Magical change of appearance in the lore

Hi all!

So.. how to start.. I'm trying to get into deeper touch with all the lore from the FF14 universe and while I know all the more basic stuff and history of the game, I still don't have a clue about magics.

I managed to find out that Fantasia isn't really canon and it shouldn't be viewed as such. But is there any other way to change appearances through magic schools? Like.. illusions or transformation? This could range from changing hair colors temporarily, the height of a person or even the whole body, as in temporary gender or race transformation.

If this was already answered in other topics, I want to apologize. D:

Glamors exist enough that you can swing those no problem.

Also, depending on why you care, Fantasias being 'not really canon' is basically just not a thing. The roleplaying community generally just lets it exist, although you'll find disagreements in how rare they are or how they work. And fanfics play even looser with the lore than roleplayers, so they won't care either.

My favorite headcannon is that Fantasia is some sort of rare miracle potion on the blackmarket. People are drawn to tales of the miracle water and get scammed by the vast majority of merchants, a lot of people just think of it as bogus then, but it exists.

Fantasia is a meta-item that exists strictly to provide a cash shop service. Using one doesn't do anything in-universe because using one rewrites reality so that you were always whatever you fantasiaed into and nobody remembers otherwise. "Did you take that potion you bought from that traveling merchant the other day? It doesn't seem to have done anything. What a waste of gil."

Using Fantasia rewrites your entire history. If you were a Lalafell in 2.0, and changed into an Aura in 6.0, the NPCs will have always known you as an Aura since 2.0.

To me, fantasia does not exist. Nor anything from the cash shop.

I have seen MMOs where they try to incorporate pure game mechanics into the lore, but XIV is not one of them in regards to the cash shop. Saying Fantasia exists is like saying MSQ skip also exists in-game :)

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Originally Posted by Kranel_San

To me, fantasia does not exist. Nor anything from the cash shop.

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To be fair, I think a fantasia is still rewarded to you during ARR MSQ, so it's not strictly a cash shop thing in that sense. But the canonicalness of quest rewards is its own can of worms lol.

Anyway, we could argue that retainer fantasias might be as good an indicator as any of the concept's status in the lore, since -- while its description makes plain its literal utility as an appearance-editor -- when you actually speak to a retainer vocate to use it, the vocate treats the interaction as if you're letting go of your current retainer and hiring a new one; not literally enabling an alchemical cosmetic procedure that you may or may not be forcing upon them. BUT that's probably presented that way as much to side-step the problematic implications of molding the appearance of your employee as it is to hand-wave the silliness of fantasias in general.

Wait, I though fantasies were Canon, just heavily regulated and hard to get access too. Almost everything in the game (including party finder) is Canon and has an in universe explanation.

Plus the Korean lore Q&A confirmed that the limitations eye r I ngs au ra have are created via magical manipulation of appearance as a cultural thing (which is why they have a slider). So one must assume some level of transformative magic right down to gender transitioning is available.

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Originally Posted by shadowclasper

Wait, I though fantasies were Canon, just heavily regulated and hard to get access too. Almost everything in the game (including party finder) is Canon and has an in universe explanation.

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According to Koji Fox:

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Fantasia works in a unique way. It can’t simply turn you into whoever you want, or people could get away with anything. Crime would be out of control. Even on Earth, people have the opportunity to change who they are – cut their hair, get a facelift, find a new career or a different spouse – but we often aren’t willing to make those drastic life changes. Fantasia gives you the courage to make the changes you’ve always wanted to make. Maybe you are Lalafell trapped in a Roegadyn’s body, it’s time to break out! And all you needed was that courage in a phial!

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https://gamerescape.com/2014/10/25/f...st-london-qas/

According to what seemed to be an unofficial meetup with someone from the localization team:

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While the Fantasia potion has some in-world flavor text, it’s mainly meant to be seen as a meta object. For example, you wouldn’t see it’s use, or reference to its use in storylines since in effect it doesn’t actually exist

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https://nunhofthat.tumblr.com/post/1...ck-im-in-japan

Koji’s answer seems a bit tongue-in-cheek so I’m more inclined to go in line with the 2nd one.

