The devs arent your friends. Stop pretending everyone is wrong and the devs are right

That's all.

Most people posting bad ideas aren't my friends either.
Sometimes you just gotta be realistic about things.

Do people really do that as often as people say they do? I see people being often accused of worshipping the devs, when in actuality it looks more like just a difference of opinion.

I like the devs more than I like most of you, so there's that..

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

I like the devs more than I like most of you, so there's that..

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Dont worry, even I like the devs more than you, that's how bad it is.

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Originally Posted by Hurlstone

Do people really do that as often as people say they do? I see people being often accused of worshipping the devs, when in actuality it looks more like just a difference of opinion.

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That's how I always see it too
Minus the same like 3 people who really seem to be all over yoshi's d at all times.

The complainers aren't your friends. Stop pretending they're right and the devs are wrong.

Or just judge each point based on its merits, but that would require actually thinking for yourself.

The devs are neutral. They aren't your friend or your enemy. They are there to do a job. Some things stick while others do not. They are trying to make things stick cause that is what makes money...and keeps them with a job.

You may or may not likenl those things that do stick. It's almost like we are individuals with different tastes. One may love something and others hate it with a passion hotter than a thousand suns.

just because my opinion is different doesnt mean iam simping for the devs or that iam a shill, but you do you

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Originally Posted by Stormpeaks

Dont worry, even I like the devs more than you, that's how bad it is.

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I thought we had something Stormy

https://media.tenor.com/qittDcd1ELgAAAAM/ouch-hurt.gif

There is a difference between them being friends and just thinking they are fellow human beings that should be treated with respect. You can say something critical without being rude about it.

And then there is whether the criticism is even constructive, which means can a person reasonably take what is said and use it to improve anything - does it acknowledge the challenges and difficulties involved in addressing it, does it provide a reasonable and realistic suggestion on how to achieve it and overcome any challenges involved? Does it take into account the fact that the game is catering to multiple types of people interested in different things, rather than just catering to people only interested in one thing ie. raiding.

If the constructive arguments are not provided then they are brought up in the debate later on. Someone has to play the role of seeing it from a developer's point of view and someone has to play the role of seeing it from a player's point of view to see where the debate ends up. Otherwise it is too one-sided and doesn't consider the counterarguments a developer might have, so why wouldn't they just dismiss it then.

All of you are my enemies, and my friends.

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...75/612/2f0.jpg

The devs are obviously going to use whatever data they have to make decisions that are in their favor. It doesn't mean they're inhumane, it just means they're greedy and self-interested, like most people. It shouldn't surprise anyone really.

We shouldn't generalize or point fingers though. That doesn't exactly help either.

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Originally Posted by Minarisweet

The devs arent your friends. Stop pretending everyone is wrong and the devs are right
That's all.

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https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qi...0a5a3d4c2ced4f

Anybody who actually thinks this way or projects that way of thinking onto others--is a sith. There is no such thing as 100% right or wrong. It's not devs vs. real players. It's not simps vs. educated self-appointed critics. This isn't one of the most successful mmo's of all time by accident, the devs have done their part reasonably well and for that I choose to think of them as friends.

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Originally Posted by Minarisweet

That's all.

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They at least don't have their players unlike certain other mmos.

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Originally Posted by UltraPrimarch

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qi...0a5a3d4c2ced4f

Anybody who actually thinks this way or projects that way of thinking onto others--is a sith. There is no such thing as 100% right or wrong. It's not devs vs. real players. It's not simps vs. educated self-appointed critics. This isn't one of the most successful mmo's of all time by accident, the devs have done their part reasonably well and for that I choose to think of them as friends.

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We need more Grey Jewish.

Because they are cool.

GREY JEDIS!

THANKS AUTO CORRECT AND NO EDITING ON MOBILE!

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Originally Posted by Renalt

We need more Grey Jewish.

Because they are cool.

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https://media.tenor.com/3cb7h65Xdd4AAAAC/hehe-funny.gif

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Originally Posted by Renalt

GREY JEDIS!

THANKS AUTO CORRECT AND NO EDITING ON MOBILE!

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Classic. And instead of editing you make a follow-up post. lmfao

The devs seem overconfident to me. They haven't learned from 1.0 at all, especially with their doubling down on dumb changes to healers that have been ongoing since Stormblood, or recent PvP adjustments that are baffling, and uncalled for. Telling people to "Go play Zelda" and telling healers to "Go and play Ultimates" if they want their job to be engaging is insulting to say the least.

It'd help if the forums weren't constantly full of bitter people complaining or arguing while providing no solutions to their problems though. In the rare event they ever visited the English forums, they'd just ignore anything being posted here. The developers do not need to be white knighted for, but that doesn't mean that we can be d*** heads to em.

