Please stop inserting unbranching combos in new jobs

This has been a trend more and more whether it is with new jobs like RPR, or reworked jobs like MCH (please bring back ammo, you had literally no reason to remove reloads), and a lot of tanks.

The whole points of basic combos as far as I understood it has always been to have at least one or two branches to pick from after the first skill. Else you'd just be better served by replacing them with a single pvp like button for all that matters. Why do we even bother with combos if that's just always pressing the 3 same buttons in succession?

This is just depressing to think about.

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Originally Posted by Valence

The whole points of basic combos as far as I understood it has always been to have at least one or two branches to pick from after the first skill. Else you'd just be better served by replacing them with a single pvp like button for all that matters. Why do we even bother with combos if that's just always pressing the 3 same buttons in succession?

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A lot of msq duties already showed that condensing a 3 button combo into 1 button can be done, without breaking the combo effect in it.

And tbh, for some jobs it would be a decent feature to exist, while still enabling chaining. We can even improve it so it becomes a lot more complex:
1 gets the 123 combo as we know (lets call these A,B,C)
button 2 gets a chain action for B and C, upon using B, this ability changes to D (and disables C -> which becomes A again), and the same with C (which turns this to E)
button 3 gets chains for both C, D and E (F,G,H).

Condensing a normaly 5 button chain into 3 buttons.

And for some jobs which basicly follow a 123 for single target, aeo, debuff in 3 seperate chains (using 9 buttons in total), this enables a lot of condensing without realy changing a lot in result.

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This could even work for a 2 button combo:
You start with A and B on btn 1 and 2. Upon using A, they change do C and D, and upon using B (or D), they change back to A and B. And upon using C, it changes to E and F, which both take it back to A and B again.
I think healers would benefit a lot from such mechanic to get their dps chaining a bit more interesting. As for debuffs/buffs just having a dot isnt the only thing that can be done. The healer can also boost themselve in these systems. ACE would then be the highest DPS, While B for example applies a % based damage boost, and D applies a boost towards healing output, and F adds some sort of stack which upon the next E cast is used for additional damage.

Button condensing is powerful, but we will need a basic numbers of buttons for it though, hence the 123 combo we have now is good to keep for that. But as now we can still put everything on 3 hotbars, condensing isnt needed yet, condensed buttons are after all a lot harder to read when new to the job.

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Originally Posted by UkcsAlias

A lot of msq duties already showed that condensing a 3 button combo into 1 button can be done

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The MSQ duties use single button combos because you can't expect every player who plays through the MSQ to know how to play every single job so that they can finish the story. For real jobs, the devs expect players to know enough basics not to press buttons out of order.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

The MSQ duties use single button combos because you can't expect every player who plays through the MSQ to know how to play every single job so that they can finish the story. For real jobs, the devs expect players to know enough basics not to press buttons out of order.

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Most duties barely even use 5 buttons. With a 123 that would be 7 buttons. That should be easily managable on its own.

But that wasnt my statement anyway, I only said that it shows it CAN be done. Not that it should. And that it can enables some flexibility in the combo systems for jobs. And its not even that strange anyway to have, note that dancer already has 8 double purpose buttons (normal use, and dancing). For dancer they even can combo into each other.

Double purpose buttons are a very efficient way of compacting abilities, and can themselve also feature more. And some jobs would definitely benefit from some of these features.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Why do we even bother with combos if that's just always pressing the 3 same buttons in succession?

This is just depressing to think about.

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https://filebin.net/oci6lqjjqaj71dwk...rtankbrian.png

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Originally Posted by Tint

https://filebin.net/oci6lqjjqaj71dwk...rtankbrian.png

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Put Glare on three different buttons, and just push them in 123 order.

You simulate the amazing gameplay of 123 and really stick it to us other players who just aren't good enough to do that.

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Originally Posted by UkcsAlias

A lot of msq duties already showed that condensing a 3 button combo into 1 button can be done, without breaking the combo effect in it.

