About the Blessing of Light and the Echo

Yo friends, I need help clarifying the difference between two, so if I have it right:

The Echo
- Let’s you see into someone/something’s past (can be controlled apparently)
- Resist primal/corrupting influence (or impose your own influence in the case of resonant)
- A Universal translator
- Some users have unique ability

The Blessing of Light
- Resist primal/corrupting influence
- An affinity toward light? (Although there’s a limit, we can absorb a good bit of light has shown in ShB)
- Be empowered by Haedelyn?

If I have the right of it there, then here’s my real question: With all the Ancients pretty much gone now will there be any new users of the Echo? I mean without Haedelyn I think the Blessing of Light is done after us. In the first Elitibus unlocked it for a lot of people in the crystarium, and as we learned in Elpis, it’s apparently something anyone can use. So is some scholar gonna unlock the secrets to learning it? Or is it still gonna be something unlocked at random? I’d love to know what you all think.

Well, from what I recall, Elidibus (in Shadowbringers) made reference to the Echo being 'gifted' to those who witnessed a Calamity that bore resemblance to their innate ancient memories of the Final Days.
However, that creates a problem in itself in my opinion, since it does make one wonder why the Echo apparently didn't awaken in anyone who saw (but didn't succumb to) the blasphemies, the epitome of the Final Days.

Still - we could possibly assume that it could be triggered naturally under the right circumstances.

You've basically entirely got it. I generally get a read that seeing into people's pasts is our unique Echo thing, though; Minfilia might've had it too, but Krile, Mikoto and Arenvald don't seem to do it.

It's always been pretty unclear as to why some people don't get the Echo, though; like, the Scions have been around for a lot of potential triggers, but haven't responded to any of them. My educated guess is that it only happens for souls that were once ancient souls, and some incalculable amount of people instead have souls that came into existence after that point and just wouldn't get them. If that's true, then a whole bunch of people that're gonna be born post-Endwalker will have the capacity for the Echo unlocked whenever they see something that invokes the memory of the Final Days.

As for why it didn't happen in somewhere like Thavnair, I dunno. Maybe it did, but things were too extreme at that point for anyone to bring it up? Or maybe it doesn't work if the events that invoke that are too real; like, your mind's too focused on not dying to connect to those latent soul-memories in a way that it's not if you just happen to see a starshower.

I think there's an addendum to note here: the pool of people who can awaken the Echo from seeing the Starshower/Final Days Redux need to have Ancient souls who lived through the first Final Days. Since the Echo is triggered by said traumatic memory from the World Unsundered, then anyone who was not present for that event (either died at the start of it or is part of the New Life, or who had already Returned to the Star and was in the Aetherial Sea at the moment) doesn't have the memories necessary for said trigger to work.

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Originally Posted by WhiteArchmage

I think there's an addendum to note here: the pool of people who can awaken the Echo from seeing the Starshower/Final Days Redux need to have Ancient souls who lived through the first Final Days. Since the Echo is triggered by said traumatic memory from the World Unsundered, then anyone who was not present for that event (either died at the start of it or is part of the New Life, or who had already Returned to the Star and was in the Aetherial Sea at the moment) doesn't have the memories necessary for said trigger to work.

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While I'd certainly class this as 'probably true by all of our understanding', I do want to point out that we don't actually have any proof of this. And I doubt we ever will, because explaining this would be a trip even with that being the subject of conversation; the Echo and Ancients have kinda gone cold as a subject in the game itself.

It would be interesting if there was some further elaboration on the Echo and why some souls seem to just straight up not have the gift at all, while others only felt pangs of nostalgia and sorrow at the starshowers.

We still don't actually know where souls come from, and I've always found the seeming distinction between "normal" souls and Ancient ones to be something that could be of more import going forward given how muddy of a subject the aetherial sea/Lifestream seems to be.

Souls come from the Aetherial Sea. They're a natural product of the world's processes, and just come into being eventually. Creation magic was unable to form them.

From Through his Eyes Side Story

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As water flows to the sea and rises to the sky before raining upon the land once more, the Underworld was a fundamental part of the circle of life. And for this reason, it was regarded at once with familiarity and reverence by men, who, despite their godlike powers, could not claim dominion over it. Wise though they were, they could catch only fleeting glimpses of the realm, channel but a sliver of its power, and do naught to control its ceaseless flow.

