Let's Talk About Bard

Alright here we go. I am well aware of my reputation, especially with regards to my favorite job. This should hopefully clear up any misunderstandings (which seem horrifically frequent), as well as clarify my stance so that we can have actual sane discussions. Hopefully I can bring some things to the table, and hopefully you all can too--I don't presume to know everything there is to know, but I also don't presume myself to be the worst BRD player in NA. GIANT DISCLAIMER IN BOLD: the following is my opinion. Just because I think something is right doesn't mean I'm telling you that you are wrong. Our mileages and experiences with the job may vary greatly, but the following thoughts are the result of the sum of my experiences.

BRD is a win-more value engine and a combat support. It cannot and will not ever be the star job on any given team comp, and it cannot and will not ever carry (given relatively competent players on both teams). BRD is a force multiplier that, when played correctly, can help good players beat great ones. It cannot, however, create miracles, and it cannot save losing fights unless they are very very close. In short, it pretty much only looks good when its team looks good.

Let's talk about its strengths. It has excellent flexibility with its burst, which--while relatively middling--requires little setup and is (largely) available at range. Given good positioning, a BRD who reacts quickly enough can pivot to help the team secure a kill on any given target. Warden's Paean can sometimes make or break fights, especially since people aren't as accustomed to reading it (as opposed to the Resilience buff icon). People also seem to have trouble dealing with silence, though this is much more an issue with SE's UX decisions and players disrespecting the silence than it is an inherent function of the button. I'm not saying "jUsT pUrIfY lMaO", but...I AM saying that its effectiveness increases exponentially the more you disrespect it.

Other nice things that BRD brings to the table are small teamwide damage amps with good uptime, and the LB battery effect from their LB. That being said, I'm not listing these strictly under strengths because they are very much metered, and I do not believe that they entirely offset BRD's impotence in other areas. They help, but given the choice between a 10% partywide buff or a Sky Shatter, I think I know which one most people would pick to end a fight. Numbers for the curious: there's a 5% damage buff with 100% uptime, upgrading to a 10.25% buff with nominally 50% uptime (10s every 20s), and again upgrading to a 21.275% buff with 25% uptime (30s every 120s.) Technically, you'll only have the 21.275% for 20s of the LB duration if you line up everything perfectly, with 10s only giving a 15.5% buff. Keep in mind that buffs are multiplicative, so these will grow in effectiveness if you have other buffing jobs on your team. It's unclear at the moment how the game racks and stacks multiplicative precedence, but I suspect it might be on a first-applied basis.

BRD LB also grants a flat 2s of LB charge for each server tick (ie 3s) that a teammate is within range, so it nominally grants 20s of charge per person per LB. Keep in mind that with a 2min cooldown, this means that NOBODY is getting an extra cast of LB from a BRD unless the match goes for at least a minute of overtime. Not necessarily an uncommon occurrence, but it's food for thought. More accurately, BRD will be granting 40s of LB within regulation time, with 20s given by 2:30 and 40s total given by 4:10 (since it fuels itself). The BRD will not get LB again until 20s OT, so they will only grant an additional LB to the fastest jobs at 50s OT. This assumes that the BRD a) never dies, b) mashes LB on cooldown, and c) nobody is holding onto LB when the BRD uses theirs. LB economy discrepancies have always and will continue to be primarily driven by deaths.

Okay now let's talk about weaknesses. BRD burst is not the strongest or most instantaneous in the game. It is not even close. BRD's most powerful burst button deals less damage than a single Recuperate, unless 13230 is somehow larger than 15000. That button also has an abysmal potency-to-cooldown ratio, and the obligatory Powerful Shot spam to recharge it at a remotely reasonable rate means that BRD does not have the luxury of hiding for Elixir between burst windows. BRD's entire combo will not kill the squishiest job in the game unless the BRD has LB up, and even then a single Recuperate will prevent the death. Correctly placed BRD burst is usually used to clean up kills that the team couldn't otherwise complete, which is probably why people have such a skewed perception of BRD lethality.

As a little addendum on damage, the inverse damage falloff means that BRD is probably hands down the worst job for contesting the crystal, which makes things a bit tricky when the whole game mode is built around contesting the crystal. I'm not gonna open the randomized team comps can of worms too much here, but let's just say that WAR/MNK/WHM/AST/DNC vs BRD/MCH/NIN/WHM/SGE doesn't exactly look too hot for the BRD team.

