P10S is easily the worst designed fight in the history of FFXIV since ARR

Title kinda says it all. We need to be ranting about this fight design, because it demands far too much for a second turn in a raid tier.

The positioning is insanely picky with near zero recovery available. Why are we demanding final fight mechanics in the second turn?

Please do not allow whoever designed this fight to return and design another. No one wants it or needs it. It is a failure of a fight. I'm surprised that it made it past QA.

I honestly,
at least from my perspective,
Think its pretty fun! granted haven't cleared yet with the static but it is far from the worst fight ever.
I am glad there is some challenge with the final floors.

If you could provide specific examples you have faced with mechs, Would love to discuss it further with you. Saying that positioning is insanely picky isnt much to go off of unless you can provide examples.
Then again as a BLM positioning is all I do...
But, I am curious and want to have an open discussion about it! Let me hear your story!

Thank you for your time!

It's a bad fight because it exploits the weaknesses of SE's servers in the pandaemonic bonds mechanics.

Whenever you have to locate another person to stack with or spread away from in tight spaces, as the game requires, its a total crapshoot. This game pings player locations unbelievably slowly, and when the game is restricting your positioning and pushing you around it can be hit or miss whether the game registers your movement or not.

The fight wasn't fun to prog. It wasn't fun to clear. It's not fun to reclear and it won't be fun to farm. It just sucks and whoever made the fight should probably think twice before trying again.

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Originally Posted by Warrlordd

Title kinda says it all. We need to be ranting about this fight design, because it demands far too much for a second turn in a raid tier.

The positioning is insanely picky with near zero recovery available. Why are we demanding final fight mechanics in the second turn?

Please do not allow whoever designed this fight to return and design another. No one wants it or needs it. It is a failure of a fight. I'm surprised that it made it past QA.

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Yes, this fight is horrible, the Stack mechanics are way too tightly timed (needs 1 more second between stack/spread goes off)
also they are not traditional stacks where the damage is split it feels like, if you stack wrong, you just die and can't survive with shields or mitigation, compared to P11s, you can even survive the light party stacks with two people instead of 4 with enough shield/mit, but the debuffs in P10 require you to stack with 4 people, if youre not 4 everyone in the stack just dies.

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Originally Posted by Warrlordd

It's a bad fight because it exploits the weaknesses of SE's servers in the pandaemonic bonds mechanics.

Whenever you have to locate another person to stack with or spread away from in tight spaces, as the game requires, its a total crapshoot. This game pings player locations unbelievably slowly, and when the game is restricting your positioning and pushing you around it can be hit or miss whether the game registers your movement or not.

The fight wasn't fun to prog. It wasn't fun to clear. It's not fun to reclear and it won't be fun to farm. It just sucks and whoever made the fight should probably think twice before trying again.

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Maybe you have a problem with that, but when I do this fight, I have no problem with Bonds mechanics in terms of servers fixing your location (this is taking into the fact that I have an high ping (I live near Japan and play on Europe servers) and I have problems with double weaving). I only have a problem with the team itself not being able to do the mechanics, lol. Anyway, the game gives quite enough time for positioning during spread or stack/pair stack

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Originally Posted by Arohk

Yes, this fight is horrible, the Stack mechanics are way too tightly timed (needs 1 more second between stack/spread goes off)
also they are not traditional stacks where the damage is split it feels like, if you stack wrong, you just die and can't survive with shields or mitigation, compared to P11s, you can even survive the light party stacks with two people instead of 4 with enough shield/mit, but the debuffs in P10 require you to stack with 4 people, if youre not 4 everyone in the stack just dies.

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Enumerations are as old as Alexander - The Burden of the Son (A8N).

Correction: they were also in T8 (Second Coil of Bahamut - Turn 3)

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Originally Posted by Warrlordd

It's a bad fight because it exploits the weaknesses of SE's servers in the pandaemonic bonds mechanics.

Whenever you have to locate another person to stack with or spread away from in tight spaces, as the game requires, its a total crapshoot. This game pings player locations unbelievably slowly, and when the game is restricting your positioning and pushing you around it can be hit or miss whether the game registers your movement or not.

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This sounds a lot like a you problem.

