Definitions:
Mitigation (mit) - Reduces Damage
Nullification (Shield) - Absorbs Damage
Game Mechanics:
- Mitigation can reduce the amount of damage shields need to absorb.
- Damage over Time (DOT) - Damage is calculated on the initial application of affliction.
- Damage over Time due to the way it is calculated on the initial application can be mitigated on the initial impact,
Giving mitigation for the full duration of the DOT regardless of mitigation buffs lasting that long.
(Many do not understand the difference I had to define/explain)
Why Scholar is awful in its current state:
Discourages the use of mitigation (Sacred Soil 10% mit - Cost: 1 Aetherflow)
Encourages the use of Damage (Energy Drain 100 Potancy oGCD - cost 1 Aetherflow)
Sacred Soil can only be applied in situations raid groups can stack or stay relatively close together, discouraging the usage additionally.
(Sage has Kerachole 10% Mit, 15 sec Buff, 30 Sec cool down, gives mana 7% - Encouraging usage - doesn't cost damage - does not require strict group placement)
Temporary / Easy Fix:
Fey Illumination / Seraphic Illumination
- (Physical & Magic) 10% mitigation
- Reduce Cool Down to 60 sec
(Sage has 60s Cool down on Physis II, why is Fey Illumination different? along with doing less)
Expedient
- Reduce Mitigation to 5% (To Counter balance)
- 50 or 100 potency Heal over time
Over the course of a Savage/Ult fight, the lack of mitigation compared to Sage is significant, forcing healers and DPS to heal more in comparison.
Optimized coordinated groups do fine with Scholar.
However, in party finder or lack of coordination to the same degree, it is far more obvious scholar needs help.
Long Term:
Give healers damage buttons, They are boring and unsatisfying to play!
Edit: Was 6% MP Kerachole -> Changed to 7%.
Scholar Please Fix
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04-09-2023, 07:20 PMdeston07Scholar Please Fix
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04-10-2023, 12:18 AMfulminating
What are you talking about? Sacred soil is scholar's best ability bar none, it is already superior to kerasoil because it gets an extra server tick of mitigation and the heal over time. Moreover aetherflow (20%mp restore every minute) encourages better play than it's/all/greek/to/me restoring 7%mp on cast, with 3 possible casts per minute as you're not burning resources just to not run dry.
Sage was already buffed because it simply did not have the mitigation output of scholar in DSR so they stapled a shield onto holos. -
04-10-2023, 04:17 AMForsakenRoe
Comparing the 2min mitigation+healboost Fey Illumination to 'its a regen' Physis, instead of 'its a mitigation and shield' 2min Holos, is definitely a take, Physis is Whispering Dawn, both 60s, Physis lasts less time but ticks are stronger
Unless you're comparing them because 'they both have a heal boost' but that's kinda... I don't think people use Fey Illumination for the healing boost do they -
04-10-2023, 01:14 PMNobleWinter
Lmao I use the heal boost from Fey Illumination but I mostly run dungeons so it tends to be the button I press before Dissipation to power thru the end of large pulls when the tanks cooldowns have run dry and I'm forced to hardcast a few Adlo's
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04-10-2023, 02:18 PMRein_eon_OsborneIf possible to take advantage of? Yes. One of the few examples I could think that I personally do was to drop it during heavy movement phases like Purgation phase in P7s & 4 vents in P8s p1. It helps my co-WHM’s Raptures juust slightly & sometimes my own Spreadlo when its use coincides. In a way, I think of Illumination as my co-WHM’s cooldown more than my own so if they want it at specific phases I’d try to comply because Raptures is one of the larger bulk of their healing portion & I don’t think any other healer GCD heals as much as they do to take advantage of that healing boost.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
Otherwise, I usually prioritize its mitigation… or for funzies? Drop them at the butt end of trash pulls in dungeon so I can have fatter Adlo on tank & myself. Runs to next pull, wait for the adlo on tank diminishes, then spread the adlo from myself so the tank have another layer of shield. Bonus point if one of those Adlo crits + if it’s also paired with Dissipation! -
04-10-2023, 05:26 PMdeston07Sadly yes..Quote:
Originally Posted by fulminating
You still have to be under soil to get the benefit, while many of Abyssos attacks require groups to spread further than Soil can reach, for a longer duration than 1 server tick.
There are quite a few non-savage fights that require spreading further than soil can reach.
Many Scholars limit soil usage to save Aetherflow,
for more Energy drain usage.
while
Sage has no reason to really limit Kerachole usage.
7 Addersgall per 2 min, giving 4 usages of Kerachole + 3 more Addersgall for what ever you like every 2 min.
Why would sage want to hold on to addersgall? There is almost no punishment for over use of kerachole.
Big Hit? Physis II + Kerachole generally solves it.
The consistent 10% mit + HOT make both heals life significantly easier.
Savage and Ultimate are practically the only content that require Scholars to actually know how to resource manage. so most scholars do not know how to resource manage.
