Bard nerf is garbage

Silent nocturne nerf was completely unnecessary.

In high tier games, players can easily run out of range. It’s bad enough that bard’s burst relies heavily on silent nocturne and now players can run away AND line of sight more easily from it. Warden’s paean buff isn’t going to offset the nocturne nerf. On top of that, using silent nocturne is now reactive instead proactive, so you can’t even be as aggressive because positioning just got 10x harder especially on maps with a lot of obstacles/walls.

If anything, it should’ve been nerfed to 20y, not 15.

/endrant

It was the best CC in PvP alongside WHM Imp so I can see why they changed it :p

Oh no, the ranged job providing constant damage up to their party, having a purify-esque barrier, having access to a backstep bind and being able to massively shift LB economy with their own LB got their 3s 25y Silence nerfed, oh the misery.

Having a 3s Silence you can fire from your living room sofa was simply too much, a Paladin has to at least go into melee range range for their stun. Id have settled for either a range nerf or duration nerf, but it got both I guess.

The ability is still really good. Just that you can't use it like an ICBM.

I'm quite displeased about the range nerf on Silent Nocturne.

"All" other Bard actions having range of 25y, Powerful Shot getting damage boost if you keep distance. And then I'd need to get up close and personal if I'd want to use low duration Silence.

~This is from Frontline perspective.

At the very least they should remove the less damage at closer range part indeed, nerfing both range and duration was about as good a change as buffing dragoon again.

Its basically neutered their only reliable burst combo making them even more reliant on teammates in a mode that forces you to solo queue.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Oh no, the ranged job providing constant damage up to their party, having a purify-esque barrier, having access to a backstep bind and being able to massively shift LB economy with their own LB got their 3s 25y Silence nerfed, oh the misery.

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I don’t think you understand the implications of the nerf other than at face value. Duration and damage nerf? That’s cool, I get it.

Range nerf, hell nah. Because now in order for you to successfully burst down a target (without having to rely on your teammates aka when you feel like playing casual), you need to get in close where even poor players can automatically swap to you, forcing you to guard, or backstep, purify, etc. So instead of using the toolkit at their disposal for various situations, bards now have to use their entire toolkit just to burst:

Instead of using paean on tank, melee - you have to use it on yourself to make sure you can finish your burst without getting CC’d or bursted down more easily due to being in closer range.

Save backstep for a dangerous melee or to secure a kill? Nope, now you have to use backstep to make sure that your perfect pitch can hit max dmg (8000) due to everyone constantly closing/opening you.

Replenish your emp arrow with powerful shot? Nope, now in order to help your teammates secure a kill, you have to get in close resulting in more dmg taken, resulting in more time used to elixir/avoid getting obliterated which in turn results in lower overall dmg output.

If they make it so that powerful shot does max dmg regardless of range, it could possibly offset the nocturne range nerf. Powerful shot does max dmg at 15y but it has a range of 25y.

Basically, bard’s toolkit synergy is what really got nerfed.

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Originally Posted by Nanne

It was the best CC in PvP alongside WHM Imp so I can see why they changed it :p

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WHM imp couldn’t be purified and could only be prevented by pre-guarding. And I think all they changed was the cast range?

BRD silence can be removed or prevented multiple ways. And they took away damage, range AND duration.

Kinda lopsided.

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Originally Posted by Nubrication

I don’t think you understand the implications of the nerf other than at face value. Duration and damage nerf? That’s cool, I get it.

Range nerf, hell nah. Because now in order for you to successfully burst down a target (without having to rely on your teammates aka when you feel like playing casual), you need to get in close where even poor players can automatically swap to you, forcing you to guard, or backstep, purify, etc. So instead of using the toolkit at their disposal for various situations, bards now have to use their entire toolkit just to burst:

Instead of using paean on tank, melee - you have to use it on yourself to make sure you can finish your burst without getting CC’d or bursted down more easily due to being in closer range.

Save backstep for a dangerous melee or to secure a kill? Nope, now you have to use backstep to make sure that your perfect pitch can hit max dmg (8000) due to everyone constantly closing/opening you.