Not everything in the game is canon. Hildebrand for example is “as canon as you want it to be” since much of it breaks character and defies the laws of physics and logic.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Not everything in the game is canon. Hildebrand for example is “as canon as you want it to be” since much of it breaks character and defies the laws of physics and logic.

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But in that case, your answer for 'how canon you want it to be' can't be 'not', because there's a bunch of things that are first divulged in Hildibrand but then become important later, like Godbert Manderville and the truth about Sil'dih.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

According to Koji Fox:

https://gamerescape.com/2014/10/25/f...st-london-qas/

According to what seemed to be an unofficial meetup with someone from the localization team:

https://nunhofthat.tumblr.com/post/1...ck-im-in-japan

Koji’s answer seems a bit tongue-in-cheek so I’m more inclined to go in line with the 2nd one.

Not everything in the game is canon. Hildebrand for example is “as canon as you want it to be” since much of it breaks character and defies the laws of physics and logic.

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Given his dad is just as wacky but actually involved in ul'dahn politics that's blatantly false, and multiple characters in it appear in more serious story lines but remember you from hilde quests

Secondly, the localization team has significantly less power or clout about the narrative than Koji, however flippant (especially at something unofficial). Combine that with the fact the game has literally gone out of it's way to give an in universe explanation for quite literally every single game mechanic, including party finder as of 5.4-5.5, and I don't think anyone can argue in good faith that fantasias don't exist in universe.

At best it can be seen as an argument that ti undergo the massive restructuring if aether necessary to change species requires some significant changing in one's mentality.

Personally I just rp my Viera as always having been one, but I personally want eorzea to be a place that just goes 'you get the body you want if you're brave enough to make the changes'

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Not everything in the game is canon. Hildebrand for example is “as canon as you want it to be” since much of it breaks character and defies the laws of physics and logic.

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I'm still of the mindset that all of the Hildibrand questline is being told by Nashu, which is why everything is so ridiculous. She IS the one who breaks the 4th wall when it comes to what to expect next from the adventures. She's eccentric enough to where certain things make no sense, but DO make sense if you look at them from a different perspective.

Julyan being a horrible cook yet can make something dispelling zombie powder makes perfect sense when you remember that there are 2 crafting jobs that cook, Culinarian AND Alchemist. Julyan isn't a CUL, she's an ALC.
Hildibrand rising from the grave yet being found in the desert with "zombies" doesn't make sense. However, Hildibrand being presumed dead yet being found alive after Dalamud by a band of brigands, makes perfect sense.

You get the point, I feel Nashu is vastly exaggerating what happened, and we're seeing all of it from what SHE thinks happened.

Don't we run into the zombies at least once outside Hildebrand quests? And I know zombies are a real mob because that's what screwed over sil'dih. That said, I don't think the core of your theory is entirely unsound. Plus when we run into the ishgaddian inspector he is at first terrified that the ridiculousness of Hildy will be following us so at least some level of him doing this crazy shit happens.

Also just gonna point out, quite a bit of what Hildebrand and other characters in there do is copied elsewhere in a less silky format

Dragoon quests
Warrior quests
Ninja quests

All of them have massive insane physics defying feats involved cause aether is a hell of a drug!

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Originally Posted by shadowclasper

Personally I just rp my Viera as always having been one, but I personally want eorzea to be a place that just goes 'you get the body you want if you're brave enough to make the changes'

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The canon police aren't going to come out if you RP or write something that stretches the lore, but I think whether fantasia are canon is going to be a controversial subject that not everyone agrees with at the same level. The closest thing we have to an answer from the devs is "maybe, but it won't work that way" and I don't think it's ever going to come up in the story anyway, otherwise it already would have.

I also think it's not a great argument to point to party finder and then say "see, everything is canon!" because there's still a whole lot of stuff that has shades of being subjectively canon, like how we suddenly forget some of our abilities every expansion or when the devs make an "adjustment". Or every mount that didn't have flying before suddenly can fly through the power of friendship, or rocket thrusters in adamantoise's case. Or the convoluted explanations for other FF crossover event things showing up with no in-world context like "portals from another world" or "tales from the far east", and not even going to get into Monster Hunter, Yo-Kai Watch, Dragon Quest, or especially NieR. And then there's how the holiday event NPCs remember us every year but time stays the same and no one ages (that's a whole other can of worms, please no one start this again).