(SCH) Fey Illumination - (120 CD) Increases healing magic potency of all nearby party members by 10%, while reducing magic damage taken by all nearby party members by 5%Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
(Only Magic Healing / Mitigation)
(Sage) Physis II - (60 CD) Gradually restores own HP and the HP of all nearby party members. Cure Potency: 130
Additional Effect: Increases HP recovered by healing actions by 10%
(works for magic and physical actions)
Expedient is more comparable to Holos than Fey Illumination. -
04-10-2023, 10:24 PMfulminatingMany Dark knights and gunbreakers don't mitigate during their burst because they're out of weave slots. I don't really see a solid argument for change based around people deliberately shooting themselves in the feet.Quote:
Originally Posted by deston07
The counterpart to fey illumination is very probably holos, particularly considering that the shield was stapled on. On 6.0's launch they were both 120s CD 10% mit, with the slight difference that fey illumination gave a healing boost at the cost of not affecting those uncommon physical raidwides. I think that would be dominion 1 and dominion 2 ? - nothing else springs to mind. -
04-11-2023, 12:53 AMElucesta
Scholar doesn't need everything sage does. God forbid we have some differences in healers lol, sage has all of that mitigation because its a mitigation/regen healer. Its shields are weak, scholar has potent shields/regens. The both have their strengths and weaknesses, if you want more mitigation play sage. I'm just against 1 class having something just because the other class has it. Its seem like a take thats based on fear of exclusion imo
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04-11-2023, 12:59 AMElucesta
And scholar is not awful in its current state btw. Its a very powerful and viable class. Its just a bit slower paced and requires more thinking. I feel this post was a tad hyperbolic. Not trying to come down on you at all, so I apologize if it seems that way. But personally I think both healers are fine as is. I really recommend you play sage of you genuinely feel this way though
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04-11-2023, 04:32 AMOsmondI main SCH, it’s fine. I thought I was bad before the expansion launch, oh boy I was wrong lol. It was busted, especially Expedient. Holy moly that ability was strong. SCH is just about pre-planning your abilities before something goes off so if a player is bad at SCH and demand massive changes, then that problem falls on you bud. There’s a reason why SE barely touch SCH. Each expansion, SCH was just strong. Even many nerfs, SCH was still strong.Quote:
Originally Posted by deston07
Again with the same argument. It’s getting old, we’re not getting more DPS buttons, it’s not going to happen. I would rather give SCH more DPS buffs other than chain stratagem than more oGCD/DPS tools. Would rather give that to SGE instead. So if you want more DPS, SGE is there, PLAY IT! -
04-11-2023, 04:37 AMNizziDPS buffs are boring, and SCH had more DPS buttons in the past than SGE has now. It's more of SCH identity than SGE's. If you want more DPS buffs, AST is there, PLAY IT!Quote:
Originally Posted by Osmond
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04-11-2023, 04:50 AMOsmondSee! He gets it!Quote:
Originally Posted by Nizzi
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04-11-2023, 05:19 AMForsakenRoeFirstly, saying 'SGE is a mitigation/regen healer' when SE split the healers into Pure and Barrier, means that the split is a failure designwise. We all knew that though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elucesta
But besides that, Succor is 200p, 160% shield (total of 320p shielding), E.Prognosis is 100p, 320% shield (so, again 320p). Similarly, both Adlo and E.Diagnosis are 300/180%, (540p total shield), with the 'if you crit you apply a second copy of the shield'. The only real 'stronger shields' argument that can be made is Deployment Tactics, but you can kinda mimic that by using Zoe on E.Prognosis (bumping it to 150/320%, totalling 480p). I guess you can purposely hold Recitation for a crit Adlo, but then you deprive yourself of eg Recit-Indom. Meanwhile for OGCD shielding options, SCH has Consolation (2x200p) and... oh, that's it actually, huh weird. SGE has Holos (300p), Haima (5x300p, ST), Panhaima (5x200p, AOE). If you think SGE doesn't have 'strong shields', you can make up for it by the fact it has twice as many OGCD shield options to use for AOE
And what 'potent regens' does SCH have that SGE doesn't? W.Dawn is 560 over it's duration, Physis is 650, in a shorter duration, and has the 10% heal boost. Meanwhile, Kera and Soil are both 100p per tick, for the same duration. Are we really going to nitpick and give the win to SCH because of the 'ground-effect instant tick' phenomenon? Or is it entirely down to Fey Union?
We do need the healers to feel different. But when the tools are so similar, the comparisons are blindingly easy to make on a tool-by-tool basis, and it seems SGE comes out slightly ahead on most things. At this point, SCH seems (to me at least) to have only one advantage: you can heal without being nearby, using the fairy skills. But that counts for very little when the other healer is usually forced to go to the side where 'you can't reach as SGE' so they can handle it. Like, wow, you can heal the opposite side in Ruby Light 5 as SCH but not as SGE. But it's not an issue, because your cohealer's over there anyway.