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This explains the natural cycle of souls, rising from the Aetherial Sea, and becoming new life and how the Ancients couldn't manipulate it.

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. Here and there, lives that had served their purpose drifted upon the current before suddenly plunging down unto the Underworld.

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Emet was staring up at the sky and could see souls in the aether currents around the area, that would then fall into the Aetherial Sea, which they called the Underworld.

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Through their mastery of creation magicks, men could weave anything into existence. Anything they could imagine, they could bring forth─anything, that is, except a soul. As Hades well knew, souls spontaneously manifested within creatures that were born in accordance with the laws of nature. It was a gift from the star itself, long held to be impossible to recreate. No artificial being, no matter how subtly sculpted in the image of nature, could come to possess a soul. Such creations occupied a separate classification known as arcane entities.

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This part re-enforces the previous bits.

In Tales from The Dawn, A Friendship Record we get this part :

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The Final Days brought fire and ruin until Zodiark put an end to the calamity.

His devotees then resolved to sow new life─a bounty of souls to take the place of their sacrificed brethren. In time would they reap this crop, and by rendering it unto their god would the lost be returned, and the world restored to the paradise it was and ever should have been.

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Zodiark as Emet put it during the Amourot dungeon could "weave the laws of nature anew," meaning it could manipulate the Aetherial Sea, and actually create souls en-masse from it. This is the "new life" that never knew the End of Days, from which most of intelligent life as we know it descends. The Sundering stopped the harvest of this life, and split all souls.

We can infer three things:
1. Those who were alive and Ancients at the time of the Sundering, became those whom have the potential for the echo.
2. Those who were created though Zodiark, are those who do not have the gift at all.
3. Those were Ancients before but were not corporeal during the Sundering, feel the nostalgia and sorrow, the loss of their civilization.

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Originally Posted by WellGramarye

Souls come from the Aetherial Sea. They're a natural product of the world's processes, and just come into being eventually. Creation magic was unable to form them.

From Through his Eyes Side Story



This explains the natural cycle of souls, rising from the Aetherial Sea, and becoming new life and how the Ancients couldn't manipulate it.



Emet was staring up at the sky and could see souls in the aether currents around the area, that would then fall into the Aetherial Sea, which they called the Underworld.



This part re-enforces the previous bits.

In Tales from The Dawn, A Friendship Record we get this part :



Zodiark as Emet put it during the Amourot dungeon could "weave the laws of nature anew," meaning it could manipulate the Aetherial Sea, and actually create souls en-masse from it. This is the "new life" that never knew the End of Days, from which most of intelligent life as we know it descends. The Sundering stopped the harvest of this life, and split all souls.

We can infer three things:
1. Those who were alive and Ancients at the time of the Sundering, became those whom have the potential for the echo.
2. Those who were created though Zodiark, are those who do not have the gift at all.
3. Those were Ancients before but were not corporeal during the Sundering, feel the nostalgia and sorrow, the loss of their civilization.

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This is pretty much how I classify the difference between souls and who might get the echo. We also now have, but will never see in game what effects it could have on a soul those who died during the 2nd Final days. Those that were in the Aetherial Sea prior to the 2nd Final Days kick off. And then any new souls made after these events.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

This is pretty much how I classify the difference between souls and who might get the echo. We also now have, but will never see in game what effects it could have on a soul those who died during the 2nd Final days. Those that were in the Aetherial Sea prior to the 2nd Final Days kick off. And then any new souls made after these events.

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As Yoshi-P joked, maybe in 40 years~

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

I generally get a read that seeing into people's pasts is our unique Echo thing, though; Minfilia might've had it too, but Krile, Mikoto and Arenvald don't seem to do it.

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It's probably just easy to forget that other people do it too because we do it so often; it's a great tool to get the player caught up on stories without having others explain it to us! But yeah, others do it, too. A core part of Ysayle's narrative is that she saw into Hraesvaelgr's past, and there are scenes where other Echo folks see into others' pasts: Fordola and two of the Crystarium Warriors of Light come to mind. Krile also pretends to do it in a side-story, and it's believable to those around her because it's a known thing that folks with the Echo do sometimes.