And tbh, for some jobs it would be a decent feature to exist, while still enabling chaining. We can even improve it so it becomes a lot more complex:
1 gets the 123 combo as we know (lets call these A,B,C)
button 2 gets a chain action for B and C, upon using B, this ability changes to D (and disables C -> which becomes A again), and the same with C (which turns this to E)
button 3 gets chains for both C, D and E (F,G,H).

Condensing a normaly 5 button chain into 3 buttons.

And for some jobs which basicly follow a 123 for single target, aeo, debuff in 3 seperate chains (using 9 buttons in total), this enables a lot of condensing without realy changing a lot in result.

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This could even work for a 2 button combo:
You start with A and B on btn 1 and 2. Upon using A, they change do C and D, and upon using B (or D), they change back to A and B. And upon using C, it changes to E and F, which both take it back to A and B again.
I think healers would benefit a lot from such mechanic to get their dps chaining a bit more interesting. As for debuffs/buffs just having a dot isnt the only thing that can be done. The healer can also boost themselve in these systems. ACE would then be the highest DPS, While B for example applies a % based damage boost, and D applies a boost towards healing output, and F adds some sort of stack which upon the next E cast is used for additional damage.

Button condensing is powerful, but we will need a basic numbers of buttons for it though, hence the 123 combo we have now is good to keep for that. But as now we can still put everything on 3 hotbars, condensing isnt needed yet, condensed buttons are after all a lot harder to read when new to the job.

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But... I never asked for condensing combo buttons like in pvp...

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Originally Posted by Tint

https://filebin.net/oci6lqjjqaj71dwk...rtankbrian.png

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That's beyond depressing bruh

123 combos aren't gameplay. Squash them into one button and keep the animations if you must. Replace the other two with skills that make you decide something.

The fact that Square is allergic to increasing complexity should be no barrier to demanding it. It beats pretending that static 123 combos are thrilling gameplay worthy of defense.

I understand that some people would like 1-2-3 combos to be 1 button, but I prefer having 3 different buttons for them. I'd be very sad if it were changed. To make everyone happy, let us choose how combos work at the control settings!

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Originally Posted by Rongway

The MSQ duties use single button combos because you can't expect every player who plays through the MSQ to know how to play every single job so that they can finish the story. For real jobs, the devs expect players to know enough basics not to press buttons out of order.

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True or not, 3-step combos that don't branch could, and should, be reduced to 1 button if for no other reason than condensing bar space. If they want classes to have as many superfluous buttons as SAM or BLM have, nevermind AST or PLD, they need to condense redundant buttons down, and the best place is just to make 3-step combos 1 button. For most classes it wouldn't even make it harder or easier to play, it's just about not having useless buttons.

After that it's mostly about getting rid of redundant buttons like Shoha/Shoha 2, Foul/Xenoglossy. Basically mutually exclusive skills that have a single target and AoE version of what is otherwise an identical skill. But button bloat is another problem unto itself.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

True or not, 3-step combos that don't branch could, and should, be reduced to 1 button if for no other reason than condensing bar space. If they want classes to have as many superfluous buttons as SAM or BLM have, nevermind AST or PLD, they need to condense redundant buttons down, and the best place is just to make 3-step combos 1 button. For most classes it wouldn't even make it harder or easier to play, it's just about not having useless buttons.

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Hard Disagree here. Specially when it comes to a Job " I play " that you don't.

First buttons to save up for SAM would be...

• Fusing Shoha I and Shoha II with fall off damage
• Fusing Guren and Senei with fall off damage
• Ikishoten turning into Ogi Namikiri

This saves 3 buttons before we ever consider Combo Button compression ( And what should have taken prio over Kaiten removal ) as this changes nothing about the difficulty/execution of our rotation. Leave everything else alone until they present me something better to replace whatever anyone is suggesting to remove.

This... idiotic concept... of suggesting to remove something to make room for something better in the foreseeable future? is imbecilic. My Kaiten got deleted April 12th, 2022 patch 6.1... for over a year replaced with " Nothing better ". Am I to expect any better when my Combo buttons get reduced to a singular button? Wait another year or two cause we made room for something new? that's rich.

