Delete WHM Miracle of Nature skilll asap.

How this absurd skill STILL in the game after 1 year with only 25 seconds of CD?

>Jump in
>Use WAR LB
>Nope get imp'd X2 and bye
>can't dive anymore or even engage a small group of people because every 25 seconds I'll get removed from the game.

Why I can't use purify ?
Why there isn't a way to deal with this? is a NORMAL, STANDARD SKILL with 25 SECONDS OF CD unlike Reaper/Dancer LB status.

Please remove Miracle of Nature, SE.

Agreed, it isn't a LB skill, however it's a single target unlike reaper's skill. and the WHM has to be practically in melee range.

If it was removed- it should be replaced by an equivalent skill - Sage for example has mummification, WHM should have its own CC.

WHM has Purgation which is also CC. Not saying MoM should go by necessity though, either reworked to be cleansable, or remove with a rebalance elsewhere in the kit.

They could;

1. Allow miracle to be cleansed but change the limit break to be a beam miracle instead of a beam stun, and swap miracle 25 second with a regular single target stun every 25 seconds. This would make it so that miracle is a limit break ability.

2. Give miracle of nature a cast time, duh

Any of these changes would likely upset a lot of folks who have been carried by the job for all this time but still be completely manageable for any minimum skilled white mage.

+1 WHM in pvp, specifically CC is busted

No, it's been nerfed enough and it's fine and good that jobs have powerful non-LB abilities you have to play around. It rewards players who are capable of adapting to the matchup.

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Originally Posted by AtomicBomb

No, it's been nerfed enough and it's fine and good that jobs have powerful non-LB abilities you have to play around. It rewards players who are capable of adapting to the matchup.

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No it's literally a second LB on a 25sec cooldown. It needs to be deleted.

It's a self defense ability. You would need to replace it with a self defense ability of equal value.

That said, I wouldn't mind a high damage skill considering that healers have pretty garbage damage.

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Originally Posted by AnnRam

Why I can't use purify ?
Why there isn't a way to deal with this? is a NORMAL, STANDARD SKILL with 25 SECONDS OF CD unlike Reaper/Dancer LB status.

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The tradeoff for Miracle being strong is range limitation for its single target usage & lack of damage. Unlike CC that binds/stuns/freezes (with the latter two preventing any action at all), You get to move freely during imp. Likewise, Miracle can be guarded against, like all non-LB CC. The most comparable case would then be to look at CC that doesn't stop movement but can still be purified, like Silence.

For RDM's Silence, RDM's Resolution is an AOE Silence in 25y with 8000 potency to all targets, which means it has more range, hits more targets, and does large amounts of damage as an instant cast skill every 20 seconds.
Unlike BRD's silence (which is also nerfed pretty badly this time from 25y to 15y every 20 seconds), Miracle actually has a worse range (10y) and doesn't have a bonus benefit of having extra damage proc in its skillset (BRD's Silent Nocturne proc Pitch Perfect, which gives both an instant cast + feeds into Empyrean Arrow). This means WHM has to be even closer than mid-range and enter melee range as a caster.

Compared to these skills, the only benefit WHM's Miracle would then give is that it's non-cleansable via purify.

For Miracle to not be a unique effect debuff and just turn into a silence, it would have to give a lot more advantages comparable to other jobs, ex: much higher increased damage, be an aoe CC, or debuff enemies. All while having a lowered cd (25 sec -> 20 sec at minimum).

Considering SCH already debuffs enemies, SGE already is the job to do increased damage, and AST already is the healer job that has AoE damage and CC (Gravity every 15 sec / Doublecast Gravity), changing WHM's miracle seems to serve no purpose other than killing WHM's design and making the healers more homogenized.

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Originally Posted by Niroken

It's a self defense ability. You would need to replace it with a self defense ability of equal value.

That said, I wouldn't mind a high damage skill considering that healers have pretty garbage damage.

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It isn't, it's an offensive skill 90% of time, you use it and kill them while they cannot do anything about it and you have the tools to survive the shorter range easily unlike bard who just dies when one person notices them.

And considering the lb whm has ontop of it, they don't deserve any potency buffs at all in their current state, they're one of the top jobs in pvp right now, they need 0 buffs.

I'll be fine with them extending the range to 15 or even 20y if they make purify work on it, but that's it.

Are people here seriously coping and thinking WHM needs an uncleansable hard Silence/Interrupt and justify the existence of this crap because it got nerfed before? When they also got the stunning deathray LB that is Afflatus: Purgation?

My brothers and sisters in christ, it can be turned into a normal 2s Silence with 15y range without issue, in fact if ppl were worried that WHM would end up too weak it could receive compensation buffs.

Uncleansable, unimmunable hard CC is generally a Limit Break thing and should NOT appear on a normal ability.

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Originally Posted by AtomicBomb

No, it's been nerfed enough and it's fine and good that jobs have powerful non-LB abilities you have to play around. It rewards players who are capable of adapting to the matchup.