Replenish your emp arrow with powerful shot? Nope, now in order to help your teammates secure a kill, you have to get in close resulting in more dmg taken, resulting in more time used to elixir/avoid getting obliterated which in turn results in lower overall dmg output.

If they make it so that powerful shot does max dmg regardless of range, it could possibly offset the nocturne range nerf. Powerful shot does max dmg at 15y but it has a range of 25y.

Basically, bard’s toolkit synergy is what really got nerfed.

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I very much do understand the implications this entails, I simply do not believe BRD to be so down the gutter as everyone here seems to believe.

While I can totally see the compromise and general issue with the reduced Nocturne range down to 15y, I feel like it is still very playable - as you said, PS/Pitch reaches max damage at 15y, which is Nocturne's range. So in a situation where you don't get attacked, you can do something like Burst Arrow > move in and Nocturne > move out then Pitch. And in situations you may need to peel with the backstep it will reposition you for that.

What Im trying to say is BRD now similar to DNC is bobbing back and forth, but with other strengths such as access to CC, AOE buffs and an additional defensive party utility.

I find the CC range fair. What I will rather suggest is potency increases or narrowing the scaling for PS/Pitch or other compensation.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

I very much do understand the implications this entails, I simply do not believe BRD to be so down the gutter as everyone here seems to believe.

While I can totally see the compromise and general issue with the reduced Nocturne range down to 15y, I feel like it is still very playable - as you said, PS/Pitch reaches max damage at 15y, which is Nocturne's range. So in a situation where you don't get attacked, you can do something like Burst Arrow > move in and Nocturne > move out then Pitch. And in situations you may need to peel with the backstep it will reposition you for that.

What Im trying to say is BRD now similar to DNC is bobbing back and forth, but with other strengths such as access to CC, AOE buffs and an additional defensive party utility.

I find the CC range fair. What I will rather suggest is potency increases or narrowing the scaling for PS/Pitch or other compensation.

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Bard is specifically designed to fight from afar. It is NOT equitable with DNC in having to bop back and forth. DNC has extra DR to account for having to play closer than other range; BRD was not given this. DNC has extra mitigation and self-healing to survive fighting closer; BRD was not given this. DNC does not suffer a reduction in damage output for fighting closer; BRD does. Even worse, using Silent Nocturne was part of BRD's burst initiation by proc'ing Pitch Perfect. Now, BRD has a reduction in ability to proc Pitch Perfect, which is an 8000 potency loss. Now, that can only be reliably proc'ed by Warden's Paean. What other class has had an 8000 potency nerf? Plus, the elimination of the damage from Silent Nocturne, which is an additional 2000 potency loss that we used to use in our burst. So, a 10000 potency loss of burst ability? Did a class already struggling to do damage really need an additional 10000 potency loss? Also, part of using Silent Nocturne was to help secure kills; now that bit of support capacity has been taken from bard without bard getting into mortal danger.

Essentially, bard is reduced to mostly being a totem in the back line, providing little participation in the battle. I don’t think SE understood at all how bard works. You can’t design a class to inherently fight from far away and then shackle it to fighting close. Those are conflicting design choices which can only result in an underperforming class. BRD does NOT fight at 15 yalms or less. Its damage is reduced (something no other class suffers from) and it has no survivability at such a range (again, a property no other class suffers from). If they wanted to reduce Silent Nocturne's range, 20 yalms would have been a better compromise, not 15.

This skill is the cornerstone of the job. Doing one nerf is one thing, but doing a triple nerf on such a key, core component that literally makes or break the job, is beyond words. You really need to have an aggravated problem to resort not to a DOUBLE, but TRIPLE nerf. That's just massive.

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Originally Posted by Valence

This skill is the cornerstone of the job. Doing one nerf is one thing, but doing a triple nerf on such a key, core component that literally makes or break the job, is beyond words. You really need to have an aggravated problem to resort not to a DOUBLE, but TRIPLE nerf. That's just massive.