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

But in that case, your answer for 'how canon you want it to be' can't be 'not', because there's a bunch of things that are first divulged in Hildibrand but then become important later, like Godbert Manderville and the truth about Sil'dih.

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Originally Posted by shadowclasper

Given his dad is just as wacky but actually involved in ul'dahn politics that's blatantly false, and multiple characters in it appear in more serious story lines but remember you from hilde quests

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

I'm still of the mindset that all of the Hildibrand questline is being told by Nashu, which is why everything is so ridiculous. She IS the one who breaks the 4th wall when it comes to what to expect next from the adventures. She's eccentric enough to where certain things make no sense, but DO make sense if you look at them from a different perspective.

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I guess it's not the lore forums unless people go on a tangent based on a side comment someone made.

I'm pretty sure there was a writer who was asked if Hildibrand was canon and they're response was something along the lines of "what does your heart tell you?" but I can't find that interview.

Personally I'm more along Ryu's interpretation where the events happened, but are an "artistic retelling" much like how Savage isn't canon but is much more dramatic version of it.

There's some things that are brought into the rest of the game, and gentleman zombies are one thing but then you also have stuff like Hildibrand being launched at Dalamud and surviving his initial contact with it as well as the effects of the Calamity when it exploded with him on it. Or being able to summon Mandervilles with the power of dance. Or Yojimbo being "skinny Gilgamesh" and somehow becomes fat again when he decides to reveal himself.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Or Yojimbo being "skinny Gilgamesh" and somehow becomes fat again when he decides to reveal himself.

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Okay, so while I can agree with everything else you've said. This one actually does have an entirely canon explanation.

Glamours.

Glamours are straight up stated to be full transformations of appearance. It's why you can wear say, the chocobo head or literally any big and expansive armor set and then have it glamoured to 'the emperor's new X' or something else, and vice versa.

Also, just remembering something on this thread's subject, a recent reveal from Secret Best Part Of 6.4: Plastic surgery exists in-game, and is apparently very accurate, given the only thing that tipped people off was eye color!

That's not exactly gonna work for changing race, but it's still further than you probably expect from the setting.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

I'm still of the mindset that all of the Hildibrand questline is being told by Nashu, which is why everything is so ridiculous. She IS the one who breaks the 4th wall when it comes to what to expect next from the adventures. She's eccentric enough to where certain things make no sense, but DO make sense if you look at them from a different perspective.

Julyan being a horrible cook yet can make something dispelling zombie powder makes perfect sense when you remember that there are 2 crafting jobs that cook, Culinarian AND Alchemist. Julyan isn't a CUL, she's an ALC.
Hildibrand rising from the grave yet being found in the desert with "zombies" doesn't make sense. However, Hildibrand being presumed dead yet being found alive after Dalamud by a band of brigands, makes perfect sense.

You get the point, I feel Nashu is vastly exaggerating what happened, and we're seeing all of it from what SHE thinks happened.

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That's how I feel about it too. That the events of the Hildibrand story actually happened, but we're seeing an exaggerated, stylized version of it (similar to Wandering Minstrel EXs.)

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Originally Posted by shadowclasper

Okay, so while I can agree with everything else you've said. This one actually does have an entirely canon explanation.

Glamours.

Glamours are straight up stated to be full transformations of appearance. It's why you can wear say, the chocobo head or literally any big and expansive armor set and then have it glamoured to 'the emperor's new X' or something else, and vice versa.

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Heck glamor prisms were used to hide Rhalgr's Reach for so long and was used into tricking Fordola and the troops stationed at where the Anata tribal quests are at. As the Ala Mhigan flag that we "unfurl" is just a glamor. Also isn't there a comment about part of the Blitzen mount we got from the most recent Starlight Celebration being a glamor as well?

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Also, just remembering something on this thread's subject, a recent reveal from Secret Best Part Of 6.4: Plastic surgery exists in-game, and is apparently very accurate, given the only thing that tipped people off was eye color!

That's not exactly gonna work for changing race, but it's still further than you probably expect from the setting.