Obligatory positional separation from the team, combined with a long cooldown and short range on Repelling Shot, means that BRD survivability isn't exactly the greatest. It's not the worst, I'll give it that. But it's not "extremely slippery" like some people have called it in past discussions. In a world where many jobs have a charged dash system with half the cooldown and twice the range of Repelling Shot, it's not exactly difficult to hunt down BRD with its sub-average HP pool. Average HP among the 19 jobs is 54800; median HP is 55500. For the nitpicky among you, 51000 IS the most common HP value, but only 3/19 jobs carry it. "But it carries a bind!" Sure, and there are myriad ways to deal with said bind. Or don't deal with it at all--just bring a dive buddy and join him 2s later once the bind wears off. The great majority of players are melee DPS, so I'm sure you won't have too much trouble finding one. Add to this that Silent Nocturne no longer outranges ANY targeted gap closers, and it isn't too terribly difficult to see BRD having a hard time against the ubiquitous dive-and-burst style that dominates much of CC gameplay.

So what does all this mean? At the end of the day, what's my stance on the job? Well, it's still my favorite job, for both personal and gameplay reasons. I've always loved the combative support role, and the midrange dance has always been my favorite space in which to play. But I don't think it's a particularly strong job, plagued as it is by many relative weaknesses and a lack of QoL (Repertoire/Pitch Perfect not stacking, for example). Does this mean the job is absolutely weak? Not at all. When used correctly, it's an excellent janitor job, kind of like a discount NIN LB on wheels.

But I will reiterate this as many times as it takes: the reliance of BRD on its teammates in order to complete its game plan, combined with its lack of ability to cause major swings in net HP, means that it is relatively very weak without high amounts of team coordination. It has very poor AoE per rotation/combo for a DPS, and it has next to no protective ability--certainly no AoE protective ability. Its single-target damage, as laid out above, is not the amazing killing engine that everyone seems to feel that it is.

Every counterpoint I have heard about BRD always comes back to something like "but it's so good at helping its team do xyz", and that's exactly my point. We're literally agreeing. It IS good at helping its team, but my point is that it does not and cannot excel outside of that role. Which is perfectly fine with me, barring some minor QoL things that I wish would change. I wish PP stacked, for example, and I wish Silent Nocturne at least matched most gap closers at 20y. Or, yknow, maybe make it a 25y line AoE with 8000 potency.

In any case, please let me know if anything is unclear here, or if there are any disagreements or questions. I would be happy to field any civil discussion on offer. Happy hunting everyone!

BRD falls pretty heavily into the basket of jobs that are focused on AoE pressure and peel. DNC or SCH are other culprits, but not as much as BRD and they have other strengths.

BRD damage party buffs are potent, but mostly on the long run, and so they are more diffuse and don't fit well within an all CC/burst meta. The LB is also in a similar spot (extremely underwhelming), and even the AoE damage is there to inflate its endgame tally numbers, which is deceiving. The only thing that fits within the CC/burst meta is Nocturne.

If there is one thing that doesn't shine as much as it could (or actually did in Feast with SCH), it's AOE pressure on party resources (HP/MP) and it's a lot less fundamental than it used to be in the previous mode, even though burst was also the determining factor, as usual.

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Originally Posted by Valence

BRD falls pretty heavily into the basket of jobs that are focused on AoE pressure and peel. DNC or SCH are other culprits, but not as much as BRD and they have other strengths.

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Originally Posted by Myrha_Lhlalheva

It has very poor AoE per rotation/combo for a DPS, and it has next to no protective ability--certainly no AoE protective ability.

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I wouldn't say 16400 in-line AoE every 20s over 2 GCDs even qualifies for AoE pressure. Peeling with BRD is a very catch-22 situation: if you use Paean for someone else, you become much more vulnerable for the duration of its cooldown. If you use silence or Repelling Shot to peel/shut down a combo, then it's no longer available to lock down a kill.

With the Nocturne range nerf, BRD is no longer in the business of creating opportunities. All it's good for now is being a buff totem, punishing mispositioning, and gunning down fleeing enemies who have <20% HP left.

Prior to the nerf, they were a job that relied on their teammates to secure kills, but it wasn't an extremely heavy reliance as nocturn windows were decently bursty. The range nerf AND the removal of damage from nocturn has made them completely reliant on their team because now BRD is forced to move in closer to the fight and their burst window is significantly weaker.... which is completely counter intuitive to their design with powerful shot.

They need to revert the changes made recently on BRD and it should have happened weeks ago.