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Ya, a ranged nerf would have sucked, but I could have adapted to it. Potency nerf, fine whatever. A duration nerf would have been the most tolerable and easiest to deal with....All 3 at the same time though is just a wtf scenario. Who was complaining about BRD to begin with?

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Originally Posted by DioK

Bard is specifically designed to fight from afar. It is NOT equitable with DNC in having to bop back and forth. DNC has extra DR to account for having to play closer than other range; BRD was not given this. DNC has extra mitigation and self-healing to survive fighting closer; BRD was not given this. DNC does not suffer a reduction in damage output for fighting closer; BRD does. Even worse, using Silent Nocturne was part of BRD's burst initiation by proc'ing Pitch Perfect. Now, BRD has a reduction in ability to proc Pitch Perfect, which is an 8000 potency loss. Now, that can only be reliably proc'ed by Warden's Paean. What other class has had an 8000 potency nerf? Plus, the elimination of the damage from Silent Nocturne, which is an additional 2000 potency loss that we used to use in our burst. So, a 10000 potency loss of burst ability? Did a class already struggling to do damage really need an additional 10000 potency loss? Also, part of using Silent Nocturne was to help secure kills; now that bit of support capacity has been taken from bard without bard getting into mortal danger.

Essentially, bard is reduced to mostly being a totem in the back line, providing little participation in the battle. I don’t think SE understood at all how bard works. You can’t design a class to inherently fight from far away and then shackle it to fighting close. Those are conflicting design choices which can only result in an underperforming class. BRD does NOT fight at 15 yalms or less. Its damage is reduced (something no other class suffers from) and it has no survivability at such a range (again, a property no other class suffers from). If they wanted to reduce Silent Nocturne's range, 20 yalms would have been a better compromise, not 15.

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This exactly! You explained it far better than I did.

This nerf is legitimately frustrating.... It's making me not want to pvp.

Pouring one out for Bard. Why did SE do this to one of my favorite classes? :(

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Originally Posted by Ransu

This nerf is legitimately frustrating.... It's making me not want to pvp.

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What a shame for the 1 job out of 20 doesn't play as well as the rest. Buh bye.

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Originally Posted by Archeron

What a shame for the 1 job out of 20 doesn't play as well as the rest. Buh bye.

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Yes, the job I enjoyed the most and pushed to crystal in 3 different seasons while being one of the weakest jobs in the game is now frustrating to play is indeed a shame. There was zero reason for this over nerf.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

This nerf is legitimately frustrating.... It's making me not want to pvp.

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Yep, Squenix wants us to use bard mid-range now which is why they buffed apex, repelling shot and paean. They only forgot the “minor” details of how bard’s burst works, how pitch perfect works and how powerful shot works. They probably think we can survive mid range because we have a backstep and a 30 sec CD that last only 10 secs which needs to actually remove or prevent something to take effect. It’s almost as if they think people don’t focus bards in the first place.

I play bard a lot and have done for a while now so bit disappointed at the new changes. I do not like close combat even in PVE I always play ranged. I loved Dancer but it feels off in pvp and this kind of reminds me of that.

No, that nocturne nerf was needed. It was constant abused and they could constantly hit you from Narnia, while also doing damage with it? Too much, you have no idea how many bards were so over reliant on that ability.

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Originally Posted by Elucesta

No, that nocturne nerf was needed. It was constant abused and they could constantly hit you from Narnia, while also doing damage with it? Too much, you have no idea how many bards were so over reliant on that ability.

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Let me guess, you play ranged jobs?

The range nerf was overkill. Otherwise I'm fine with BRD leaning more into sustained damage than burst, I think it compliments its long duration team buffs

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Originally Posted by Luluna

I play bard a lot and have done for a while now so bit disappointed at the new changes. I do not like close combat even in PVE I always play ranged. I loved Dancer but it feels off in pvp and this kind of reminds me of that.

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DNC is not meant to be played at far range in PVP. It’s meant to be played in melee/mid-range AND it’s toolkit (weaponskills/abilities/LB) supports it.