The way I define " Button Bloat ", is when I require macro's or special equipment to play a class or job. Even before Kaiten removal? I had zero issues with SAM execution. Although SAM's non-existing Button Bloat issue, is another topic.

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

Hard Disagree here. Specially when it comes to a Job " I play " that you don't.

First buttons to save up for SAM would be...

• Fusing Shoha I and Shoha II with fall off damage
• Fusing Guren and Senei with fall off damage
• Ikishoten turning into Ogi Namikiri

This saves 3 buttons before we ever consider Combo Button compression ( And what should have taken prio over Kaiten removal ) as this changes nothing about the difficulty/execution of our rotation. Leave everything else alone until they present me something better to replace whatever anyone is suggesting to remove.

This... idiotic concept... of suggesting to remove something to make room for something better in the foreseeable future? is imbecilic. My Kaiten got deleted April 12th, 2022 patch 6.1... for over a year replaced with " Nothing better ". Am I to expect any better when my Combo buttons get reduced to a singular button? Wait another year or two cause we made room for something new? that's rich.

The way I define " Button Bloat ", is when I require macro's or special equipment to play a class or job. Even before Kaiten removal? I had zero issues with SAM execution. Although SAM's non-existing Button Bloat issue, is another topic.

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Samurai has branching combos. Why the hell are you responding to me? I was referring to Warrior, DRK, GNB, PLD, RPR. SAM has 3 separate branched combos, of course they shouldn't be 1 button.

Also don't forget combining Ikishoten with Guren. You have 4 damned 2 minute cooldowns that are used simultaneously under almost all scenarios. You can combine those 6 buttons into 2 and lose absolutely nothing of value by just having ikishoten get merged with Guren, which was merged with Senei, which turns into Ogi Namakure. 4 buttons for the cost of 1 oGCD.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

Samurai has branching combos. Why the hell are you responding to me? I was referring to Warrior, DRK, GNB, PLD, RPR. SAM has 3 separate branched combos, of course they shouldn't be 1 button.
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Warrior has branching combos though?

PvP-esque combos are only a matter of time. Pressing 1 to 3 isn't complex. It's kinda sad that so much has been lost that people genuinely think that pruning that aspect would break the camel's back. That already happened years ago. lol

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Originally Posted by fulminating

Warrior has branching combos though?

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PLD had that too just a few months ago when he still got the balls and wasn't a Tesco value Gunbreaker.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

It's kinda sad that so much has been lost that people genuinely think that pruning that aspect would break the camel's back. That already happened years ago. lol

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Camel is dead, we're just trying to delay the camel's burial.

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One of many problems with auto combo is that it's not even applicable to everyone. SAM could stay the same, but now RPR for example, who is already pretty barebones, has even less skills. No, they will not add more skills. Only time when they actually add something is at expansion release (2 skills usually) and occasionally they recycle old skill (Bulwark). They will not add anything to compensate for it.

So please, if someone wants auto combo, just download XIVCombo and leave others alone. It takes like 5 minutes to get plugins (according to my mum's friend's goldfish). Jobs are primitive enough, positionals and 1-2-3 are one of the last mechanics jobs have, asside from higher end optimalizations.

Also, if you're unironically using XIVCombo because of the infamous phrase "button bloat", consider checking your keybinds. There is no way that someone without physical handicap is unable to use keybinds for some ~30 buttons, half of which is situational/infrequent. Leveling and MSQ progression is super slow, no way that you can't get used to it after 300-500 hours. And if you really can't, then that's a you problem.

To be more clear on what I meant, is that my particular problem is with non branching combos. This means that:

1) Combos that are always 1-2-3 are bland and as a design could be combined into one pvp button. I don't mind if they do this if for once we get something in return, like interesting other buttons and mechanics that prove more intricate than this baby sequence.
2) Combos that still branch are fine by me. I never liked combos much, but I don't hate those and they at least provide choice and decisions to make.

