Pro/Con Discussion: What if Holy was like Cure 3?

That is, for those who don't know, Cure 3 can be used one of two ways.

If cast with no target, it is centered on the WHM.

If cast with a target, it is centered on that target.

I was thinking it would be nice of Holy worked that way where you could use it from range or use it where you are. This would make it distinct from Gravity (which is cast at range and has a shorter cast time but requires a target) and obviously from Art of War and Dyskrasia (which are both instant casts centered on the caster and...are basically identical...), not to mention Holy's Stun.

Just wondering if there are any downsides. If you don't have a hostile target (no target, yourself targeted, or a friendly player/NPC targeted), it would center the effect on the WHM and work just like it does now. If you had an enemy targeted, it would be used on them instead.

ASIDE: If Holy was ever to be worked into the single-target rotation (not my goal with this proposal, but just something that could happen with it later if it was something people wanted), then having it work this way would allow the WHM to be able to continue playing as a ranged caster as it does now. That is, you wouldn't have to run in to use Holy based on a proc or whatever, you could still use it from range like you do Glare and Dia.

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I dunno, was just a thought I had of "Could this be done...?", but then I realized "Wait, Cure 3 already works this way for friendlies, so...why not Holy?"

You do raise a fair point by bringing up cure 3, gravity, and toxikon. But having holy be targetable on enemies would make it pretty strong since it has a huge range and stuns. Personally I prefer it being centered around the user as it looks visually more pleasing.
I believe the main reason the devs made holy only cast from your character is a design choice. They probably want Holy to be an aura emitting ability and not a projectile/bomb that you fling onto your enemies like toxikon and gravity and the cast animations reflect that.

I think making the current Holy usable at range would make it less fun and interesting.

There are essentially no downsides to Gravity, Art of War, and Dyskrasia because either they're usable at-range or have no cast time. Holy, on the other hand, is a commitment to planting yourself near(-ish) to trash mobs, which is its own risk-reward mini-game, especially if the trash has become immune to Stun.

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The comparison to Cure 3 doesn't quite work. Cure 3 always targets a friendly, with the default target being yourself. Holy would become a damage-dealing spell that targets an enemy or a very specific friendly (namely, yourself), and whether it deals damage to the target itself would depend on the target. The tooltip would be a bit clunky.

I think it would be too close to Gravity personally.

If my target dies mid cast, I don't get my GCD cancelled. Having to shuffle and dance around under big mob packs is a fair price to pay for this and helps keep things interesting IMO.

Gravity is safer due to being able to be used without standing under the pack, but can be pretty annoying in especially wimpy trash packs where AoEs with a focused hit on a specific mob can KO some mobs much sooner than others.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

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Right, but that's what I mean by it being centered on the WHM as an option. For example, a lot of trash pulls now, I have the Tank targeted (in case I need to heal them) and spam Holy. Making Holy work this way would be essentially identical in that case.

It would also potentially allow for Holy to be made part of your single target rotation (e.g. DoT ticks have a chance of boosting Holy's damage to a primary target, if targeting an enemy), giving it a single-target/boss fight purpose as well that doesn't add any new buttons and so doesn't contribute to button bloat, but in AOE situations, it would have the same use case now, but be more flexible if you needed to use it at range. For example, it's almost impossible to use Holy with the trash packs in Euprhosine because of all the overlapping AOEs and that DF Tanks tend not to gather them well, so there's no safe way to use it (it's why every Healer that isn't an AST is often dead on the ground there or standing back just DoTting things, lol

So it could still be played exactly the same way (with the dodge minigame) by simply targeting yourself or the Tank/party member...

But I suppose if people like that dodgy minigame, that's fine. I just wasn't sure if there was any reason for it not to be changed, really.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

For example, it's almost impossible to use Holy with the trash packs in Euprhosine because of all the overlapping AOEs and that DF Tanks tend not to gather them well, so there's no safe way to use it (it's why every Healer that isn't an AST is often dead on the ground there or standing back just DoTting things, lol

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Challenge accepted =P Reset tomorrow, I'll try to remember to get a clip of how I holyspam there.