Arenvald actually does it, too. There's a scene he has where he mentions his Echo visions will put him on the floor while yours just make you space out a bit. And a few times Krile and Arenvald mention sharing our visions: "You saw that, too?"

Also, Ysayle, can't believe I forgot. She saw a vision and thought she was Shiva reincarnated, but the twist was that she saw Shiva's memory, yes, but from Hraesvelgr's aether.

when Minfillia went with us for the Leviachan quests, she also had the vision that we saw with the Sahagin High priest.

Or was it spelled Leviabeetus.... i can never quite get it right... maybe i should go ask that Roe who was with the company of heroes <_< >_>

I'm kind of hoping we run into an Echo bearer in the New World, because it would be interesting to see how other cultures have received such individuals when it was typically viewed as a curse amongst the less educated in Eorzea.

Having the ability serve as more then a convenient plot delivery device again would be nice.

Forgot to Mention But Krile also experiences a vision withs us when we see what happens in Garlemald at the end of SHB (with Estinien and Gaius and we fight that weird garlean fused Ultima as Estinien) she didnt see the stuff like we did but she Does get one.

Since WellGramarye mentioned Zodiark earlier in the thread it got me thinking that we actually could see new Echo Bearers pop up. If it’s true that only ancient souls can awaken it, then when we beat zodiark all the souls used for the summoning should have returned to the aetherial sea. So in time more people with the potential for the echo should be born, in theory at least.

It would stand to reason that there were probably regions on the other continents that experienced the burning skies and by extension, may have awakened the Echo in people in the process, so I hope that's not glossed over and Tural has experienced at least some manner of fallout from the Final Days.

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Originally Posted by Rannie

Forgot to Mention But Krile also experiences a vision withs us when we see what happens in Garlemald at the end of SHB (with Estinien and Gaius and we fight that weird garlean fused Ultima as Estinien) she didnt see the stuff like we did but she Does get one.

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She also gets Echo vision when we clash with the Warriors of Darkness after they put down Ravana. She mentions so afterwards, both in spoken and inbetween quest dialogue. Also every WoD does the facepalm thing that our WoL does after which Ardbert remarks on who we are.

So addendum for the echo. All of it's abilities are hyper empathy.

Universal translator is intent
Past/object reading is living another person's memories or the memories of a place
Aura reading is being able to understand people
Ability to possess people is just an extension of the rest taken to it's ultimate extent.

If framed as a form of hyper empathy then ALL abilities expressly displayed by the echo (barring resistance to tempering, though I would argue that comes from making it impossible for you not to consider another person's poverty which tempering does) it all makes sense and has a clear through line

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Originally Posted by shadowclasper

If framed as a form of hyper empathy then ALL abilities expressly displayed by the echo (barring resistance to tempering, though I would argue that comes from making it impossible for you not to consider another person's poverty which tempering does) it all makes sense and has a clear through line

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The echo's characteristics were already explained pretty handily. They line up with traits common to the ancients' abilities to perceive and interact/communicate with/through aether and the soul. Even psychometry makes sense here, as aetherial impressions are shown to linger long after the subject(s) -- mayhaps even their entire civilization -- turned to dust. The echo, as its name implies, is but a remnant of this set of characteristics.

The traveler's ward, or blessing of light, is what provides resistance to being tempered. More specifically, it protects from aetherial corruption of all sorts.

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Originally Posted by primarisgoazrr

Yo friends, I need help clarifying the difference between two, so if I have it right:

The Echo
- Let’s you see into someone/something’s past (can be controlled apparently)
- Resist primal/corrupting influence (or impose your own influence in the case of resonant)
- A Universal translator
- Some users have unique ability

The Blessing of Light
- Resist primal/corrupting influence
- An affinity toward light? (Although there’s a limit, we can absorb a good bit of light has shown in ShB)
- Be empowered by Haedelyn?

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I've been thinking about this thread as a I replay content and here are some observations:

• I don't believe we ever see anyone with the Blessing of Light who doesn't also have the Echo. So the Echo may be a prerequisite to have the Blessing of Light.

• It seems like having the Blessing of Light and being a Warrior of Light are the same thing?