I like how Powerful Shot feels. I wonder if they had designed HW BRD to allow for slow movement and for the basic shot looking and sounding better if it would have been better received. Maybe our pve pRanged jobs would be more distinct from each other today.

Arguably, the design fit MCH way better back then and they just slapped it onto BRD too for 'role balance'.

I know this probably isn't the discussion you're trying to have, but Powerful Shot feels way better than any other BRD pve filler-attack has ever.

The damage nerf from nocturne is definitely not something that dramatically affected BRD burst damage output lol, let's not get silly for a minute there. The added potency was so weak that it was essentially what it was: something you'll still take because why not, and technically making it a nerf once removed, but come on. It doesn't change a damn thing on the greater scheme.

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Originally Posted by Myrha_Lhlalheva

I wouldn't say 16400 in-line AoE every 20s over 2 GCDs even qualifies for AoE pressure. Peeling with BRD is a very catch-22 situation: if you use Paean for someone else, you become much more vulnerable for the duration of its cooldown. If you use silence or Repelling Shot to peel/shut down a combo, then it's no longer available to lock down a kill.

With the Nocturne range nerf, BRD is no longer in the business of creating opportunities. All it's good for now is being a buff totem, punishing mispositioning, and gunning down fleeing enemies who have <20% HP left.

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That was perhaps poorly worded. Bard is essentially a job applying a lot of diffuse effects and diffuse effects tend to falter pretty bad in comparison to actual hard meta on damage and burst. But it can definitely help a good team that bursts well as you said.

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Originally Posted by Valence

That was perhaps poorly worded. Bard is essentially a job applying a lot of diffuse effects and diffuse effects tend to falter pretty bad in comparison to actual hard meta on damage and burst. But it can definitely help a good team that bursts well as you said.

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Ah ok, i see what you're saying. Definitely agreed on that count

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Originally Posted by Post

I like how Powerful Shot feels. I wonder if they had designed HW BRD to allow for slow movement and for the basic shot looking and sounding better if it would have been better received. Maybe our pve pRanged jobs would be more distinct from each other today.

Arguably, the design fit MCH way better back then and they just slapped it onto BRD too for 'role balance'.

I know this probably isn't the discussion you're trying to have, but Powerful Shot feels way better than any other BRD pve filler-attack has ever.

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I probably would have been more acceptive of bowmage if it was like that.

With that said, I don't hate powerful shot design in pvp. I think its fine overall, but I dislike that they made this design for BRD and are now actively making changes to other BRD tools that go completely against the design. If they want me to risk moving in closer for nocturn, or to fight on the crystal etc... then remove the damage penalty for being closer to an enemy. Don't punish a player with counter intuitive tools.

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Originally Posted by Valence

The damage nerf from nocturne is definitely not something that dramatically affected BRD burst damage output lol, let's not get silly for a minute there.

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It didn't but that's not the issue. The issue is they double nerfed it. If you're gonna force them into 15y to use it, then leave the damage on it or remove the damage and leave the range. Or at the very least they can leave the current nerfs but allow repelling shot to work at 15y instead of 10y.

they should have just kept the aoe rotation in pvp, now we got this mess.

BRD's current design is self-contradictory. The damage of the class is design such that it must stand more than 15y away. However, doing so robs it of an 8000 potency opportunity because it can no longer initiate Pitch Perfect off Silent Nocturne standing at such distances. In order to regain this opportunity, it has to stand less than 15y from the target. However, doing so significantly reduces the damage of both Powerful Shot and Pitch Perfect. The only way for BRD to optimize its damage is to dance back and forth at EXACTLY the 15y line from the target. How can you do this? You have to constantly pay attention to Silent Nocturne for the exact points when you can and cannot use the skill. In addition, the complete lack of significant survivability means that no BRD in their right mind is going to ever get closer than 15y to the fight; in fact, 20y is about as close as any reasonable BRD will ever want to get to a fight because we are such an easy kill target.

As a result of the change, Silent Nocturne has been shifted from an active skill to a skill of opportunity (if you just happen to be close, or can get in close and then back out before anyone notices); that is, you just sit on it until the situation is safe for you to use it. Most of the time as BRD, you are a totem; you provide a damage buff to your team and do continuous poke damage from the back to burn up recuperates on the enemy team.

BRD is able to join the dive to assist with a Silent Nocturne or a Repelling Shot; however, the BRD has to immediately retreat back to distance because they enemy team absolutely will retarget get to the easy-to-kill BRD in a heartbeat, making for an easy 5v4 situation, from their perspective. And to be sure, the BRD does provide a decent damage buff, making it more the priority that the enemy team kill the BRD.