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Originally Posted by UltraPrimarch

Classic. And instead of editing you make a follow-up post. lmfao

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I know that pain, on phone it's all one fat finger away from saying something way off..,
luckily I know I can set to desktop mode temporarily so I can edit on mobile.

But then I have go adjust screensize, and be wary of my walls of text pushing the comment/chat box away.

Edit: Away*
Unintentional Example

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/ea...gative_Man.png

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Originally Posted by Minarisweet

The devs arent your friends. Stop pretending everyone is wrong and the devs are right
That's all.

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If you say we're pretending everyone is wrong, then you're implying that everyone is actually right. How can everyone be right when there are so many conflicting opinions being posted?

I agree the devs aren't my friends. To my knowledge, I don't personally know any of them let alone well enough to consider them a friend. Use of the game service is a consumer transaction. Either they provide a service I enjoy, in which case I give them money to access it, or they don't and my money goes elsewhere.

There will be times I agree with what the developers have done. There will be times I disagree with what they have done. There will be times I would prefer something different but understand why they choose what they did. Things are not all black or all white.

If you think the devs are wrong, why are you here contributing to their salaries?

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Originally Posted by ryouma17

just because my opinion is different doesnt mean iam simping for the devs or that iam a shill, but you do you

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This post deserves more Upvotes then it got.
Its pretty stupid and childish to think any Opinion that disagrees with someone is some sort of defense force for the game or the devs.

I know this might be difficult to grasp,

But it is hardly about right and wrong in many cases, and simply just a disagreement in personal preferences. This hardly constitutes as seeing the developers as friends, and people on the forums as enemies. What kind of logic is this?

Let me put it this way - If someone says they want to see more iterations of Criterion Dungeon and Variant Dungeon in 7.0, and then another player disagrees - Then who is to say who is right?

Like... LOL

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Originally Posted by Canadane

Most people posting bad ideas aren't my friends either.
Sometimes you just gotta be realistic about things.

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Good thing I'm not most people, my friend.

My mommy told me anyone could be my friend if I was nice to them!!! So nya! =P

Nor are the forum posters either.

What a pointless take.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

This post deserves more Upvotes then it got.
Its pretty stupid and childish to think any Opinion that disagrees with someone is some sort of defense force for the game or the devs.

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Good point. Click HERE to "upvote."

I went back and "Upvoted" it. Here we call them likes and people think of them as upvotes. Ryo killed it and pretty much ended this discussion.

August 12 2036 the Devs aren't your friend. August 12 2036 the Devs aren't your friend. August 12 2036 the Devs aren't your friend.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

[...]You can say something critical without being rude about it.

And then there is whether the criticism is even constructive, which means can a person reasonably take what is said and use it to improve anything

If the constructive arguments are not provided then they are brought up in the debate later on

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When private housing got released, I criticized how faulty it was and how bad it was but in a polite way without attacking anyone, simply saying that it wasn't what was promised.
The response: "Don't buy it then"

Expressed my opinion regarding the story which differs from the norm, without attacking anyone and simply stating my opinion in a non-rude way, and even saying why I thought could've been different.
The response: "You're wrong" and that I have no idea how jrpgs stories work. Despite having over a hundred jrpgs under my belt

Once I kindly asked a tank to press one aoe button because me, the healer, was dying from the lack of aggro and we were wiping at a level 30+ dungeon
The response: "Chill he's new"

Before the unskippable cutscenes, I reminded the tank of the group that there was a few people behind watching the cutscene, and that we could have trouble later on (this was ARR)
The response: "shut up" and got kicked.

Told a dps to let me aggro first or else he'd overaggro and die. Which he did because tanks aggro wasn't like today.
The response: "Do your job" and got kicked.
Cherry on top: despite being an abuse of power, I was told that "I might be wrong" on the report. Sure, of course.

Bottom line, that's not how it works in practice.

On paper yes, you can be critical without being rude. However ANY sort of negative criticism in this game is like a personal attack, therefore no matter how well articulated or how well developed your argument is, as long as your criticism is negative then it's a problem. This applies on every single game, not just here, as proven by my different opinions and criticism of other games which are beloved by many.

Only exception is when everyone collectively dislike someone - like criterion or how relics work in this expansion (which I ironically like!). Otherwise no, your opinion is negative? Then you're the problem. Go back to wow and shut up.

As a matter of fact, I stopped talking or criticizing the game altogether for this very reason: if the game gets worse, I know sure it's not my fault since everything I said was wrong.

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Originally Posted by Archeron

The devs seem overconfident to me. They haven't learned from 1.0 at all, especially with their doubling down on dumb changes to healers that have been ongoing since Stormblood, or recent PvP adjustments that are baffling, and uncalled for. Telling people to "Go play Zelda" and telling healers to "Go and play Ultimates" if they want their job to be engaging is insulting to say the least.