P10S is funny because you can play it entirely without markers (and for me people should be marking the solo platform not the main one, since the big one got many visual references, the smaller you can easily clip others). I only play on PF and I consider myself new to this content (I started raiding last tier and stopped a bit before p2 of p8s, now progging p11s.. all PF)... not new to MMOs btw... and my ping is bad as hell.

Maybe the intensity of some combined effects/attacks can be a problem for the players who aren't prepared for it, it is a fight that requires a lot of attention and got some dynamic events like the debuffs exploding requiring some kind of "soak". IMO the big problem is just HH, and I'm not a pro player.

For me debuff mechanics (bound to attack logics) should be deleted or nerfed in this game because some people have problems identifing what an icon is and sometimes you need to do it fast coordinating with other things (the big problem is the idea of changing your vision from the fight to UI icons, and in the case of P10s you must pay attention to debuffs of teammates too, it reminds p8s)... and yeah if you miss something, instant kill... this can become very frustrating for players.

Anyway, blaming the raid design itself can be imprecise, because most of us aren't doing it by logic but following a pattern that someone created (like Hector videos), so maybe we should just start to make our methods (tbh blind runs are fun, following a plan of someone else is boring).

p10s is actually a really well designed fight. The only thing I can really be seen as a problem is DB3 which is fast and requires precise positioning. The only other thing is Harrowing Hell which the damage is above Ultimate AOE damage, but even then there is 8 people with at least 8 mitigations so I don't see it as a poorly designed fight.

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Originally Posted by Naizakane

This sounds a lot like a you problem.

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Definitely not just a them problem. I haven't raided this tier, but I have noticed it in older fights that a combination of server latency and weird snapshots can absolutely screw you over. It's not my internet connection, either. My ping usually sits at around 15 to 25 and yet, there have been countless times where I ate a mechanic even though, on my screen, I had *very* clearly dodged it and timed said dodge correctly. Thankfully most of those instances didn't outright kill me, but it still sucks. My entire static complained of the same thing and so does every single raider I know who is raiding this tier.

Actually this is a very good fight, what is ill designed to me is its positionning in the tier. P10S and P11S should be swapped (let's face it P11 is more of a joke than P10)

Aside from the lack of positionals, this is probably one of the better Savage fights that they've put out, and the person who designed it should be commended for taking some risks. The actual dps check itself was incredibly soft, even in the first week, and it's really a mechanics check more than anything else. The snapshots are not difficult even at high latency, but what catches people out is a failure to think one mechanic ahead of the one that they are currently on. Bonds goes out about 30 seconds in advance and the activation is debuff based rather than animation based, so there's absolutely nothing reactive about this fight if you understand it.

This has been an exceptional tier. And if the mechanics check on P10S was gated a bit too high, well... let's just say that it significantly improved the quality of the PF experience on the latter two fights.

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Originally Posted by Warrlordd

It's a bad fight because it exploits the weaknesses of SE's servers in the pandaemonic bonds mechanics.

Whenever you have to locate another person to stack with or spread away from in tight spaces, as the game requires, its a total crapshoot. This game pings player locations unbelievably slowly, and when the game is restricting your positioning and pushing you around it can be hit or miss whether the game registers your movement or not.

The fight wasn't fun to prog. It wasn't fun to clear. It's not fun to reclear and it won't be fun to farm. It just sucks and whoever made the fight should probably think twice before trying again.

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eh, you have ages to preposition yourself for literally everything. The only annoying part is breaking the tethers sometimes, but anything else is easy avoidable

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Originally Posted by PercibelTheren

Definitely not just a them problem. I haven't raided this tier, but I have noticed it in older fights that a combination of server latency and weird snapshots can absolutely screw you over. It's not my internet connection, either. My ping usually sits at around 15 to 25 and yet, there have been countless times where I ate a mechanic even though, on my screen, I had *very* clearly dodged it and timed said dodge correctly. Thankfully most of those instances didn't outright kill me, but it still sucks. My entire static complained of the same thing and so does every single raider I know who is raiding this tier.