• For our WoL as well as the Warriors of Light from The First, acquiring a Crystal of Light gifted to them by Hydaelyn after an act of heroism seemed to be a meaningful aspect of — if not the defining feature of — what makes someone a Warrior of Light. This theory seems reinforced by the fact that when Midgardsormr removes the Blessing of Light from our WoL, it is represented by the removal of the 6 Crystals of Light we had previously collected.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

I've been thinking about this thread as a I replay content and here are some observations:

• I don't believe we ever see anyone with the Blessing of Light who doesn't also have the Echo. So the Echo may be a prerequisite to have the Blessing of Light.

• It seems like having the Blessing of Light and being a Warrior of Light are the same thing?

• For our WoL as well as the Warriors of Light from The First, acquiring a Crystal of Light gifted to them by Hydaelyn after an act of heroism seemed to be a meaningful aspect of — if not the defining feature of — what makes someone a Warrior of Light. This theory seems reinforced by the fact that when Midgardsormr removes the Blessing of Light from our WoL, it is represented by the removal of the 6 Crystals of Light we had previously collected.

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This isn't quite true as our Minfillia, Krile, and Arenvald all have the blessing of light (two who state this being the case) all don't have their own crystal of light. Meanwhile Yasale as we know has a crystal of light. That is unless the single crystal she uses is just an ice crystal while transforming into Shiva while free falling and not a crystal of light tm. Then I'm not sure if Ramza et all or even Tenzen had their own crystals yet we know Ramza and Tenzen were the Warrior of Light of their time.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

This isn't quite true as our Minfillia, Krile, and Arenvald all have the blessing of light (two who state this being the case) all don't have their own crystal of light.

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Do you recall where it's stated that any of these 3 have the Blessing of Light? I did some research as I wasn't quite sure myself and what I found was only mentions of them having the Echo, but never the Blessing of Light.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

Meanwhile Yasale as we know has a crystal of light. That is unless the single crystal she uses is just an ice crystal while transforming into Shiva while free falling and not a crystal of light tm.

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Hmmm, it does have the same shape. Is the crystal she holds in that scene revealed at a previous point in the story? If so that might be the key to identifying whether it was a Crystal of Light.

Another thought: if the Echo prevents tempering, and all Ancients had the Echo, then that suggests that the Convocation could not have been tempered by Zodiark. Which honestly makes sense, as numerous named members of the Convocation commit acts that presumably they would not have been able to do if they were actually brainwashed into loyalty (Fandaniel and Mitron are the obvious examples, and there are arguments to be made for both Lahabrea and Emet-Selch).

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

Another thought: if the Echo prevents tempering, and all Ancients had the Echo, then that suggests that the Convocation could not have been tempered by Zodiark. Which honestly makes sense, as numerous named members of the Convocation commit acts that presumably they would not have been able to do if they were actually brainwashed into loyalty (Fandaniel and Mitron are the obvious examples, and there are arguments to be made for both Lahabrea and Emet-Selch).

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The Echo doesn't prevent tempering. That's an effect of the traveler's ward.

As for Zodiark; we're told point blank by the story the Convocation was tempered when they summoned him. Tempering is as its core the victim's aether being shifted strongly toward a particular elemental affinity, with a side effect of this being the erosion of their will and subsequent loyalty to the primal responsible. Beings with greater aetherial density are less vulnerable to it, as we saw with Tiamat. The ancients, being seemingly even more aetherially dense than Midgardsormr's brood, would logically retain even more autonomy than that.

Emet-Selch is a strange case, to be sure. He made it clear several times he was tired of the entire debacle, even attempting to settle down with his (as Solus) mortal family and abandon the cause entirely. This was of course thwarted when his son died, but the fact he was able to do it at all indicates a very high degree of resistance. Of course, this could in part be attributed to Zodiark's absence and/or the likelihood of it never having never really issued commands to its summoners to start with. They were tempered, but their "god's" only real purpose was to safeguard and heal the star.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

The Echo doesn't prevent tempering. That's an effect of the traveler's ward.

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I believe you are mistaken; it's explicitly stated that the Echo's protection against tempering is why Ysayle comes to fight Ravana with you, why Krile is able to help you against the Warring Triad, and why Arenvald and Fordola are able to help you against Lakshmi when she starts shooting...tempering orbs.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

I believe you are mistaken; it's explicitly stated that the Echo's protection against tempering is why Ysayle comes to fight Ravana with you, why Krile is able to help you against the Warring Triad, and why Arenvald and Fordola are able to help you against Lakshmi when she starts shooting...tempering orbs.