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Originally Posted by Elucesta

No, that nocturne nerf was needed. It was constant abused and they could constantly hit you from Narnia, while also doing damage with it? Too much, you have no idea how many bards were so over reliant on that ability.

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How is it abused when their entire burst relies on it? Without it, they basically just do damage that can easily be recuperated from. You think Bard’s burst does massive damage? Bard’s burst is not a 1 button wonder, it’s initiated by silence and then emp arrow and pp - that’s plenty of time to purify and recuperate if you’re a good player (meaning you’re not oblivious). Emp arrow at max stacks by itself does a whopping 12000 dmg unbuffed by apex. Compare that to any other dps class support or not. Even healers have a higher dmg output.

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Originally Posted by Nubrication

DNC is not meant to be played at far range in PVP. It’s meant to be played in melee/mid-range AND it’s toolkit (weaponskills/abilities/LB) supports it.

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Yeh I haven't really played much of DNC in there tbh. On the odd occasion I have seen some really good Dancers in there and I wonder how they get the high numbers and watch in awe lol!

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Originally Posted by Elucesta

No, that nocturne nerf was needed. It was constant abused and they could constantly hit you from Narnia, while also doing damage with it? Too much, you have no idea how many bards were so over reliant on that ability.

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Then here's a little thing that you may not have realized, and I can site evidence for it directly from the job guide (https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/jobguide/redmage/#pvp). Red mage has an ability (Resolution) that, if they go into white stance, also does a silence, and it's EVEN WORSE! It has the same 20 second cooldown time as Silent Nocturne, does 8000 potency damage (compared to Silent Nocturne's 2000) to everyone in a line (compared to Silent Nocturne's single target) for 25 yalms, with a 25 yalm target range. That skill is unchanged, even though it's a far more damaging and potent skill. That same skill, alternatively, can do a bind effect in the same manner if the red mage is in black stance.

Now why did you see bard using its silence skill more than red mage using the silence version of their skill? For bard, Silent Nocturne was absolutely necessary to initiate burst and have a chance to secure the kill. Red mage does not need its silence skill for such, as it has more options. Further, the bind effect was more useful to red mage and the red mage's team to lock targets in place to allow the red mage and its team to gap-close on the targets and burst them down. For the red mage, it's useful (that is, a play option); for the bard, it's necessary (you don’t have a choice but to use it, if you want to be anything other than just a 10% damage buff totem).

Bard was designed, fundamentally, to play from a far distance. That fundamental design has not changed; however now, the class is being shackled to play close to be an effective participant in the battle (i.e., not be just a buff totem). Coupled with the fact the class is not given survivability to play in close (the way DNC was eventually modified), and the class now suffers from conflicting design priorities, which means neither priority will be satisfied for the vast majority of the time, leading to a highly underperforming class (which bard already, inherently, struggled to match damage of other classes because it's most powerful single attack is conditioned on building it up and, yet, is from 4000 to 24000 potency less than equivalent attacks for other classes). Under the current patch, bard, in order to have the same effectiveness it did prior, MUST play EXACTLY on the 15 yalm circle, no closer and no farther. If you play close, your skills lose damage because an inherent range-based damage drop-off. If you play far, you lose damage cause your getting Pitch Perfect (an 8000 potency skill) only half the time, because you lost the Silent Nocturne initiation. It's only exactly on that 15 yalm circle do you not suffer any damage losses (what other class in PvP is inherently designed to lose damage due to battle situation; bard is already a low damage class, yet, it is inherently designed to lose damage based on battle situations). But then, bard runs into the problem that any bard playing at 15 yalms or less, due to lacking survivability, is generally quickly dead and serves no purpose other than to provide the enemy team with battle-high.

The change was poorly thought out and shows that SE does not understand, at all, the class they designed.