This argument can be extended just as easily to branching combos as well. There's no real difference between '123' and '124'. If they do it, it's likely going to happen to all jobs at the same time.

I personally think that it's a bad idea, and there will inevitably be a significant amount of backlash against it. If you thought the outrage over Kaiten was overwhelming, this would be even bigger.

No, it cannot be extended to branching combos. You can definitely combine some buttons, but you still have a choice of "path" to make depending on the branch you need to use at any given time, which the unbranching ones do not offer. This is what prompted that post originally.

Soooo, if I’m correct,

DRk combos would be like: 111 111 111. 2 when you have to bloodspiller/quietus.
WAR would be 112 111 111 111 112. 3 when you have to Fell cleave and 4 when you have to Primal Rend.
PLD would be 111 222 4 111 222 4 111 222 4 333 (where 2 is Ato, 4 HS, 3 Confiteor combo)
GNB would be 111 2(5)2(5)2(5) (2(5) Continuation combo)

DRG would be 11111 22222
MCH would be 111 111 1111
And so on…

Really I’m not getting the point how condensing a simple 123 into a 111 could be better.
I main the last most busy jobs left in the game (DRK/GNB DRG AST) and there isn’t a real “button bloat” problem, just a skill issues problem (or ping issues that would be more understandable tbh).
If there are more OGCDs/GCDs in the game, it could be a better thing for sure but now? Nah, I don’t think it’s a good idea with these skills we have now.
Just my opinion tho.

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Originally Posted by Jokerz_93

Really I’m not getting the point how condensing a simple 123 into a 111 could be better.

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If its only condensing and no extra branching its worse. But condensing makes 2 more buttons in easy reach for potential additional branches:
For example using just 3 buttons these can still be diffirent combos while keeping the same initiator.

Thats where condensing can be powerful. Here a simplistic example while not going for full variety:
123 is the default as we know it. Nothing even changes here. But as alternative combos you can have 132, 122 and 133. The 2nd button you pressed decides what the 2 and 3 button will be at the final step. Giving 4 potential branches to pick from.
But we can take it further, as we can also make double pressing the 1 cause a diffirent branch, and this then means a combo like 113 can exist. This is obviously a bit less clean, but effective.

But why stop at 3 button combos in this case? what if 1233 and 1322 are both the 4 button combos (where 1232 will have broken the combo and perform the weak 2)? And maybe other abilities can even branch into this? For example button 4 is a boost modifier button that at a variety of steps can boost the effects. 123, 1243, 132, 1432 can all become a combo then.

Ninja already shows such condensing system. Its not new in the game. And for ninja while the buttons are quickly to select an ability, for other jobs it doesnt have to.

And even then, it doesnt have to be a full set of combos. Even just 123 and 132 can be more than enough for branching. With the advantage of not requiring new buttons.

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Originally Posted by Jokerz_93

DRG would be 11111 22222
MCH would be 111 111 1111
And so on…

Really I’m not getting the point how condensing a simple 123 into a 111 could be better. .

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If anything? it showcases how much more dumber and boring our Jobs gameplay can become... If I oversimplify SAM of what it is now, vs what people believe they are suggesting, vs what I think could possibly happen by encouraging this route of Job design...

- Present 6.1
TN - M 368 (Iai) M 3 (Iai->Ogi) 3678 (Iai) end opener
123-456-78 (Iai) 123-456-78 M 3 (Iai) 3678 (Iai)

- vs Suggestion of compression
TN - M 123 (Iai) M 1 (Iai->Ogi) 1233 (Iai) end opener
111-222-33 (Iai) 111-222-33 (Iai) M 1 (Iai) 1233 (Iai)

- Worst case I can imagine happening...
No TN - M 111 (Iai) M 1 (Iai->Ogi) 1111 (Iai) end opener
111-111-11 (Iai) 111-111-11 (Iai) M 1 (Iai) 1111 (Iai)

There's No promise Square will give us any depth/improvement/nuance - just anything after we suggest to remove anything from our Jobs. As they continue to homogenize our Jobs? they have not really added any depth of any kind in Endwalker, all they done is simplify and streamline everything. And when they smack the concept of fully un-branching combo's on say a new Job? it wouldn't surprise me to transfer a testing concept that functionally works onto others, even if the gameplay is worse.