It'd help if the forums weren't constantly full of bitter people complaining or arguing while providing no solutions to their problems though. In the rare event they ever visited the English forums, they'd just ignore anything being posted here. The developers do not need to be white knighted for, but that doesn't mean that we can be d*** heads to em.

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I think they did learn from 1.0 but in the hubris of their success they've gotten arrogant thinking they can do no wrong.

The Wheel of Time turns and the cycle repeats.

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Originally Posted by Voltyblast

On paper yes, you can be critical without being rude. However ANY sort of negative criticism in this game is like a personal attack, therefore no matter how well articulated or how well developed your argument is, as long as your criticism is negative then it's a problem. This applies on every single game, not just here, as proven by my different opinions and criticism of other games which are beloved by many.

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Far too many players dont even know everything well enough. They think they know how something works, but they only see a 1 sided thing.

For example with the healers: they see they need to do more damage, as their damage isnt competing, and healing often just isnt needed. the real issue being the engine not being able to apply a more sustained damage output and demanding more healing that way. Its very staggered bursts is a way they worked around it, and while it works for 90% of the players, it doesnt work for the 10%. But as long as the 90% is happy, that is a good sign.

They also think that someone who doesnt play a certain job/role/gamemode cannot tell anything about those jobs. Yet in plenty of cases you can because while you might not play a certain job in this game, you can in an other one, and have a reference point from that. These reference points can on that be a very good argument. Someone that never played healer can on that even say that the healer job has an issue when he noticed healing is rarely needed at all.

Devs only try to do 1 thing: try to keep the game fun and popular, and whatever they do, its all for that purpose. Whatever they do (or refuse to), it can be good, or it can be bad, but it is often impossible to tell the actual result of a certain change, while being very risky to change it.

Arguments often however become personal as its more about 'proving you are better' than actualy about balance. Most of the balance aspects dont care about the skill of a player, they care about a skillcurve. A realy bad player therefor can have equaly valid arguments towards a pro.

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

They know us better than we do.

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SE dev 1: You think the complainers will ever stop subbing?

SE dev 2: lol, of course not.

SE dev 1: nice, let's focus on other things then.

I feel that people who are ultimately unhappy should really stop giving the company any money. Otherwise youre giving them the wrong message that youre ok with whatever they do since youll still pay them.

But for us who criticize and complain while still generally enjoy the game without acting like total brats, its our job to provide the feedback without diminishing it with petty insults to the team, accusations without having any base knowledge and in general flood the forums with troll threads.

I wish whoever was in charge of moderating here did a better job at communicating, although Im sure the lack of community interaction was a call made by a higher up and its something they need to change to at least calm down the chaos in here.

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Originally Posted by UkcsAlias

Far too many players dont even know everything well enough. They think they know how something works, but they only see a 1 sided thing.

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That is unfortunately true. This is not my actual character, but my other character has all 90 on every job (except BLU, because it's a joke and I don't take it seriously), and I am able to speak from both sides - and dps side as well, as I have a couple of well geared dps too. But no matter what I say, my opinion doesn't matter because "it's not the right opinion". Many times before I said my piece only to be replied with negativity despite me being constructive. I sincerely stopped caring at this point, and letting people do what they want. Even recently I got attacked because my opinion on some story bits was apparently "wrong", despite the point being "doesn't matter, I still don't like it". It was clear that they treated it as a personal attack, but I wasn't really doing that: I just had a different opinion, a negative opinion, but apparently you can't have that anywhere nowadays. Everything must be good or you're a troll or a hater.

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Originally Posted by Minarisweet

That's all.

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Well you do not have to be the Developers friends, but it is absolutely not the players way to dictate how they should make their game, that they did develop and build, it is the other way around that thing work, either you like their work and play the game or you do not and find another game to play.

It can't be put more clear and as with MMO's you can't create stuff everyone would like to play... be it Criterian Dungeons, Savage, Deep Dungeons, Bozja and Eureka alike content... some like it, others do not, and that is just how it is.

Players are in no position to decide with polls or whatever should be the next big thing, however leave a suggestion instead, maybe it is a good one, maybe it will be used at some point, maybe parts of it would be used.

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Originally Posted by Themarvin

Well you do not have to be the Developers friends, but it is absolutely not the players way to dictate how they should make their game, that they did develop and build, it is the other way around that thing work, either you like their work and play the game or you do not and find another game to play.

It can't be put more clear and as with MMO's you can't create stuff everyone would like to play... be it Criterian Dungeons, Savage, Deep Dungeons, Bozja and Eureka alike content... some like it, others do not, and that is just how it is.

Players are in no position to decide with polls or whatever should be the next big thing, however leave a suggestion instead, maybe it is a good one, maybe it will be used at some point, maybe parts of it would be used.