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The Echo seems to allow people to resist tempering (and shield others, to a certain degree). It can and indeed has been overpowered. The traveler's ward outright prevents it. Its primary function is that very thing; preventing the fouling of one's aether.

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Originally Posted by primarisgoazrr

The Echo
- Let’s you see into someone/something’s past (can be controlled apparently)
- Resist primal/corrupting influence (or impose your own influence in the case of resonant)
- A Universal translator
- Some users have unique ability

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In addition, there are some other qualities of the Echo that the WoL hasn't used yet (and may never use) but are worth mentioning as canonically being part of it:
- The ability to prevent your soul from returning to the Lifestream after death, and instead take control of another body.
- The ability to fuse with another person, as igeyorhmand Lahabrea demonstrate (as well as Lahabrea and Athena).

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

In addition, there are some other qualities of the Echo that the WoL hasn't used yet (and may never use) but are worth mentioning as canonically being part of it:
- The ability to prevent your soul from returning to the Lifestream after death, and instead take control of another body.
- The ability to fuse with another person, as igeyorhmand Lahabrea demonstrate (as well as Lahabrea and Athena).

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The Echo does not mean full access to abilities displayed by the ancients. As its name implies, it's little more than a faint echo of what its holders' past selves once wielded.

The unsundered Ascians retained most, if not all of their original power in this regard. Fragmented Ascians appeared to gain access to an abnormal amount of their former power after being "elevated." As for Zenos; his artificial Echo (at least before they seemingly partly walked it back in EW) seemed to be giving him many abilities beyond those present within a "natural" Echo, more specifically abilities we would typically attribute to Ascians.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

The Echo does not mean full access to abilities displayed by the ancients. As its name implies, it's little more than a faint echo of what its holders' past selves once wielded.

The unsundered Ascians retained most, if not all of their original power in this regard. Fragmented Ascians appeared to gain access to an abnormal amount of their former power after being "elevated." As for Zenos; his artificial Echo (at least before they seemingly partly walked it back in EW) seemed to be giving him many abilities beyond those present within a "natural" Echo, more specifically abilities we would typically attribute to Ascians.

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I agree with the spirit of your words, in that it's possible that certain flavors of Echo might not have all of the abilities. But technically, Lahabrea and Elidibus explicitly describe these powers as being part of Echo, so they feel worth incorporating into a list of the capabilities of the Echo. Noting that these powers may not be available to everyone with the Echo is a good clarification, though.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

The Echo seems to allow people to resist tempering (and shield others, to a certain degree). It can and indeed has been overpowered. The traveler's ward outright prevents it. Its primary function is that very thing; preventing the fouling of one's aether.

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Is there an example of someone with the Echo being tempered?

The only thing I can recall is Emet-Selch saying that Zodiark tempered the Convocation, which I'm hesitant to embrace as objective lore because he is at times an unreliable source.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

Do you recall where it's stated that any of these 3 have the Blessing of Light? I did some research as I wasn't quite sure myself and what I found was only mentions of them having the Echo, but never the Blessing of Light.


Hmmm, it does have the same shape. Is the crystal she holds in that scene revealed at a previous point in the story? If so that might be the key to identifying whether it was a Crystal of Light.

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After the Isle of Vale is Destroyed and during the time we are trying to find the Scions in heavensward Krile explicitly says that the blessing of light protected her from the Isle's destruction (it also says this in the Unending codex as well see link below). Also when Elidibus hits Minfillia with a spell of darkness at the old base he makes a comment about Hydaelyn's protection on her.

https://www.theunendingcodex.com/persons/krile

ps I doubled checked to make sure that post is valid if you still don't believe it then you can check your own Unending codex.

Also Ryne has the blessing of light as well which protects her from the Sineaters.. it was an entire plot point of ShB oh and she didn't have the echo and she's never heard Hydaelyn


Also as a quick counter point Elidibus used the exact same attack he used on Minfillia on G'raha before the SoS fight on the First and due to G'raha not being "blessed" by Hydaelyn the attack was withstood because he was 8 times rejoined and that was remarked upon by Elidibus as well (the Scene where Elidibus shows up while we are feeling the "wind" on our face)

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

Is there an example of someone with the Echo being tempered?