I still play bard in PvP, because I’m just that much a die-hard bard player. It's what I like to play and what I have fun with. I even played bard back when we had the walking bug from using Powerful Shot after Apex Arrow (bard was the ONLY class that had that issue). However, let me tell you, bard is nowhere near as effective. I've gone from getting 7, 8, even as many as 12 kills, regularly, in a match to struggling just to eke out even 1-2 kills. I've gone from pushing out 800k+ damage over the match to struggling to achieve 300-400k. I think anyone who plays bard regularly in PvP can feel it, the struggle, now, to make the class work and be effective as something more than just a team totem. But, I’ll still play it, despite the frustration, cause bard is what I like to play.

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Originally Posted by flowerfairy

The range nerf was overkill. Otherwise I'm fine with BRD leaning more into sustained damage than burst, I think it compliments its long duration team buffs

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Except CC is designed around burst... Sustained damage is nearly worthless in a mode that's usually over in less than 2 minutes.

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Originally Posted by Luluna

Yeh I haven't really played much of DNC in there tbh. On the odd occasion I have seen some really good Dancers in there and I wonder how they get the high numbers and watch in awe lol!

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Here are some free tips that’ll make your dmg output astronomically better if you decide to use DNC. *In regards to CC

1. Closed Position with your tank or melee. My usual dance partner priority is a good player that I recognize > melee carry or tank > healer that is good at pushing crystal. I do it in this order because that’s the order of who is probably going to be fighting at or near the crystal, letting me capitalize on my DNC toolkit while also fighting near objective. I almost never dance partner with a ranged dps unless they are a good player.

2. Never be the first to go in because you are still squishy without buffs.

3. Make sure that you use fan dance before you go in for honing dance (after fan dance - go in for honing dance). This gives you a total of -35% damage taken. Increasing your survivability at melee range.

There are definitely waaaay more caveats, more weaponskills/abilities involved and situational aspects but in general, you’ll notice that you’ll be harder to kill and deal more damage.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Sustained damage is nearly worthless in a mode that's usually over in less than 2 minutes.

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If that was true, maybe SCH wouldn’t have gotten nerfed :D

BRD still has a lot for it going on… Like I said, the range nerf was overkill, but the silence is still there which is the most important part of the burst. The 2k potency was ticklish at best.

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Originally Posted by flowerfairy

If that was true, maybe SCH wouldn’t have gotten nerfed :D

BRD still has a lot for it going on… Like I said, the range nerf was overkill, but the silence is still there which is the most important part of the burst. The 2k potency was ticklish at best.

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You're forced to use repelling shot in your burst now. So they are forced to go into melee range and then forced to use their escape in a scenario that normally wouldn't be necessary. It's just a bad change all around. Remove the potency and reduce the duration, but they should have never nerfed its range.

And the burst meta is true. Sustain just isn't good in such a fast pace mode. The mode itself is short on top of things like recuperate being a thing. Its why using fire on BLM is nine times out of ten a dumb thing to do because burst/cc is way more important and since fire and ice do the same base damage, the "sustained" damage from the dot from fire is completely worthless.

I can't really comment on SCH burst as I don't play it, but their shield's are super annoying lol.

Anyone here who thinks this nerf was needed literally is biased AGAINST bard.

I don't even play bard, but this shit was inane.

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Originally Posted by Nikoto

Anyone here who thinks this nerf was needed literally is biased AGAINST bard.

I don't even play bard, but this shit was inane.

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Yep, I’m not even a bard main in pvp, I occasionally play bard and noticed the difference right away. It’s like night and day. It definitely seems like the people saying it was OP and needed a nerf were melee mains. The best way to counter a really good mnk, sam, drg? It was BRD. RIP to all the music lovers out there. Watch out for those meteodives, drg lb and sam bursts cause now all the bards are in range to explode from 100hp to zero.

This nerf came out of the left field, and their vague explanation located on the 6.4 PvP Guide doesn't hold water:

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Silent Nocturne is an incredibly effective tool to deal burst damage to enemies in conjunction with attacks from teammates. Because of the difficulty in countering this ability, however, we believe it required significant adjustments. We've reduced its range to both force tougher decisions in choosing targets, and increase risk in its execution. This should also give opponents a better chance at potentially dealing with the attack. To compensate for this, the potency of Apex Arrow and Repelling Shot has been increased, improving bard's area of effect and close-range damage potential.

