The title says it all. You've been warned. Continued reading past this point is your own personal decision.
Still here?
Well okay then:
I was thinking about how the Tanks kind of have part of their class fantasy theme, but also...don't. The one that does it best is probably PLD - skilled swordsmen with a lot of defensive abilities for both themselves and for protecting their allies, and a hand full of Holy element spells between a heal, a single target attack, and an AOE attack. Fits the them of protective holy spellsword very well.
So I got to thinking, how do DRKs, or things VERY MUCH LIKE Dark Knights, tend to work in fantasy in general. Yes yes, DPS, I mean besides that. Thematically and class fantasy-wise.
DRK, like all the Tanks that aren't PLD, heals by naturally performing their 1-2-3 combo. While this is standard, it really doesn't make much sense for any of the three that do it - WAR, DRK, or GNB. OF THE THREE, DRK probably makes the most sense because of leeching life being one of their themes, but I feel like the standard 1-2-3 is the most boring and not impactful FEELING ways to do this possible.
What I'm about to propose is something that will not work in the game's current design and people will hate.
We're clear on that, right?
This isn't a serious proposal, because firstly, as a Healer main, I don't want Tanks/DPS to need us EVEN LESS. This is more of a "alongside a bunch of other changes to the game" before it would even be possible idea, more thinking in terms of class aesthetics and mechanics following class fantasy.
Crystal clear?
Okay, so here we go:
What if DRK had an ability specifically for sucking life out of enemies and controlling that life? But that actually felt a bit like magic.
DRK is supposed to be the Darkness/Shadow counterpart/inverse of PLD. Where PLD is Holy and Order and Light, DRK is Darkness and Chaos and Shadow. But it doesn't feel it.
DRK has several abilities that are "Spell" (instead of "Weaponskill" or "Ability"), but they're all quick fire things. Its ranged attack, Unmend, and its AOE combo of Unleash and Stalwart Soul are all "Spells", but while the visual effect is VAGUELY magical, they don't really feel like spells. Not compared to Clemency, Holy Spirit, and Holy Circle, anyway.
DRK is a Dark element spellsword to PLD's Holy element spellsword, but feels much less the spell.
Moreover, in line with the Darkness theme, the archetype (which also shares with things such as WoW's Death Knights, FFXIV's RPR, and FFTactics Dark Knight) has a history that involves things like leeching and manipulating life.
So here's the idea:
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Give DRK a channeled spell. 30 sec CD, channeled, can last up to 15 seconds if not cancelled by another action. Could make it where moving cancels it or could make it like MCH PvP where it slows your walking speed.
"That's a horrible idea, Ren!"
I said it wasn't, didn't I? But how does it work?
On activation, and for each second channeled, it does the following things:
1) Deals 300 potency; the initial hit and all 6 ticks, 7 total, would thus do 2,100 potency of damage, but this would be you standing stationary for 15 seconds.
2) Heals the DRK for 100 potency per tick; 700 over the 15 second duration.
3) Gives the DRK a stacking buff of something. "Captured Essence", let's call it. "Stolen Essence"? Okay, maybe that's too Memoriate, but whatever, just "Essence" for now. THIS is important for later. Lasts for 15 seconds (so that it would fall off, on a full 15 second channel, just before the ability comes off CD again). Stacks up to 5 times.
4a) On use of TBN on self or ally, consumes all stacks of "Essence", healing the target for 100 potency per stack of Essence (up to 500 for 5 stacks).
4b) On use of Dark Missionary, consumes all stacks of "Essence", healing each party member for 50 potency per stack of Essence (up to 250 for 5 stacks).
5) As part of all this, the 1-2-3 healing from Souleater would also be removed. (Again, I would do this with War and GNB, and probably with PLD's Holy Spirit/Circle, too)
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So, what's the goal here?
1) To give DRK a bit more of a "dark spellcaster" feel alongside its sword mechanics. A real dark mage/blood mage thing alongside the sword part of "spellsword".