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You need to learn about cast vs animation damage if you don't under stand why you are dying out side time dodges. With that being said you with Daemonic Bonds as soon as the timer wheres off you are snap shotted in that position. I always run when the debuff falls off and never kill the person next to me.

Yo, P10s slaps!

I really enjoy it, especially because it's managed to put in some inventive new ideas that have never been used before, but also because it deals a lot of damage and is a huge enough arena that range is something healers actually have to consider slightly.

I'm looking forward to whatever the mind behind p10s (and all the Another Sil'dihn Subterrain fights) is cooking up next. I love when fights are creative because we only get 4 of them per 8 months anyways. What's the rush in completing them?

I actually think the worst designed fight in the history of FFXIV since ARR is the Brachiosaur in the old Diadem. It would alternate spamming Meteor for 90% of everyone's max HP and "Discord" or something, which would apply a minute long, unremovable strong paralysis to everyone in like 50y, even those flying and not fighting it.

Talk about some proper old mmo style bullshit.

In ARR, I think that honor goes to the first boss of Tam-Tara hard mode, Levianne or whoever her name is. She requires a team (at level, mind, you can probably just burst her down at ilvl 130) to drop one of her aoes directly on adds she summons. Any direct action to an add causes it to explode in the whole party and applying a stacking vulnerability, and they come in such numbers that it will wipe the party on the second wave if they don't figure it out. Effectively, the fight doesn't give you an opportunity to learn the mechanic fairly and punishes DPS and tanks for doing what their supposed to do usually: DPS and tank. It also requires players to intentionally bomb their healer with an AoE. They revisited this idea in o5, a fight which does it much better by making the adds intangible and the aoe you aim at them avoidable. Coincidentally, that fight also slaps.

It rules when they introduce new ideas and then refine them in later fights. I loved to see them build on the web stuff they added back in Void Ark, and I love that they let us build or potentially screw ourselves over WHILE FIGHTING THE BOSS, something many "final floors" could learn from. Stupid boring High Concept.

From what I've seen, virtually every difficult fight this expansion has basically been "healers git gud", and if your healers are bad, it's going to be a hellish experience.

It doesn't help that they're not teaching healers to get good with 95% of the content, and that healer is mostly incredibly boring if you and your team ARE good.

Like, I get that they want the game and role itself to be accessible for everyone, but if they want to do that they should be more cognizant of the jumps in the difficulty curve that are widening. There's fewer dungeons and trials and they're easier on the whole to heal poorly, especially because most tanks can pinch hit as a healer after like 78.

DPS by contrast always have an incentive to improve that's felt: the duty goes way faster. Those binary healer checks are completely up to the developers to impose in a smoothe way from 1 thru 90. ARR dungeons and fates had attacks that would deal 100% of your tank's hp or your HP with a completely un-ground-telegraphed attacks; EW dungeon bosses are almost always telegraphed, even if late, and anyways dealing an amount of damage that is more than able to be covered just by a couple of your oGCD tools, even without good planning.

When suddenly the game says Harrowing Hell or more than 1 tankbuster/auto attack per minute, the healers taught that DPS is the most important thing or that they should always be able to dps without a loss take a little longer to adapt. And the stakes are a bit higher in a 10 min raid fight than a 3 minute dungeon one.

I find P10S really fun as well (did it as tank), but agree that it's not appropriate for a second floor.

The body checks are kind of crazy but it's not a super unique fight in that regard. I don't think this fight would stick out as much if it were a third or fourth floor.

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Originally Posted by Warrlordd

Title kinda says it all. We need to be ranting about this fight design, because it demands far too much for a second turn in a raid tier.

The positioning is insanely picky with near zero recovery available. Why are we demanding final fight mechanics in the second turn?

Please do not allow whoever designed this fight to return and design another. No one wants it or needs it. It is a failure of a fight. I'm surprised that it made it past QA.

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I agree with you on it but it's not the fight alone that is causing the problem. This fight design would have been fine back in Shadowbringers because in that situation we had more survivability. In Endwalker we lost a lot in that regard because they pushed mitigation being a necessity even with improving gear. Back at min iLvL in Shadowbringers it was still necessary, just that people who were a little less optimal could expect to get better results when their gear got better.