I can't recall the last added layer of depth they implemented after they removed two layers off of each Job. I'm still waiting for something that supposedly was supposed to replace my " Kaiten ", mhm

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Originally Posted by Valence

No, it cannot be extended to branching combos. You can definitely combine some buttons, but you still have a choice of "path" to make depending on the branch you need to use at any given time, which the unbranching ones do not offer. This is what prompted that post originally.

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It definitely can and the first time condensed combo was introduced to PvP, it was done like that.

You had one combo (I) doing 1-2-3 and the other (II) doing 1-2-4 for instance. Their icons were the next WS to do with I or II on the top right. The first time you were pressing either combo (so WS 1), both combos were updated to ready WS 2. Then, next time you were pressing either of them, they would update to WS 3 for the first combo and WS 4 for the second combo. Finishing either combo would reset both of them.

In case the combos were 1-2-3 and 1-4-5, after the second WS, the unchosen combo would reset while the chosen one would continue to the last WS.

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Originally Posted by UkcsAlias

Thats where condensing can be powerful. Here a simplistic example while not going for full variety:
123 is the default as we know it. Nothing even changes here. But as alternative combos you can have 132, 122 and 133. The 2nd button you pressed decides what the 2 and 3 button will be at the final step. Giving 4 potential branches to pick from.
But we can take it further, as we can also make double pressing the 1 cause a diffirent branch, and this then means a combo like 113 can exist. This is obviously a bit less clean, but effective.

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Whilst the hypothetical is fine, what you then have to do is give each one a reason to exist. Why should I do 123 over 132 for example. Without duplicating, you have 6 possibilities (123, 132, 213, 231, 312, 321) and each one needs to have a reason to exist. So, let's try. One is going to be a pure damage, one a DoT, one a damage buff, maybe a debuff...maybe an oGCD makes one stronger, maybe go the Monk route and have one combo make the damage one stronger (in the same way DK makes BS stronger).

But now we have the issue of fitting it into a clean rotational loop. You have 18 GCDs, at 2.5 seconds, you get 24. Hm, maybe we have it so the combos proc a 4th GCD that changes based on what comes before. That gives an extra 6 GCDs making a clean 1 minute loop. Add some oGCDs here and there and voila, here is the baseline for every job if you want to do away with combos and have something more free flowing. But, wouldn't that make every job feel the same? Why yes it would.

And therein lies the problem. It would be fine for a single job, but you couldn't make all jobs do it, in the same way Monk has something different (you 'combo' your forms, you just choose which GCD to use in said form) but you wouldn't make EVERY job follow that framework otherwise, every job would be the same.

As to the topic at hand, I have no problems if they want to condense the buttons, just make it an option for people to turn on if they want to and no, just because they combine the buttons doesn't necessarily mean they will add something else to replace it.

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Originally Posted by Erinellza

I understand that some people would like 1-2-3 combos to be 1 button, but I prefer having 3 different buttons for them. I'd be very sad if it were changed. To make everyone happy, let us choose how combos work at the control settings!

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This!, I'm surprised how little the idea of OPTIONAL PvP combo buttons are mentioned.

Like given the action system it could just be a button that says 1.skill, 2.skill, 3.skill in the same way PvP already exists.
It already exists in game and would be a great QOL addition.

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

This... idiotic concept... of suggesting to remove something to make room for something better in the foreseeable future? is imbecilic.

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Putting aside that Taranok was referring specifically to combos like that of modern DRK and PLD (no more CD-less Goring Blade) and had already suggested the exact same kinds of consolidations that you later did...

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Originally Posted by Taranok

getting rid of redundant buttons like Shoha/Shoha 2, Foul/Xenoglossy. Basically mutually exclusive skills that have a single target and AoE version of what is otherwise an identical skill. But button bloat is another problem unto itself.