It's fine, you just need to have a good feel for it's reach (which is bigger than many realise).

I think you're missing my point as well. It doesn't matter if a spell can optionally be cast on me. If I'm casting it on a mob and that mob dies before the cast finishes, the spell won't go off and that's a pretty big DPS loss for Gravity over time if you're chewing through trash quickly. If that was something that could be addressed and changed then I would lift my objection for sure, but personally I'd still miss the risk/reward of Holy TBH.

I wouldn't mind getting something else like Aero 3 back to cast at a range but I like Holy as it is now. It would definitely be easier to target things from a distance but it wouldn't feel as epic.I think if anything gets addresses it needs to be how similar the aoe skills are Sage and Scholar. Phlegma should have been the spammable skill for Sage making them stay at a melee-ish range with Dysraksia being the short cooldown. That would at least have made the combat feel very different in dungeons.

I just want holy to have a 1.5s cast time so I can weave ogcds with it :(

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

I think you're missing my point as well. It doesn't matter if a spell can optionally be cast on me. If I'm casting it on a mob and that mob dies before the cast finishes, the spell won't go off and that's a pretty big DPS loss for Gravity over time if you're chewing through trash quickly. If that was something that could be addressed and changed then I would lift my objection for sure, but personally I'd still miss the risk/reward of Holy TBH.

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Right, but that's what I'm saying: If you target yourself/the Tank/a DPS and run into the pack and start casting Holy, the Holy would cast on you just like now. It wouldn't get interrupted unless you died, so it wouldn't be affected by if enemies die since it wouldn't be targeting an enemy.

In fact, this was one of the key considerations to my thinking of this idea. I do Hunt Trains a lot, and during REALLY busy times (even numbered patches, the first month or so of a new expansion), it becomes impossible to hit the thing. Sometimes the Marks don't even load in. So I'm a HUGE fan of untargeted AOEs. Run in, spam the AOE a time or two or three to make sure you've knicked the Mark, then spam AOE healing (Cure 3/Medica/Medica 2/etc) to get full contribution for your party. And having run AST some in dungeons, it is hella annoying when the target dies mid-cast (granted, that's true of even single target casts, but tends to happen less often since single target "big" enemies or bosses tend not to melt so quickly), which is why I thought that including the "self-target" option would be so important.

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Originally Posted by NobleWinter

I wouldn't mind getting something else like Aero 3 back to cast at a range but I like Holy as it is now. It would definitely be easier to target things from a distance but it wouldn't feel as epic.I think if anything gets addresses it needs to be how similar the aoe skills are Sage and Scholar. Phlegma should have been the spammable skill for Sage making them stay at a melee-ish range with Dysraksia being the short cooldown. That would at least have made the combat feel very different in dungeons.

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So should Aero 3 be a point blank cast centered on the WHM?

If it should be castable at range...why shouldn't Holy? (Not trying to be antagonistic, just curious how that would make sense...)

I do agree with Plegma, though. Dyskrasia being Art of War with a different visual is just such an odd design choice. Heck, they could have made Dyskrasia work like Cure 3 and been the target or self centered one. At least then it'd be...different.

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Originally Posted by Amenara

I just want holy to have a 1.5s cast time so I can weave ogcds with it :(

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Wouldn't that make it too much like Gravity?

What if like cure 3 it could only be cast on allies? That’d be distinct from gravity, but also versatile in its own way and there’s half a chance there won’t be a conga line of mobs leading to the tank from a particularly enthusiastic white mage

The stun from Holy feels like a divine consequence. Get too close to a WHM and you're forced to grovel at their feet. Aero 3 has no crowd control and since it's just mild damage over time it felt appropriate to be cast at a range. That's all head canon for me and has nothing to do with ease of execution or quality of life but it's why I don't mind Holy being centered on the player and Aero 3 being a ranged targeted cast. Misery is incredibly powerful but it has no stun so the same logic applies.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Wouldn't that make it too much like Gravity?

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I like it being an aoe centered on myself, I just want a faster cast time...