When the expansion was announced, and we got the info that we'd have the Pure/Barrier split, my first thought was something like this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Osmond
WHM - Burst healing
AST - HOT/delay focused healing
SCH - mitigates by buffing allies eg. Soil, Expedient, Eye4Eye, Fey Illumination
SGE - mitigates by debuffing enemies via attacks, eg Virus, Disable
Instead we got SCH 2: Slightly less jank edition. -
04-11-2023, 06:02 AMElucesta
Are you all seriously trying to do this? Basically trying to argue why one healer may have a tool another doesn't? SCH is fine, is a mountain made from a molehill, I used to main that class before I went to SGE. Both classes are good, SCH is still supreme with AST in comp for high end duties for a reason. Why is this a thing lol
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04-13-2023, 09:24 AMDeceptusBecause high end duties aren't the only thing that matters and for the sizeable chunk of players SGE is better than SCH in almost every conceivable way while completely negating the fairy clunkiness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elucesta
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04-13-2023, 01:22 PMOsmond
SCH is clearable and underestimated in high end duties. It just no one knows how to play the job so ppl demand changes when it doesn't need to. Only thing SCH needs is an adjustment on certain abilities.....well another addon of a existing ability and it doesn't really need much.
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04-13-2023, 10:08 PMDeceptusPeople know how to play scholar, especially after it has been dumbed down. It's not some extremely technical healer job that is more complicated than the other 3. In higher end content, most healers have their abilities planned out to the fight, SCH is no different.Quote:
Originally Posted by Osmond
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04-14-2023, 03:56 AMOsmondThat’s natural after many wipes. Seeing the comparison between SCH & SGE. I can see why ppl favor SGE due to an easier learning curve……..and it’s too forgiving.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deceptus
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04-17-2023, 09:03 AMDeceptusIt's less of a learning curve and more of SGE has everything (sans expedient) that SCH has without the clunkiness of the fairy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Osmond
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04-18-2023, 10:33 AMIceBlueNinjaWatch out there friend you dont wanna get the angry schs main torches throw at you(but agreed with you 100%) I give big shields as a sge np. so this whole sch shield stronger thing is lol, i tested both and barely does crit spread alco win vs a holos+zoe progronis combo and isnt from what I saw in a post whm/sage is the best combosQuote:
Originally Posted by Deceptus
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04-18-2023, 10:35 AMIceBlueNinjaHey eve didnt know you was here too my friend :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Elucesta
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04-18-2023, 08:57 PMOsmondIt’s truly person preference. I play both SCH & SGE, both are fine, both has their pros and cons. Yet………..it makes me think at times. Where ppl cry for the challenge, but never want the challenge lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by IceBlueNinja
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04-19-2023, 07:29 AMIceBlueNinjaYou hit the nail right on the hammer because I asked that before, people want challenges and its technically there but its bashed xD, aint it good that noct ast shields/sge shields are weaker(though they was not to me) :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Osmond
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04-19-2023, 01:52 PMForsakenRoe
idk I play SGE in dungeons and it's pretty boring to me, didn't need to use a single GCD heal, etc. I get told 'you want challenge go play AST' so I do, same story, no GCD heals needed, I get told 'you want challenge go do hard content', at what point do we stop moving the goalposts and admit that, if you have any amount of skill, the more casual content (which makes up the vast majority of content) is really quite boring? Before I get hit with any 'you don't actually want to be challenged' rubbish don't worry, I've done my time as 'AST progging week 1 Savage', it gave me pretty bad wrist pain for several days after I had swapped to SGE/WHM. It doesn't change the fact that I detest doing EX roulettes because they make me feel so un-needed, so 'I am griefing because the healing required is so low, I could handle it by using phoenix as SMN, and the extra damage would let us clear faster'
And what challenge does SCH have that SGE doesn't? The fact that if you press W.Dawn with 2 sec or less on the Seraph clock, it just ghosts, and you lose access to one of your best healing tools? The fact that Dissipation removes access to part of your kit for 30 seconds? The fact that Sacred Soil requires everyone to stand in a certain location (the size of said location has been almost doubled in radius since it's introduction in ARR)? Or the 'deep optimization' of being able to spend spare Aetherflows on Energy Drain, a damage skill that has, over the course of the game, been repeatedly removed, returned, and then nerfed in potency to the point where it's almost irrelevant (chances are they'll remove it in 7.0 launch, and hastily return it because of player outcry) -
04-19-2023, 05:47 PMNobleWinter
The fact Energy Drain has been removed twice from Scholar's Kit with zero effort to balance the class without it both times always makes me chuckle. If it was button bloat they could have merged Aetherflow and Energy Drain so that you used Energy Drain as long as charges where available and Aetherflow when you ran out. That seems simple enough. If they didn't want us to use it for damage then nerfing the potency didn't really solve the problem. It's still extra damage. The only time time they ever made a positive change to Aetherflow was Stormblood when we got the Quickened Aetherflow Trait to actually reward people who used the charges aggressively. Of course that got removed because of mysterious reasons. Scholar can never be too fun play. It had to have all it's DPS skills, Selene as separate entity, Energy Drain, and Quickened Aetherflow Trait removed to be ready for Shadowbringers. Literally the worst level up I have ever seen. Just tragic í ½í¸