The only thing I can recall is Emet-Selch saying that Zodiark tempered the Convocation, which I'm hesitant to embrace as objective lore because he is at times an unreliable source.

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One of the moon rabbits touches on it while explaining the difference between proper creation magics and the flawed summoning magic shared by the Ascians. As you're likely aware, the former does not include the flaws of aether consumption and tempering. There is, however, one exception noted during the explanation: beings on the scale of Zodiark. As it's explained, Zodiark tempered them through its sheer, overwhelming power alone. This was described by the rabbit in question as feeling a "slight tug," which in context would be the seemingly lesser form of tempering we see afflicting the unsundered. Well, Emet-Selch, at least. Elidibus was little more than a primal driven by singular purpose for most of the time we knew him, and Lahabrea was so far gone to madness that his duty was all he saw. With them, it's difficult to tell how much was tempering and how much was just their unfortunate circumstances. Emet-Selch is really the closest thing we have to a proper gauge. At any rate, we're given no reason to believe he's an exception to the rule.

So, put simply, the Echo can be overwhelmed by a sufficiently powerful force. Big Z tempered a bunch of unsundered ancients just by existing, but it wasn't severe enough for them to lose themselves.

There's also the matter of memories. It is suggested during the Eden storyline that a sundered Ascian taking on their ancient memories will become subject to Zodiark's tempering again, just as their past selves had been. Notably, all of the sundered Ascians we encounter (with the exception of Fandaniel) seem to be far more strongly affected by it than their unsundered counterparts.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

Do you recall where it's stated that any of these 3 have the Blessing of Light? I did some research as I wasn't quite sure myself and what I found was only mentions of them having the Echo, but never the Blessing of Light.


Hmmm, it does have the same shape. Is the crystal she holds in that scene revealed at a previous point in the story? If so that might be the key to identifying whether it was a Crystal of Light.

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Thanks Rannie and Absimiliard. Arenvald doesn't say it, but since Venat tells us that it's the Blessing of Light that's supposed to be the thing that prevents tempering then it's only logical to assume any sundered echo wielder also has the Blessing. Heck it's the thing Nidhana is testing when she gives us that lantern. Which also means that those with the resonate also have a copied version of the Blessing.

I'm not sure if she's ever seen holding a crystal at any other point of time.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

The Echo does not mean full access to abilities displayed by the ancients. As its name implies, it's little more than a faint echo of what its holders' past selves once wielded.

The unsundered Ascians retained most, if not all of their original power in this regard. Fragmented Ascians appeared to gain access to an abnormal amount of their former power after being "elevated." As for Zenos; his artificial Echo (at least before they seemingly partly walked it back in EW) seemed to be giving him many abilities beyond those present within a "natural" Echo, more specifically abilities we would typically attribute to Ascians.

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I figure part of why Zenos is the way he is, is in part due to who his great grandfather is. He also seems to be a fast learner. Don't forget he also knew about the Reaper fighting style. Even if their teleportation and shielding is different from those Ascians use he'd probably have an idea as to how they work.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

I figure part of why Zenos is the way he is, is in part due to who his great grandfather is. He also seems to be a fast learner. Don't forget he also knew about the Reaper fighting style. Even if their teleportation and shielding is different from those Ascians use he'd probably have an idea as to how they work.

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Given we learned from Jullus that Reapers are at least academically known to Garleans, I don't think it's at all surprising that Zenos had some knowledge of and training in it. Especially given that he was Great Grandpa Solus' favorite, and Great Grandpa Solus loved nothing more than he loved dramatic irony.

Also it seems that Zenos got some sort of extra strength after he kicked Elidibus out of his body, but it's not super clear what exactly that was or meant. I kinda get the feeling even Zenos didn't care that much; he's sort of a frustrating person to talk about lore-wise in that way, because his interests are so narrow-focused that he doesn't even care enough to be a reliable source of information about himself.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

since Venat tells us that it's the Blessing of Light that's supposed to be the thing that prevents tempering then it's only logical to assume any sundered echo wielder also has the Blessing.