With the new design the only option to make the fight easier with gear is to out dps the fight to remove a phase. So with p10s this all multiplies out into being a fight that should be doable, but ends up being worse than the final two because of one mess up ending the group.

Spent something upwards of 20+ hours now over a week with trying to clear it after seeing enrage and being able to perform literally every mechanic before and at HH perfectly, and there are so many people unable to do mechanics to the consistency needed that it drags the whole thing down. It's probably the least PF friendly savage fight in the game that they have released and I'd rank this higher than p3s with the color blindness issue and orange everywhere. p3s had about four points of total wipe. p10s almost every phase can result in a total wipe past the first three or four.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

Spent something upwards of 20+ hours now over a week with trying to clear it after seeing enrage and being able to perform literally every mechanic before and at HH perfectly, and there are so many people unable to do mechanics to the consistency needed that it drags the whole thing down. It's probably the least PF friendly savage fight in the game that they have released and I'd rank this higher than p3s with the color blindness issue and orange everywhere. p3s had about four points of total wipe. p10s almost every phase can result in a total wipe past the first three or four.

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If you think P10 is bad, good luck in P12. I have never seen a worse mechanic than Caloric Theory, it is the pinnacle of bullshit mechanics.

10s is a very good fight imo
definitely the best of the tier

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Originally Posted by Duskane

10s is a very good fight imo
definitely the best of the tier

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All the savage fights are badly designed intentionally. If anyone lived through the arcade game era they will know what I am talking about with how these fights are being put together, but effectively it is the blind-fold in the forest. People can see their feet and have to run fast, so it is inevitable someone will hit a tree, stumble over a branch, or something else. This was how the arcade systems worked because the idea was to get people to spend more money at the arcade.

In the MMO situation it is the exact same thing: the fight is built to be a blindfolded run through the forest and people are stumbling through it without knowing what to do until after they hit a tree. Then they got to remember how many steps to the tree, when they hit it, and where. Except now unlike the arcade situation there are several other people running alongside that person.

The reason people get salty and why some people say the fights are great while others say they are awful, is because the design of the fight requires eight people, not just one, to get through the forest. No matter how "good" someone is at learning mechanics, it isn't about that one person it is about all of the people learning the mechanics in the exact same way. So you get a few select groups of people who are well coordinated and have a lot of time clearing the content and calling it easy and fun, while the majority of people run in and are literally fighting each other on top of the fight.

The only content designed at all sensibly is the normal mode content, because it can be learned by everyone and gives enough freedom to allow for people to have their own strategy. IMO the problem that the standard content has is walking a tightrope between having enough dangers to require a strategy while also giving enough freedom to actually do the content in a loose way. If anything, that kind of content is harder to build than savage.

IMO, I do savage because it exists and the gear level. However, in its current state of existence it should NOT exist like this. We've been through literal years of people saying "oh this is easier than other games so it is okay", yet it isn't okay because it is causing pain and suffering instead of being fun for the majority. But no one really cares about that or acknowledges it: Those people who suffer must be bad at the game because they can't get past a fight that requires seven others to do things right, let alone those seven other people having to communicate to each other while not passing judgement at the same time.

And FYI, it feels like the only thing people do in PF is pass Judgement rather than communicate. Hard to blame them when they torture themselves doing 20+ hours and failing over and over for reasons that are related to strategy and coordination, not personal effort.

“STAY WHERE YOU ARE!”

For me this whole expansions savage tiers has been horrible. I'm glad all the ultimate raiders are having fun. But i live with adhd and haveing 5 different combos for 1 stack mechanic is just mentally to much. Then people get mad and don't understand that you're having troubles and just get toxic and it makes it mentally worse and u begin to second guess yourself and mess up more. Feeling to need to use third party tools just to raid, Didn't have this much trouble in shadowbringers. But the snap shots also weren't as fast as they're now. If raiding is only gonna cater to ultimate raiders then im okay with stepping away.

First time ever could care less theirs a new patch and unsubbed.

Honestly my only real complain with this fight is that HH deals physical damage.
If you run with a GNB plus DRK your party is lacking of two “extra” mits that shouldn’t be extra.
This shows how SE boosted WAR and PLD utility for…dunno.