2) To give it some party healing, but party healing that is THEMATIC - one thing I absolutely HATE about WAR right now is the disgusting amount of party healing it does for a class fantasy that is supposed to be a magic-less unga-bunga barbarian. The idea of leeching life from enemies, storing it, and redirecting it to either heal the DRK or their allies seems more fitting.
3) Making healing a trade-off; Tanks having healing I don't as much a problem with, but I think the problem is that it's TOO free. This isn't just DRK. I'd also propose similar things for GNB and WAR. I think PLD does this right, since to heal it has to use Clemency, which means trading damage for healing. It's not quite old Tank stance/DPS stance that Tanks used to have, but it should be a trade off, a decision, whether you want to heal yourself or not as a Tank (or as anyone, really).
4) This also allows for decision making on the part of the DRK as they can decide if they want to use the full duration for healing, or only as much as they need, and then they can decide how they want to use the stacks of Essence, whether to heal themselves, a party member, or a weaker AOE heal.
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Other variations on this theme could be a DoT with a cast time that does the same thing but doesn't require channeling (but I'm not sure that'd be a big enough trade-off, so the potencies would have to be nerfed), removing the heal itself so only Essence is used for actual healing, or something like that.
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I dunno, just different ways of considering the problem and dealing with the thematic element of how it would or should make sense in lore vs what makes a lot less. WAR shouting at people "HEAL YOURSELF!!" or DRK just smacking things with a sword in a "standard" attack producing healing are things that seem a lot less to me.
But I did say it was a completely stupid idea, right?
A completely stupid DRK idea
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06-13-2023, 03:08 AMRenathrasA completely stupid DRK idea
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06-13-2023, 03:27 AMTintThat's a horrible idea, Ren!Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Tanks can't stay still. They get more AoEs thrown at them than any other role. They also have to adjust placing of enemies, run off to grab adds, DRK in particular has to aim his line AoEs by making a side step from time to time... you can dodge some attacks with breaking the line of sight / running behind the enemy...
And slow walking speed is just unfun. They even have removed it from gatherer classes.
I think DRK should get rid of all the off-GCD attacks. It's a huge and heavy sword, it should swing slowly. Instead give back Dark Arts. Let us channel the magic into the sword which then increases the potency of the next attack. Just like it was in Stormblood. Build mana, spend mana. But without cast times. Tanks need to be mobile. -
06-13-2023, 05:08 AMRenathrasI mean...I DID say it was. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tint
For the record, though: Tanks don't have to move more than most other Jobs. Can you think of any part of Ex6 that the Tank has to move around significantly more than other Jobs? And they can choose when to use the ability as it's a DPS loss so it's not part of the standard rotation. Moreover, they can hold the stacks generated until a future ability, and they can also do what PLD (Passage of Arms) and AST (Collective Unconcious) by clipping it short after they've got the healing/stacks that they want (note that on use would generate one stack of Essence and Essence caps at 5 stacks, meaning the last two stacks are purely if you want a little more healing for yourself but DON'T want to use the Essence stacks for it)
Granted, the channel could probably be a shorter 10 sec given the 5 stacks by then anyway, but yeah.
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I did say it's a horrible idea, so... :p
EDIT: But it's definitely DIFFERENT. :D
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EDIT2:
Fair points, all.
I did mention a DoT that generates the stacks as an alternative. I tend to generally be goody-two-shoes-Light element type myself, so WHM/PLD, but I really appreciate classes really nailing an aesthetic, and something about a DRK holding their hand out sucking the life out of things like Palpatine or something seems at least somewhat thematically fitting. And being able to then channel/redirect this stolen essence to heal themselves or allies seems like it would be pretty cool. It seems better to me, anyway, than "1-2-3, I gained a little health! Woo!" while WAR's over here "I heal you and I heal me, wheeeee! I heal you more in AOE!!!", what with one of the more consistent complaints I see from DRKs is that they DON'T have some method of curing/healing themselves well, or allies at all.