Personally, I don’t mind the nerfing of Silent Nocturne's damage. Since they actually moved that damage to Apex Arrow, it washes out, because both Apex Arrow and Silent Nocturne have a 20sec CD. The most significant problem is the range nerf. Making the range 15y completely killed the BRD's ability to function beyond just being a buff totem. If they are concerned with how frequently BRD uses Silent Nocturne, give the class other options for proccing Pitch Perfect. Otherwise, reverse the distance nerf, or, at least, be willing to compromise with a 20y range ESPECIALLY CONSIDERING REDMAGE STILL HAS A 25y LINE AOE SILENCE FOR 8000 POTENCY TO ALL TARGETS IN THE LINE!. So why did BRD need to be nerfed this way but RDM didn’t?

I can agree that its counter productive for bard silence to receive a range nerf since it goes against what the class is built around.

Funny you all compare it to RDMs Resolution though, and every time neglect to mention that your silence is an oGCD and Resolution is not, in fact you cant even get a single GCD in yourself before the silence wears off from Resolution,and then in the same breath you say BRD relies too much on its team mates to capitalize on its tools.
Not to mention that you don't have to make a choice between your bind and your silence.
But yeah I guess just give BRD every classes best move and call it day Square.

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Originally Posted by kayll

I can agree that its counter productive for bard silence to receive a range nerf since it goes against what the class is built around.

Funny you all compare it to RDMs Resolution though, and every time neglect to mention that your silence is an oGCD and Resolution is not, in fact you cant even get a single GCD in yourself before the silence wears off from Resolution,and then in the same breath you say BRD relies too much on its team mates to capitalize on its tools.
Not to mention that you don't have to make a choice between your bind and your silence.
But yeah I guess just give BRD every classes best move and call it day Square.

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watch out everyone the bard is gonna deal 13k damage before the silence wears off, they're gonna one-shot every job in the game with that kind of bonkers damage

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Originally Posted by Myrha_Lhlalheva

watch out everyone the bard is gonna deal 13k damage before the silence wears off, they're gonna one-shot every job in the game with that kind of bonkers damage

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Apex>Silence>Empy>Blast,20k with silence.
Less reliance on teammate follow up than a Resolution just hitting 8k and thats it.
You can hit more if you use corps and displacement, but seems kinda wasteful blowing your movement on that unless you are sure it'll get you a kill.
You're pretty good at being willingly ignorant to the pros of your class, at least I hope its willful.

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Originally Posted by kayll

Apex>Silence>Empy>Blast,20k with silence.
Less reliance on teammate follow up than a Resolution just hitting 8k and thats it.
You can hit more if you use corps and displacement, but seems kinda wasteful blowing your movement on that unless you are sure it'll get you a kill.
You're pretty good at being willingly ignorant to the pros of your class, at least I hope its willful.

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I'd rather have a 25y line aoe silence that sits on the GCD over an oGCD silence that forces me into melee territory on a job that loses damage the closers you get to your target. Resolution is way more destructive when placed correctly than a single silence from a job with no real burst. RDM also has an aoe debuff or an aoe buff depending on their stance and has a real burst combo.

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Originally Posted by kayll

Apex>Silence>Empy>Blast,20k with silence.
Less reliance on teammate follow up than a Resolution just hitting 8k and thats it.
You can hit more if you use corps and displacement, but seems kinda wasteful blowing your movement on that unless you are sure it'll get you a kill.
You're pretty good at being willingly ignorant to the pros of your class, at least I hope its willful.

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20k huh. So less than half the hp of the squishiest jobs. Let's toss the entire BRD combo in there and bring the total up to 47270, which is...still not enough to kill literally anyone with literally zero responses. Sure, Repelling Shot isnt included in there, but the likelihood of you getting two full 8820 PPs and ALSO getting close enough for RS are very slim. Everything outside of the silence window you can also just literally walk/sprint/dash away from, and how is the BRD gonna safely chase you? They can't.

"Blowing RDM mobility for dmg is weird unless you're going for a kill", well last I checked RDM wasn't a phys ranged designed to poke from the fringes, and was designed to go in and deal damage and gun for kills. That's like saying spending High Jump or Thunderclap for dmg is weird unless you're going for a kill.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

I'd rather have a 25y line aoe silence that sits on the GCD over an oGCD silence that forces me into melee territory on a job that loses damage the closers you get to your target. Resolution is way more destructive when placed correctly than a single silence from a job with no real burst. RDM also has an aoe debuff or an aoe buff depending on their stance and has a real burst combo.