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...you can still have button-mobile gameplay even in consolidated combos... if we just stopped fetishizing (clear/obvious/forcibly) non-choices as if they were actual depth.

For instance, to take an old concept floating around from Stormblood, imagine if Dragoon simply had 3 buttons around which to "combo" in any of varying paths. At any given GCD step, until you complete the combo, you have access to...
A. a Surge skill,
B. a Flurry skill,
C. and a Stream skill.

First GCD / "Opener":
A - True Thrust (+% Potency Bonus, lingering for the whole combo or fixed duration)
B - Impulse Drive (+Potency per hit, flat, lingering for the whole combo or fixed duration)
C - Doom Spike (+Applies flat Armor reduction)

Second GCD / "Bridge":
A - Vorpal Thrust (Has bonus Suppression; multi-hits)
B - Disembowel (Has Armor reduction)
C - Sonic Thrust (Separate hits, therefore scaling well with flat potency bonuses)

Third GCD / "Finisher":
A - Full Thrust (Just a single big damn hit)
B - Chaos Thrust (DoT, with individual ticks therefore scaling about evenly with % or flat bonuses, in total; multi-hits)
C - [Coerthan Torment] (Magic damage, not affected by Armor)

Wheeling Thrust [two-strikes, the latter being a radial AoE] and Fang and Claw [now two strikes, with short, narrow linear AoEs with falloff] could then be held and would duplicate a portion of the prior finisher (CT duration stacking up to 30s). WT's the AoE portion of which then scales better with flat potency increases after CT.

Yes, Full Thrust will scale best off True Thrust and Sonic Thrust better off Impulse or Doom Spike, such that you ultimately just have 5-6 combos with best in-practice use cases, especially in sustained rotation... but that's still a lot better than 6 out of 7 GCD skills being effectively greyed out for 9 out of 10 GCDs in single-target combat.

And you could build off that base, too, to eventually have the individual skills influence what skills follow for fully conditional branching paths instead of paths based on synergies, etc., etc.
__________

Having fewer buttons doesn't have to mean any significant amount less button-movement, and very often forces greater total nuance. Of course, we wouldn't have ended up in a situation where consolidation would even look feasible if the devs hadn't mistaken button count (and its non-choice bloat tools like AoE|ST pairs) for our actual moment-to-moment gameplay or decision-making.

While I don't think there's any added gameplay value to be had in mere XIVCombo or PvP-style consolidation (though I wouldn't begrudge that becoming an option just for QoL, given slight accordant adjustments to those using redundant keys for parity), a rework of the game's "combos" (which are... not remotely combinations, but instead merely inflexible multi-button sequences for singular actions, akin to more constrained/bloated mudras) seems a very lucrative design space.

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Originally Posted by Yasminou

It definitely can and the first time condensed combo was introduced to PvP, it was done like that.

You had one combo (I) doing 1-2-3 and the other (II) doing 1-2-4 for instance. Their icons were the next WS to do with I or II on the top right. The first time you were pressing either combo (so WS 1), both combos were updated to ready WS 2. Then, next time you were pressing either of them, they would update to WS 3 for the first combo and WS 4 for the second combo. Finishing either combo would reset both of them.

In case the combos were 1-2-3 and 1-4-5, after the second WS, the unchosen combo would reset while the chosen one would continue to the last WS.

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I said the argument that it would be the same cannot be extended to branching combos, not that the system couldn't be extended to them.

Of course you can combine buttons to most branching combos we have right now, some more than others.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

Whilst the hypothetical is fine, what you then have to do is give each one a reason to exist. Why should I do 123 over 132 for example. Without duplicating, you have 6 possibilities (123, 132, 213, 231, 312, 321) and each one needs to have a reason to exist. So, let's try. One is going to be a pure damage, one a DoT, one a damage buff, maybe a debuff...maybe an oGCD makes one stronger, maybe go the Monk route and have one combo make the damage one stronger (in the same way DK makes BS stronger).