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The problem is that you cannot play around MoM. If you have the misfortune, especially at high level, to be the target of that crap especially during an opener (but not only), the enemy team has all leeway to burst you down with you unable to do anything about it, purify or no purify, and full MP or no MP remaining.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

The tradeoff for Miracle being strong is range limitation for its single target usage & lack of damage. Unlike CC that binds/stuns/freezes (with the latter two preventing any action at all), You get to move freely during imp.

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I'll take MoM over any other kind of crowd control (LBs excepted). No question there, it's just a thousand levels above in effectiveness and lacks of counter. The only thing that will save you from it is that it's not always easy to coordinate when paired with randoms, so the WhM may use it and your team not follow well on it... but if they do follow, you're just screwed. On top of it, the WhM doesnt even always need a team to actually burst down people, if they just MoM the target, Afflatus the target, then Stun Purgation/kill the target (and that's where it becomes truly vicious, because the target cannot cleanse MoM, then it doesn't apply any cc immunity buff which leaves you vulnerable to another cc immediately).

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

Likewise, Miracle can be guarded against, like all non-LB CC. The most comparable case would then be to look at CC that doesn't stop movement but can still be purified, like Silence.

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Silence can be purified, that's not even remotely comparable. Guarding against crowd control is a fallacious argument since you cannot reliably guard against instant abilities that can come at any time (else good luck wasting your guards on nothing as the WhM can just shift their MoM on someone else when they see your shiny blue shield anyway, or they can just wait 5s until your guard is done and imp the crap out of you anyway).

And it's not like soft cc effects like bind, heavy or half asleep that can be cleansed by guarding since those cc effects don't prevent the use of abilities. MoM does to add insult to injury. I would actually not mind a MoM that is unpurifiable as today, but that can be guarded through after application (leaving you as an imp but guarding).

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

Miracle actually has a worse range (10y) and doesn't have a bonus benefit of having extra damage proc in its skillset (BRD's Silent Nocturne proc Pitch Perfect, which gives both an instant cast + feeds into Empyrean Arrow). This means WHM has to be even closer than mid-range and enter melee range as a caster.

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WhM has strong mitigation tools on top of potent additional heals that any flimsy caster utterly lacks, and let's not talk about BRD. There is a reason regen healers are very good at tanking and holding points. WhM can definitely afford to jump into the fray as long as they don't leroy (most classes shouldn't leroyy anyway).

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

For Miracle to not be a unique effect debuff and just turn into a silence, it would have to give a lot more advantages comparable to other jobs, ex: much higher increased damage, be an aoe CC, or debuff enemies. All while having a lowered cd (25 sec -> 20 sec at minimum).

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I do agree with this.

Miracle of Nature can also be used to negate or even outright cancel an opponents limit break, mid limit break. An example of this is instant miracle on a RDM casting LB and canceling the second half of the pulse. Browsing through the forums you can see many other examples of this due to the server tick rate in PvP where people get miracled as soon as they press their LB, lose the LB charge but nothing happens because they are transformed into a piglet instantly.

Miracle of Nature needs to be removed from the game and I will die on that hill. It wouldn't be so bad if WHM wasn't so aggressively used by bot players to cancel limit breaks of every caliber.

I love the cheese, but everyone want a cheese as good and then nobody gets a cheese.

Or imagine if it made a target impervious to damage for the duration XD And you still have your "defensive" ability.

It doesn't need to be removed, but you should be able to purify it and it needs to stop going through buffs that are supposed to have short periods of immunity to CC.

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Originally Posted by AtomicBomb

No, it's been nerfed enough and it's fine and good that jobs have powerful non-LB abilities you have to play around. It rewards players who are capable of adapting to the matchup.

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Its still hands down the strongest CC in the game...

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Originally Posted by Sinstrel

Miracle of Nature can also be used to negate or even outright cancel an opponents limit break, mid limit break. An example of this is instant miracle on a RDM casting LB and canceling the second half of the pulse. Browsing through the forums you can see many other examples of this due to the server tick rate in PvP where people get miracled as soon as they press their LB, lose the LB charge but nothing happens because they are transformed into a piglet instantly.

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Is this true? I'd like to see a clip. As soon as the other players' client becomes aware that a LB has been cast, it's already snapshotted and too late to stop it, even on LBs with a very long delay in damage like Megaflare.

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Originally Posted by AtomicBomb

Is this true? I'd like to see a clip. As soon as the other players' client becomes aware that a LB has been cast, it's already snapshotted and too late to stop it, even on LBs with a very long delay in damage like Megaflare.

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This is definitely true. While I don't have footage available, I did lose SAM Zantetsuken kills from this (it simply didnt happen anymore) as well as losing the up-to 24000dmg cleave from Eventide. It requires very strict timing which is mostly achievable by... running a combat script. Which they will do as soon as the server received the info that you pressed that button.