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I already said its silly that BRD silence lost range, it makes no sense and I agree that should be reverted to its full range.
I never said Resolution was a bad move,I implied it was RDM's best move in my opinion. The comparison to Nocturne just makes no sense because the skills function differently and are used in different ways during a match.
Not sure why you're bringing up RDM burst or its AoE buff/debuff.

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Originally Posted by Myrha_Lhlalheva

20k huh. So less than half the hp of the squishiest jobs. Let's toss the entire BRD combo in there and bring the total up to 47270, which is...still not enough to kill literally anyone with literally zero responses. Sure, Repelling Shot isnt included in there, but the likelihood of you getting two full 8820 PPs and ALSO getting close enough for RS are very slim. Everything outside of the silence window you can also just literally walk/sprint/dash away from, and how is the BRD gonna safely chase you? They can't.

"Blowing RDM mobility for dmg is weird unless you're going for a kill", well last I checked RDM wasn't a phys ranged designed to poke from the fringes, and was designed to go in and deal damage and gun for kills. That's like saying spending High Jump or Thunderclap for dmg is weird unless you're going for a kill.

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I'm not sure why you think a class designed with a supportive role in a team based game should be 1 comboing half the classes in the game within a silence window,20k is pretty respectable damage to be hit by in the middle of a silence, You throw it out on people who are in a weakened state, not tab target on to full HP targets who will be able to just recoup after.
You keep summing up the overall damage BRD deals with all its abilities as if its the only important thing.
The burst being able to weave in a silence as well?
Being able to do it safely from ranged?
Being able to hotswap your burst onto priority targets?
Stopping CC peel during it with Peaen?
All if it coming out faster due to weaponskill cast time reduction?



Please reread what I said, the point of the comment was to explain that if you used both your oGCDs on RDM after Resolution it would net you an extra 8k damage within the silence, But it seems wasteful unless you are to get a kill within the silence, as it would place you too far to follow up with a melee combo unless you use another gap closer charge further adding to the waste. The comparison to DRG and and MNK make no sense in this scenario,DRG has no CC, and MNK thunderclap doesn't even deal damage to the enemy.

Nah, talk about BRD all you want, but kayll's absolutely right that Resolution should not be compared to Silent Nocturne.

It's only coming up because it's still 25y and the only other silence that exists. Because it's on the GCD, RDM shouldn't be able to apply silence as reactively as BRD can because it's significantly tied to their damage and because they have to hold ALL damage if their trying to time it (RDM has no oGCD). AoE is one thing, but that's just as much the receiving team's job to limit that. Tons of Crystalline is about recognizing when to spread out.

Everything supportive and disruptive BRD does can be on immediate reaction to capitalize on an ally's initiative or an opponent's openness. It even gets a more momentary amplification of its buff and burst in the form of Blast Arrow so that it can Apex more freely.

No job SHOULD be able to completely global another without a misplay on someone's part, be that from misposition, not saving defensives, or simply letting the RPR live to 8 stacks. BRD can at the very least dump an extra 20k on top of their teammates's push with silent/Apex (or blast)/Empty on pretty much demand at any target. The moment RDM(or any other melee) jumps in on someone and pops their burst, the victim should be getting some sort of support from their team (be that offense or defense), falling back or guarding anyways. BRD stands ready to punish someone the moment that Guard ends with a silence, bind, and/or Empy, like WHM with MoN. Is that not right?

I agree that Nocturne's range reduction doesn't really fit the rest of the BRD strengths, and if they wanted to nerf it they probably shoulda just stuck with damage or duration.

Because this is a thread about BRD and not just to complain about the recent nerf, can you explain if I'm wrong with that line of reasoning? Does (did) BRD not generally function that way before? Cuz I'll tell you, I always know when I'm up against a good BRD because the moment I dive in I'm eating some kind of CC that screws up my approach it my retreat, no matter where I'm fighting.

Well it seems like neither of you read the OP and just jumped in here to start posting, so I'll direct you there first.

I never asked for BRD to be one-shotting everything it touches, but people repeatedly insist that it does insane damage. I am providing numbers to show that it doesn't.

Nothing brought up here hasn't already been covered in my OP, so yeah

BRD wasn't one shotting anything to begin with....