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Many jobs have incredibly effective tools to deal burst damage. Also, other jobs have difficult abilities to counter. We don't see any of those getting significant adjustments. There were other ways to tone down Silent Nocturne without completely gutting the ability. The range nerf is the most egregious part of this change. Silence effect too long? Fine, bring it in line with RDM's 2s Silence duration. It's burst potential is too high with Pitch Perfect attached? Whatever, remove the Pitch Prefect proc from Nocturne and put it on Blast Arrow instead. The nerf to it no longer doing damage is just petty. I'm sorry that they thought 2000 dmg was a deal-breaker.

But don't try to peddle B.S. when RDM's line AoE Silence Resolution is untouched at 25y on a job that actively has to get into close range to function properly and has no penalties on the range of their ranged skills. How will players counter such a difficult ability? Nobody knows, but I guess they'll have to find a way, but in the mean time BRD's single-target 25y Silence range needs to be nerfed. It's ridiculous, BRD's filler attack requires them to be at 15y or further from the target for max damage; they clearly designed BRD to try to keep its distance, but it has to move-in to exactly 15y or closer if it wants to use its only good burst window? But RDM gets to keep it's long range (and damage) on their Silence despite being better equipped to stay in close-quarters? lol If they have to be closer than RDM, they should have at least kept their 3s Silence.

To be honest, the whole things stinks of whoever is in charge of PvP balance getting bullied by a good BRD player one too many times in CC and deciding that BRD shouldn't be allowed to secure kills at a range anymore the way other ranged jobs still can as a salty kneejerk reaction.

Their reasoning on range is stupid. Melee players that get the brunt of 90% of the CC in any game, will never see a difference because they'll still be at range of the bard anyway (that will be a lot more vulnerable from it though). Ranged players that used to be affected by nocturne from time to time, one of the only CCs you ever get to deal with unless you go melee, are finally free from being silence ever again. This kind of nerf is completely counterproductive and the best way to miss the mark period.

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Originally Posted by Luluna

Yeh I haven't really played much of DNC in there tbh. On the odd occasion I have seen some really good Dancers in there and I wonder how they get the high numbers and watch in awe lol!

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It's a job that needs a very specific mindset to play. You need to abuse and literally spamm your dashes all around, not only to get your procs, but for survivability. Only counting on Fan Dance and Honing Dance for damage mitigation is foolish. As DNC you should almost always be using procs and Sabre Dance more than the regular attacks. You need to work on your dashes so you don't suicide into the enemy, but otherwise they actually make you so annoying to catch and kill that it makes it the most slippery job by far (more than Nin, or even Mnk/Blm). Obviously you're still weaker than a melee so it's more punishing. If anything DNC is still stringent on the range you keep with enemies because it's still a ranged job. You don't want to go to melee range unless you have a safe window for Honing (Honing is a noob death trap if you're too trigger happy with it). You'll always ideally be dashing around just behind your own melees, not with them.

The high AoE the job is capable of outputting is just tied to almost every skill it has being a good AoE move, among them Sabre Dance and Starfall which are great at bursting people yes, but also used exactly like BLM under LB, meaning on the main blob of enemies.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

And the burst meta is true. Sustain just isn't good in such a fast pace mode. The mode itself is short on top of things like recuperate being a thing. Its why using fire on BLM is nine times out of ten a dumb thing to do because burst/cc is way more important and since fire and ice do the same base damage, the "sustained" damage from the dot from fire is completely worthless.

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I agree with the statement, although I'd say I still use fire on BLM during LB, half fire then superflare on an enemy blob before finishing with half stacks on ice while they're burning. If we're losing or there is not an enemy concentration making it worth it though, yeah I'll go full ice for sure. I do believe the fire dot is only worthwhile if spread over many players, because it really, really burns their resources down just recuperating and healing, and that passive is pretty powerful on its own.

Thanks for those that replied with tips for Dancer it is much appreciated ^^