As you can tell, this BS is induced more by ppl cheating but is existent

Can confirm. I remember playing NIN and the moment i pressed LB button i would be insta MoM'd and then just killed.
The WHM likely used script, but it's such a gray unprovable area, report likely wouldn't have done anything.

Had war lb interrupted plenty of times by miracle of nonsense.

But tbh, this is a problem with ff14 pvp overall, stop with the flashy animations, when I press an instant cast button that action should activate IMMEDIATELY, no half a second delay or anything, this isn't pve but they seem tp design it like that anyway.

Which is why all ff14 pvp is a joke in the first place and the one thing wow does miles better (despite still having problems) is combat in general, but especially pvp.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

This is definitely true. While I don't have footage available, I did lose SAM Zantetsuken kills from this (it simply didnt happen anymore) as well as losing the up-to 24000dmg cleave from Eventide. It requires very strict timing which is mostly achievable by... running a combat script. Which they will do as soon as the server received the info that you pressed that button.

As you can tell, this BS is induced more by ppl cheating but is existent

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Can confirm on Zantetsuken, it happened to me from a simple stun. Never had the problem with Spite, not sure if super lucky or if some LBs are sensitive to it and some are not. It's frustrating like nothing.

I would love for WHM to not be the "META" pick out of the healers. There are so many people playing WHM right now because "strongest healer bro!" meanwhile they tilt out when they lose and somehow have less healing than the dps. The job needs reworked to be honest but yes the unpurifyable CC is trash.

Tbh and that may be what explains that WhM used to be on the lower end of victory ratios from SE's liveletters, is that most players attracted to healers in pvp go for the easiest and most forgiving, aka WHM, and also don't utilize the kit to its fullest. They just go along with the battle healer side of it, while forgetting to support their team mates with potent heals and mitigation (which is what makes healers hard carry at high skill levels).

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Originally Posted by Elfidan

I would love for WHM to not be the "META" pick out of the healers. There are so many people playing WHM right now because "strongest healer bro!" meanwhile they tilt out when they lose and somehow have less healing than the dps. The job needs reworked to be honest but yes the unpurifyable CC is trash.

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AST has been the strongest healer choice in high ranked pretty much every season though.

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Originally Posted by Nanne

AST has been the strongest healer choice in high ranked pretty much every season though.

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The simple answer to that is it's just easier to play than WHM at very high rank. Since it is harder for most jobs to get optimal LB usage vs. more intelligent players (usually LB leads to a single or double kill compared to a party wipe in low ranks), AST can easily just double click instant heal and negate burst on reaction.

People play games to have fun. For a lot people, winning = fun. So they will swap to the easiest job that gets them a dopamine hit. Not saying this is everyone, some people do like challenging themselves by climbing with nerfed/low teir/disadvantaged jobs. But this certainly does not feel like the majority of people.

[QUOTE=AnnRam;6266681Delete WHM Miracle of Nature skilll asap.[/QUOTE]

Do you at least know that there are ways of not displaying the effects of other players in your party, in pvp and in the plubic zone?

How about separately? You can either disable them completely or partially.

It's amazing, I know. Digging into your interface and effects options will save you this kind of Topic.

Hate this skill, annoying af. Needs rework.
How about adding a: "All incoming damage decreased by 100%", that is, under MoM you can't do anything, but you can't be killed either. Dunno, but as is, it's way too powerful.

At present, a major counter to Miracle of Nature is to counter-intuitively: provoke its use. Do this pretty regularly as a melee, leap around a corner, spook a WHM who is so focused on other things that they immediately focus me and use it, then retreat. If your team picks up on this, pretty much everyone should focus them down enough to make them withdraw or take the fall. It's pretty much a given that if a WHM is present, no LB cast is safe as none are guarded against polymorph and require their whole animation to play before the effect takes place... a discussion on skewed design priorities for another time perhaps.

Naturally the above tactic is more effective on the lower scale of things, people aware of such things will use their plethora of other tools to foil the diversion and if their team is hyper-vigilant, it's incredibly dangerous to pull off. As for how CC actions go, it is undeniably busted and all too regularly available. Tuning either to the skill, or to LB use/Guard in general I feel may resolve some of the worst issues behind it, as reliance on psychological provocations hardly seems fitting as the only effective counter-strategy since it applies only under certain circumstances, and with caveats.

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Originally Posted by Naoki34

Do you at least know that there are ways of not displaying the effects of other players in your party, in pvp and in the plubic zone?

How about separately? You can either disable them completely or partially.

It's amazing, I know. Digging into your interface and effects options will save you this kind of Topic.

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Do you understand what they were talking about?

HOneslty if they cahnge Miracle to be instead afflictus "score a take down (Scoring a kill and not getting an assist) grants a stack of afflictus up to two stacks." Now how would afflictus benefit more then miracle? Afflictus can heal a target based on stacks. two stacks gives a 28,000 heal. one stack gives 14,000 heal. Forces WHM to be more risky and gets a reward in return. Not stand back and jsut use miracle, lb then repeat while being safe while draining MP from a target wiht miracle