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Not all need to exist. And as you already imagined, chains dont have to start at 1 either.
But for example this is possible:
123 is just the normal damage
But after pressing 1, 3 becomes a button that applies a self buff (+5% dps for 30s?), and allows 2 to be chained afterward, this 2 is then just the basic 2 again, so after this its a 3 again.
this gives 123 and 1323 as combos.

Now we dont have to stop here, as we can have all 1,2 and 3 as initiators for certain chains. But they arent required to exist.

We can for example also introduce a 11 chain where each consecutive 1 adds stack that allows a faster cast of for example 3, creating as combo: 113. And sure, the example i gave here is bad since it makes 113 compete with 123, but its to show a potential chaining system in a condensed situation.

Its up to the devs what they will use. But i generaly would focus on the case of: if a button is ment to be chained, but has no feature outside of that chain, its generaly worth to condense (make it the initiator for a diffirent chain).

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

Whilst the hypothetical is fine, what you then have to do is give each one a reason to exist. Why should I do 123 over 132 for example. Without duplicating, you have 6 possibilities (123, 132, 213, 231, 312, 321) and each one needs to have a reason to exist. So, let's try. One is going to be a pure damage, one a DoT, one a damage buff, maybe a debuff...maybe an oGCD makes one stronger, maybe go the Monk route and have one combo make the damage one stronger (in the same way DK makes BS stronger).

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Ideally, this. Every key should ideally have a reason to exist at every step.

Though, that's also so far above what we have now that it's asking for divine quality while living in eradiated fecal waste. I'd therefore be content with every key having a reason to exist at almost every step, and at least a majority of steps giving every key a reason to exist.



Interesting to note, too, though, is that we can also differentiate even that ideal state with more dynamic combos.

At the moment, difference in "combos" is just how many forks they have and how often one can actually engage in them. SAM ST has 3 forks, available every 2-3 GCDs. DRG has 2, effectively available only 1 in 10 GCDs (though instead 1 in 5 GCDs in two-target combat). WAR and NIN ST have 2, available per 3 GCDs. GNB, DRK, and PLD each have just 1, which is effectively none / no decision-making around/regarding combo choice.

That's effectively just... a competition in how wasteful they can be.

By comparison, more dynamic combos could instead feature differences like:

• Synergies (Skill A has synergies with multiple follow-ups, perhaps at multiple steps, allowing for a differently advantaged combo from the paths leading through them) vs. Replacements (using Skill A vs. B for the opener literally changes what options come thereafter).
  
  
• Discrete Finisher[s] (you have a discrete key to fast-burst from the opener at resource cost, stop your combo short, or finish off an empowered combo) vs. Prepped Finishers (skill becomes a finisher once its prior use has already been performed -- open rune -> burst rune, so to speak) vs. Fixed Length (the combo always uses its nth GCD as a finisher, so you don't need any key).
  
  
• Repeatable Actions (you can, during at least one combo step / Form, repeat a certain action that keeps you from moving to the next step yet -- useful for GCD sync), Cumulative Actions (repeatable, but ramping in intensity of its own throughput or buff provided -- also useful for situational burst), or Neither.
  
  
• Unidirectional combos (only proceed in a single direction of options opened up) vs. Bidirectional (can move back towards previous steps, which then wouldn't necessarily be any less powerful, but only by one step at a time) vs. Freeform (capable of jumping even to non-adjacent steps, akin to Monk during PB).
  
  
• Etc., etc.

What do you guys think you will get:
https://storage.googleapis.com/dashf...ff43600809.jpg

What will you really get:
https://i.imgur.com/qsfE1FE.png

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Deo14

What do you guys think you will get:

What will you really get:

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If left to just the devs in a sort of "spacemaking" attempt instead of an explicitly "depth-increasing" one... I'd agree.

I feel like for that reason we should probably be asking to make every combo have complexity worthy of its button-count, rather than a button-count befitting its (lack of) complexity. I'll admit, though, that those two things sound a lot alike, especially to anyone who's only ever played with an XIV idea of "combos" in an MMO or MMO-adjacent setting.