I just thought something like this would thematically be pretty cool to see and engage with, as well as filling that void and giving DRK a lore/thematic way to do it that makes some sense and is fitting to DRK and distinct from PLD's Holy healing or GNB and WAR's...uh...whatever they do? Healing bullets? Making everyone ELSE too angry to die, too? I got nothin'. XD
But I guess if folks don't like the concept, than they don't. :)
I did say it was a horrible idea. :) -
06-13-2023, 06:32 AMSazuzaki
I mean, yeah it's impractical, but it does sound pretty damn cool and fun to properly pull off.
I agree with Tint tho. I wish DRK was more about heavy-GCD based attacks that you have to empower using your mana. -
06-13-2023, 08:25 AMLyth
An issue that needs to be addressed before any of this is merging Skill Speed and Spell Speed down into a singular Haste stat. Otherwise, it's a disadvantage for a job to have both Weaponskills and Spells simultaneously.
Aesthetically, one of the differences between PLD and DRK is that PLD is a part-time spellcaster, while DRK generally channels magic directly into their weapon. This is historical, as well, given that Paladin Cecil could stop and cast some spot healing and support spells, while Dark Knight Cecil primarily fired off blasts of magical energy through his sword.
There's been a bit more overlap as of late with PLD's Confiteor combo showing some influence from Agrias in Tactics, but I'd really like to see those Ivalician 'Unyielding Blade' style sword techniques brought in as a dedicated Sword Saint/Templar job in honour of Cidolfus Orlandeau (perhaps Scouting, to fit with the hood aesthetic.) Crush Helm please.
The idea of DRK focusing on 'enervating' their opponents is an interesting one. If you were going to do Lifesteal, you'd probably just apply a DoT to your opponent that heals you back over time that you can situationally consume for additional damage/healing. Alternatively, you could take a 'swap places' approach, and deal back damage dealt in the past few seconds in exchange for some health. If you wanted to mitigate an attack, you might have a defensive that adds a stacking damage down debuff to the attacker based on the amount of damage that you've taken from them. -
06-13-2023, 08:57 PMMalthirHere's the thing, they were like that in Heavensward. There kit was a mess and didn't synergise well but Dark arts would add additional effects to moves such as adding in blinds, I believe a damage down on one move and a defence debuff for enemies. They had more dots than the other tanks and they had parry which was essentially unique to the Dark they had reprisal which I believe could only be used on a parry. They had a buff which gave them increased parry rate too they basically acted as the opposite of a paladin with parry the opposite to the paladin block and the dots and debuffs the counter to the paladins heal and buffs. When they pressed Darkside their mana pool would constantly drain so you had to make you mind up when you were gonna use it to burst, then cancel it to go back to recharging mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Imo although their kit was trash and didn't really make a great deal of sense it was the most enjoyable Drk build we've ever had, you always had buttons to press you weren't trapped in 123 hell. It was enjoyable, the world was at peace, and the the stormblood expansion attacked. They got rid of TP and then uniformed mana so we all had the same amount, this didn't really effect the other tanks as they only really used TP and not mana except the one time a paladin healed and everyone laughed at how bad it was. For Drks it was crippling, they completely removed most of our abilities got rid of powerslash at the end of the expac :'(, they never really figured out how to balance the cost of our abilities so we feel impotent mana to zero after like 4 attacks, great. We lost our dots and debuffs, all our unique cool stuff was taken away and spread amongst all tanks, like reprisal. We were forced into being terrible WAR clones from then on. This is the Darkest of timelines. -
06-13-2023, 10:00 PMGoatOfWarThe OGCDs is what makes the job fun tbh. If i wanted slow and boring i'd play Warrior.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tint
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06-13-2023, 10:05 PMGoatOfWarHave you tried Warrior? I'd rather have people just play that if they want slow gameplay than make Drk a clone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazuzaki
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06-14-2023, 02:50 AMSazuzakiWarrior is fun. The lifesteal is the best part about it, but it's hardly what I want. Slow doesn't necessarily mean boring, and the job can still be fast paced while having more emphasis on GCD based attacks and mana management. I wouldn't mind still having a shit ton of OGCDs, but I'd rather have those OGCDs synergize and buff my next GCD rather than being a flat potency. Feels more weighty and a lot could be done with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoatOfWar
The only reason I play DRK rn (outside of the badass greatsword aesthetic) is because of TBN, which is our only skill that offers some sort of skill expression. The job without it is about as boring as it gets, no other mechanic it can really call its own. -
06-14-2023, 03:14 AMfulminating
Yeah, really sucks what they did to it going into shadowbringers. Back to back second place in the expansion warrior lookalike contest though.