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Oh heck! you're not wrong my man.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

Heck glamor prisms were used to hide Rhalgr's Reach for so long and was used into tricking Fordola and the troops stationed at where the Anata tribal quests are at. As the Ala Mhigan flag that we "unfurl" is just a glamor. Also isn't there a comment about part of the Blitzen mount we got from the most recent Starlight Celebration being a glamor as well?

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yep, glamours cover a plethora of sins, but the fantasia is implied to be significantly different. If I honestly had to guess it's probably something that gives you the courage to actually go through massive changes and warp yourself through the aethyrite systems, since the way it functions is entirely based on one's sense of both possessions and self identity. You get condensed down into aether with all your objects, thrown to another aetheryte, and then recondense. Your possessions come with you because you think they should and consider them effectively, part of you to some extent. You come out the shape you're supposed too because you think you should be that shape.

I imagine that Fantasia is basically working on those same principles. "Here take this and it'll give you the courage to actually envision your true self hard enough that when you pop out of the aethyrite the fear won't keep you from expressing it that way". That effectively avoids almost all criminal actions involving it because, hey, you gotta -really- fucking- believe in it as yourself, it's not enough to just want to be that shape.

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Originally Posted by shadowclasper

Oh heck! you're not wrong my man.

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Woman, but I admit with the gatherer headpiece on the character preview it's hard to tell!

But yeah, I thought that was a really good thing to bring up, because the game's general level of civilization and tech (wavering somewhere between 'roughly colonial' to 'World War 1 with anime stylization' depending on where and when you look) doesn't really suggest 'very high-quality plastic surgery' is on the table.

The existence of Fantasia is not acknowledged by dialogue, so it has no continuity with any other lore.

Outside of Fantasia, there are some cases of permanent changes to a being's physiology, but none of them appears to be fully controllable.

One tempered by a primal would take on features of that primal's element, becoming monstrous. Ishgardians who partake a dragon's blood may find themselves transformed into a dragon, usually one of three types. The Mad King Theodoric transformed his rivals into monsters. And the pixies also like to transform those who wander into Il Mheg—though other than leafmen, the results aren't fully predictable.

There are also targeted transformations used as temporary enfeeblements: adventurers may find themselves transformed into a toad, an imp, or an old crone, though usually they turn back before long—assuming they survive.

Finally when it comes to glamour, we as players use it to make one item appear to be another of a similar size and shape. But other users of glamour magick are not always beholden to such limitations.

The false Inquisitor was able to glamour himself into a dragon much larger than he is. And the sylphs are adept users of glamour, able to pass themselves as one of the five races, and even mimicking the Warrior of Light in the tribal quests. NPCs in the ninja quests also wield ninjutsu that allow them to pass as someone else; one antagonist scales himself up to face you.

Such uses of glamour do not seem to be common.

Nanamo doesn't use glamour to become her alter-ego, I wonder why?

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

But in that case, your answer for 'how canon you want it to be' can't be 'not', because there's a bunch of things that are first divulged in Hildibrand but then become important later, like Godbert Manderville and the truth about Sil'dih.

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Hildibrand is a story set in the canon world of FFXIV, so when it references other parts of the world, it is accurate to them.

That does not mean that Hildibrand is true and canon from the outside looking in.

Godbert and Sil'dih exist whether you have done the Hildibrand quests or not, or even if they were hypothetically wiped from the game entirely.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Hildibrand is a story set in the canon world of FFXIV, so when it references other parts of the world, it is accurate to them.

That does not mean that Hildibrand is true and canon from the outside looking in.

Godbert and Sil'dih exist whether you have done the Hildibrand quests or not, or even if they were hypothetically wiped from the game entirely.

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This is true, but Hildibrand's also the place where a lot of stuff like that first gets expanded on. Big dumb slapstick it might be, but Hildibrand's tendency to 'look low' on the setting and do much smaller stories than we often see means that it shines a light on parts of the setting that just don't get talked about otherwise, because there's pretty much nothing to fight (or craft) about it.

That's basically what I'm trying to say: What Hildibrand says about the world is often something that Hildibrand's getting the first chance to expand on, so you can't just throw the whole thing in the bin of 'non-canon'.