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With respect, I disagree that this assumption is logical. Venat tells us that her traveller's ward prevents aetheric corruption, which means it prevents tempering; that's not the same as it being the only thing that prevents tempering. We've seen plenty of other means to prevent tempering, including radios and alchemically infused dragon scales. Multiple things can have the same effect.

At the very least, the Heavensward writers claimed that the Echo prevented tempering. They even had Y'sthola — a character who has always been a reliable source of information and has never been framed as wrong about any lore/science/world-building she's said — be one of the characters to express it.

Ysayle (talking about the WoL fighting Ravanna): "Wait. Forename need not face this foe alone. Like him, I am blessed with the Echo's protection, and may do battle without fear of primal influence. Let me bear this burden."

Y'shtola (talking to about Krile and WoL entering Sephirot's priosn): "Indeed. Given the nature of our adversary, none save those under the aegis of the Echo should be permitted to enter the containment facility. The risk of primal influence is too great."

Using Occam's Razor, I feel like it makes sense to trust the writers' words that the Echo protects against tempering; that explains why everyone with the Echo — from the WoL to Ysayle to Arvenald to Fordola to Zenos to Fandaniel — can't be tempered with a single elegant stroke, without making any assumptions about who also has the Blessing of Light or who has some other special case that we have to make further assumptions about.

Though honestly, the more I research this, the less clear it becomes. In reality life is complex, but when it comes to good writing and world-building, a debate like this shouldn't be necessary. We can probably try to define what the Echo and the Blessing of Light are, but more true than any of those definitions is that over the course of FF14's history, various writers at various times have had different, perhaps even contradictory ideas about what the Echo and Blessing of Light are. And the result is that the text we are left with is convoluted and confusing because there isn't just one truth, there are several truths depending on where you're looking.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

Though honestly, the more I research this, the less clear it becomes. In reality life is complex, but when it comes to good writing and world-building, a debate like this shouldn't be necessary. We can probably try to define what the Echo and the Blessing of Light are, but more true than any of those definitions is that over the course of FF14's history, various writers at various times have had different, perhaps even contradictory ideas about what the Echo and Blessing of Light are. And the result is that the text we are left with is convoluted and confusing because there isn't just one truth, there are several truths depending on where you're looking.

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The current interpretation for the most part falls in line with what writers set forth in Stormblood and ShB, and it appears to be what they intend to roll with going forward. ARR and Heavensward did a fairly poor job at drawing a line between the two in many cases. Stormblood began to make things a little clearer, after which ShB and EW continued on the course it laid out. In other words, we're probably supposed to be going off the current writing instead of looking back at all the early installment weirdness 1.0, ARR, and Heavensward were afflicted with.

I might also note Fordola and Zenos do not possess the Echo. Theirs are artificial, and they manifest far more powerfully than those of your typical Echo-bearer. What they have is referred to as Resonance. It may heavily resemble the Echo -- and indeed, it is meant to be a duplicate thereof -- but it is not, and it evidently does not come with the same set of limitations.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

The Echo does not mean full access to abilities displayed by the ancients. As its name implies, it's little more than a faint echo of what its holders' past selves once wielded.

The unsundered Ascians retained most, if not all of their original power in this regard. Fragmented Ascians appeared to gain access to an abnormal amount of their former power after being "elevated." As for Zenos; his artificial Echo (at least before they seemingly partly walked it back in EW) seemed to be giving him many abilities beyond those present within a "natural" Echo, more specifically abilities we would typically attribute to Ascians.

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We do see someone with the "regular" Echo live on after death: the Sahagin priest that summons Leviathan, who gets killed and then moves over to another body, then attempts to do so again before being eaten by Leviathan Himself.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

There's also the matter of memories. It is suggested during the Eden storyline that a sundered Ascian taking on their ancient memories will become subject to Zodiark's tempering again, just as their past selves had been. Notably, all of the sundered Ascians we encounter (with the exception of Fandaniel) seem to be far more strongly affected by it than their unsundered counterparts.

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This is consistent with what we know of modern tempering as well, as people who are cured of tempering have to have their memories of their tempered time removed or suppressed to be free of the Primal's influence. Memories and the suffusion of aspected aether are the main ingredients for tempering.