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06-14-2023, 06:12 AMRenathrasIs it odd to anyone else that WAR has lifesteal and DRK kinda doesn't really (1-2-3 doesn't count, and Abyssal Drain is once per min)?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazuzaki
Honestly, nice history lesson. I never really messed around with DRK until dabbling in it some this expansion to level the Jobs I've not touched up for the various achievements, so interesting to see what it used to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malthir
Sounds...very different. -
06-14-2023, 12:29 PMGoatOfWarI'd stop playing the job if they did that. We already have warrior.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazuzaki
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06-14-2023, 03:10 PMReinhardt_Azureheimhttps://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...3308/image.pngQuote:
Originally Posted by Sazuzaki
Good times. This and Bloodweapon on Stormblood release:
- Recast time reduced from 60 to 40 seconds.
- The effect increasing attack speed by 10% has been changed to reduce weaponskill cast time and recast time, spell cast time and recast time, and auto-attack delay by 10%.
- The Blood Gauge will now increase by 3 each time a physical attack lands.
GCD-heavy DRK was the best. -
06-14-2023, 06:33 PMForsakenRoeHaving the choice of being crit-heavy and kinda slow, or full skillspeed chimp mode and both being pretty close in damage was also pretty great, I remember making a meme for my FC cos I discovered that swapping one meld from a G5 crit to a G5 skillspeed got me down another 0.01, making me 2.06 under Blood Weapon. Bearing in mind that Dark Arts was a 2s CD, it became almost unbearably fast, as using DA too late in the weave window would cause you to clip. I also borrowed some FC members to throw me Enhanced Arrow and the fairy speed thing, just to see what it'd do. IIRC it got me to like 1.78 on a dummy. Completely unplayable, 10/10Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim
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06-14-2023, 08:26 PMReinhardt_AzureheimExactly. While it technically does nearly the same thing as EoS/FoS, Dark Arts compiling more damage into GCDs rather than OGCDs felt more impactful - a critting DA Bloodspiller felt amazing.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
And yeah, some issues of it was like the 2s recast or the comparatively low MP cost vs MP generation, both of which could've been solved with reducing the recast to 1s (like EoS/FoS) and increasing the MP cost (and potency) by +50% to reduce frequency while keeping potency per MP the same and making GCDs feel even more weight behind them.
I miss the tempo of Bloodweapon the most though, in Stormblood you had 47.5% uptime alternating Delirium BW and standard BW windows. Big refresher from the GCD monotony. -
06-14-2023, 11:58 PMPayotz
This will probably not gonna happen in FF14 but I have ideas about turning DRK into a stagger/recover tank (Brew/Blood DK hybrid).
Haven't really fleshed out the idea, but it basically involves TBN absorbing damage, turning a portion of the damage back into mp, and then diverting the damage absorbed into the DRK as stagger damage over the course of 10 seconds. Bloodspiller would then be used to reduce or remove the stagger damage, adding the stagger damage removed to the base Bloodspiller damage.
If TBN breaks however, it stores that damage in you as a debuff that makes your TBNs squishier. Popping Delirium would turn the debuff stacks into stagger damage that only starts ticking after 10 seconds, giving your Bloodspiller the meatiest biggest hit.
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I just don't really the fact that Bloodspiller is spammable in current DRK. It kinda lowers the oomph of the skill compared to old Dark Arts Bloodspiller -
06-15-2023, 01:48 AMMekhana
I'm not personally a fan of SB DRK, especially off the perfection that was HW DRK.