Our GCD rotations really are currently the most wasteful, lackluster (especially, relative to what more they could easily support) part of job design at the moment, though.

We absolutely should be looking to improve upon (not merely simplify) them, but that does require not putting on a pedestal what they are now on the basis of what they could be and instead actually trying to reach those more lucrative prospects.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

If left to just the devs in a sort of "spacemaking" attempt instead of an explicitly "depth-increasing" one... I'd agree.

I feel like for that reason we should probably be asking to make every combo have complexity worthy of its button-count, rather than a button-count befitting its (lack of) complexity. I'll admit, though, that those two things sound a lot alike, especially to anyone who's only ever played with an XIV idea of "combos" in an MMO or MMO-adjacent setting.

Our GCD rotations really are currently the most wasteful, lackluster (especially, relative to what more they could easily support) part of job design at the moment, though.

We absolutely should be looking to improve upon (not merely simplify) them, but that does require not putting on a pedestal what they are now on the basis of what they could be and instead actually trying to reach those more lucrative prospects.

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Don't get me wrong, I agree with you, but it just feels hopeless to ask them to do anything that isn't dumbing down jobs even more. Hell, you don't even need to ask them, they'll do it anyways. But yeah, I just don't have much faith left in job design in this game. They can't even bring back one fucking skill that we've been asking for nearly 1.5 year. If all the Kaiten uproar with 100s of threads just on EN OF didn't work, nothing else will. Last solution is manufacturing some drama, since they started doing some QoL stuff after all the plugin drama last year.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Deo14

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you, but it just feels hopeless to ask them to do anything that isn't dumbing down jobs even more. Hell, you don't even need to ask them, they'll do it anyways. But yeah, I just don't have much faith left in job design in this game. They can't even bring back one fucking skill that we've been asking for nearly 1.5 year. If all the Kaiten uproar with 100s of threads just on EN OF didn't work, nothing else will. Last solution is manufacturing some drama, since they started doing some QoL stuff after all the plugin drama last year.

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I get that. Sadly, the only solutions the devs have historically seemed willing to take up are those that let them reduce their work:

2.0 WAR utterly lacks parity? Homogenize it.
4.0 DRK is painfully underpowered? Homogenize it.
5.0 NIN is made hectic because of the inability to queue mudras correctly? Don't fix queuing, but instead just turn all mudras into GCDs and remove yet another NIN combo so they don't get uppity again (they did say it was "too hectic" after all).
6.0 MCH is still complaining about the game's doubly punishing ping for no discernible reason? Don't deal with that; just change Hypercharge into stacks to further degrade SkS.
6.0 PLD falls fall short in overall capacity, especially aDPS? Don't actually buff them or do anything with Sword Oath to accelerate their opener as is; just replace their DoT combo with a 60s GCD-CD and merge their CDs.


But at the same time, if we limit even our suggestions to that kind of jadedness... what possible hope does the game have?

Just condensing every combo in a vacuum wouldn't really achiveve a lot, to be honest. Maybe in the case of a really button bloated job.

What I wanted are condensed combos with something extra behind it, like for example, interactivity with other aspects of the toolkit based on the stage that you're at, or multiple 1 button combos that change another big action depending on the stage you left them at. I see is that as an opportunity to forge interesting job mechanics that would require multiple vacant keys, or else... What we'll get in 7.0 is merely yet another 120s action to align with the meta, and maybe a personal utility here and there.

So I agree with condensing combos like PVP, but only if there's something interesting gained behind that change, because (I mentioned this on other threads) truthfully the 1-2-3 combos we have are just a test of our finger reflexes and attention span rather than our capacity to think.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Deo14

Last solution is manufacturing some drama, since they started doing some QoL stuff after all the plugin drama last year.

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Every big streamer starts openly using a clientside mod that changes one of their SAM animations back to Kaiten (probably Ikishoten), Kaiten returns in very next patch