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this is probably the most accurate "take" I have read recently and cannot like this enough.

no, the devs arent my friends and SE IS a big company, its their money and they can do with it, and direct it as they wish. I play THEIR game, not mine. people always blather on about the devs being "out of touch" but its not them that are out of touch, we are. If you dislike a line of clothing, you stop buying it, if you think changes in your favourite food are bad, you stop buying it. If you dislike changes in a game, you come to the forums to complain about it endlessly and say you pay for the game so it should be to your liking. but really, how is that any different than a change in what sauce they put on your nachos? it isnt.... you dont like the taste, stop buying the sauce, plain and simple.

I am not friends with the devs, but they do something most of us do not, they make this game what it is, which many do actually enjoy mostly, including myself. they owe me nothing since I support their efforts by my own choice... and in turn, they at least should get respect for doing something many of us cannot... coding, design etc....

friends.. heck, I dont even like them and dont trust big or small gaming companies any more. as gamers we can make suggestions, and if they like them, who knows.. if they dont, does it really matter? gamers should never have that much input into systems in games they play, its a recipe for disaster. QoL sure, systems... no...

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Originally Posted by Voltyblast

When private housing got released, I criticized how faulty it was and how bad it was but in a polite way without attacking anyone
The response: "Don't buy it then"

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Just like a lot of people's criticism isn't constructive, sometimes the responses people have to it aren't either, unfortunately.

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Expressed my opinion regarding the story which differs from the norm, without attacking anyone and simply stating my opinion in a non-rude way, and even saying why I thought could've been different.
The response: "You're wrong"

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That is much too simple of a response and should find an answer with more depth about why the story was alright, rather than strictly saying "wrong". Just not useful to the debate otherwise.

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Once I kindly asked a tank to press one aoe button because me, the healer, was dying from the lack of aggro and we were wiping at a level 30+ dungeon
The response: "Chill he's new"

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That is a difficult situation, because people in dungeons are strangers and don't know if you are a nice person or not, so first impressions make a big impact here and how you word it can make a big difference. Obviously, you need them to do the aoe or alternatively heal through it. This and the rest of the examples aren't relevant to discussing feedback for developers though.

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Before the unskippable cutscenes, I reminded the tank of the group that there was a few people behind watching the cutscene, and that we could have trouble later on
The response: "shut up" and got kicked.

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I don't think most parties would have done that, but people were more rude in ARR and HW because the game hadn't necessarily attracted the casual players it now has and the rules were not as vague.

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Told a dps to let me aggro first or else he'd overaggro and die. Which he did because tanks aggro wasn't like today.
The response: "Do your job" and got kicked.

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Everything is about perception. Unfortunately, in ARR the game had a lot of intricate things that caused people to attack you for doing it wrong, when you weren't. For example, I was told to face my shield at the enemies to block them, despite that one of them was at NW and one of them at NE and they wouldn't move, then they left the dungeon before I could answer. It was impossible to block them all. SE since made you block from all directions.

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On paper yes, you can be critical without being rude. However ANY sort of negative criticism in this game is like a personal attack

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It's really about establishing your intentions first because first impressions affect perception.

Just like feedback can lack any sort of depth, so can the responses to that feedback ie. saying the feedback is "wrong" or "bad" without any sort of proper articulate argument as to why or how.

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

They know us better than we do.!

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I can only assume you say this as a joke given the tone of the rest of your post, but this is unironically the reality of it, whether you like the implications of it or not.

Statistics are the single most powerful tool game developers have at their disposal - they paint an infinitely more accurate picture than player feedback ever could. Every large enough game developer has literal terrabytes worth of player data, trends, content participation, etc to base all their decisions on. They literally know the playerbase of their game better than the playerbase ever could.

During my time working at Ubisoft, the team I worked with completely stopped looking at player feedback because it was useless at best and at worst contradictory to what the actual majority were interested in - the statistics data was the only source of feedback ever needed to see success / failures of certain content designs and how we should model future DLC / content designs on to produce continuously successful results. We knew what the players wanted better than they did, and every piece of content we released following the successful data trends mirrored the same success. More content that mirrored the unsuccessful data trends continued to provide less results comparatively.

The devs don't need to be our friends, they don't need to care about player feedback on somewhere as tiny as these forums - Their huge amounts of player data paint the exact picture of how to make FF14 successful - something that both Square Enix's yearly financial reports & bancho's censuses have been showing they've been extremely nailing in their game direction. A direction of accessibility & dumbing down game design that every single AAA studio in the industry has realized encompasses a year over year increasing majority of casual gamers and what they're looking for.

In this day and age, human feedback is effectively irrelevant - data collection is so powerful now that companies know what their audience wants better than they do.