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06-15-2023, 04:30 AMSazuzaki"Attune with the darkness within you"Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim
"Can only be used when succumbing to the Darkside"
God that's so fucking cool. Why don't they do flavor text like that anymore? -
06-15-2023, 07:13 AMForsakenRoeBack in SB while it was the black sheep of tanks, I thought the same. Call it 'Suffering' instead of Stagger, have Dark Passenger be the 'remove some of your Suffering' button, have CDs that interact with the Suffering amount, be that by making more of the damage be converted into Suffering, ways to counteract the Suffering buildup by healing some of it off, or something like having TBN pause the Suffering timer, at the cost of 'well now the DOT is going to hit harder per tick once it wears off'Quote:
Originally Posted by Payotz
And I feel the same about Carve, it used to be THE big hit, now it's lost it's oomph. If you look at older skill animations, eg Hard Slash, Syphon Strike, Carve, you can see that when your character swings the sword there's a kind of 'momentum' the blade holds, like you're not 'swinging the sword', moreso lugging it in the direction of the enemy and letting it's own weight do the job. Bloodspiller was the first skill where it makes the blade look kinda weightless, and it's just followed from there
I don't want to have all these Shadowbringers and Edges to spam, I want to be Guts and slam the enemy with a massive slab of metal. Guess I have to go WAR for that
Old DOT descriptions were better previously too. Biolysis and Combust 3 both say 'dealing unaspected damage over time' when you mouse over them on the enemy's debuff list, iirc. Miasma was 'Lungs are failing, causing damage over time' and Combust 1 was 'Proximity to a theoretical sun is causing damage over time'Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazuzaki
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06-15-2023, 07:31 AMSazuzakiHow'd we go from that to 'dealing unaspected damage over time'Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
Feels like the creative juices I hear about from the old days have gone away. I hope things get better after FF16 releases. -
06-15-2023, 09:46 AMPayotzYeah. This was always my impression back when I was still new and playing DRK in Stormblood. The job quests always implied that DRK always kept coming, regardless of how much they get hit. In fact in some cases, they hit back harder. So a stagger mechanic that gets converted to damage bonuses would be a lot more lore accurate mechanic than... Inner Release but edgy..Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
I can understand old Blood Weapon because it just buffs the GCD recast speed, but the whole Edge/Flood spam makes me feel like my two hander is just a knife. It doesn't make any sense.
I want them to experiment into making DRK the "squishy" stagger tank with the highest possible skill ceiling because of how stagger interacts with damage. Kinda like how Blood DK is really. -
06-15-2023, 03:54 PMReinhardt_AzureheimTotally valid, both were beasts on their own, however perfection is subjective for both of them. HW DRK was more about being the Parry proc tank (Reprisal + Low Blow) with generally low usage of Dark Arts due to MP drain, but also came with tools like Blood Price that scaled MP regeneration with damage taken. For better or worse, that was a cool mechanic that supported not overmitigating to get the most out of it. The original Blood Weapon though if I read the tooltip right did not come with GCD haste, only auto-attack speed which I find somewhat boring. However GCD Delirium combo as an alternative to Souleater, Scourge as a maintainable GCD DOT and Dark Dance were quite fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mekhana
What they lost in the parry engine (which I personally think was stupid as it cemented DRK into MT for the majority of fights for damage) they made up with the Blood System and TBN -> 50 Blood on break, which could be used on an ally. While not a DPS gain, it was a decently healthy alternative. Dark Arts frequency was really high given the extension of Blood Weapon, reworked Delirium and exchanging the MP drain for removing natural MP regen outside of DRK actions. And Blood Price got murdered, like goddamn it gave 1 Blood per hit and a few extra per server tick while only accessible under Grit. And every hit only gave 5% of a Dark Arts / TBN, you'd need to take 20 hits to get a single use out of it. Overall though, it was very fun to play the Speed Tank.
(I post this mainly as a source of information of others who may not know either of these) -
06-16-2023, 02:07 AMMekhanaI think that's because Koji Fox used to write the descriptions for almost everything now it's a bunch of 'randos'...Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazuzaki
I'd be fine with something like old Dark Arts coming back if it was like a 30 sec CD that turned the skill/ability into a new one with new vfx/sfx and more potency. Even if its something like Abyssal Drain+ or Carve and Spit+ Having to weave it all the time when you have too much MP to still hit like a wet noodle like the majority of SB can stay a memory.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim