing the same cool down. its annoying and it serves no purpose to share the timers. also miss power strike with it cool swing sound XD

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Originally Posted by Amenara

I coulda swore that they changed TBN in EW to be the shield that is used up first vs every other shield.

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I remember people saying that sometimes as well. I never really paid too much attention to it in the past either because it wasn't a problem for me. I'd notice if it wasn't absorbing the hits.

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Originally Posted by Amenara

I coulda swore that they changed TBN in EW to be the shield that is used up first vs every other shield.

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TBN is always the top most shield, but if you get enough raw mitigation then its just not going to break due to not taking enough damage.

Its pretty rare for it to happen and its more of an annoyance in normals than anything else.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

TBN is always the top most shield, but if you get enough raw mitigation then its just not going to break due to not taking enough damage.

Its pretty rare for it to happen and its more of an annoyance in normals than anything else.

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This happens daily to me now that I'm working on the tank achievement with daily roulette.

Any of the expert/90 boss dungeon tankbusters will straight up not eat the TBN if my WHM friend toss an Aquaveil on me while I already have Oblation and/or Rampart on top of it.

Not an issue but it's just annoying to see lol.