Thought Experiment on AoE Buttons

So, this is a topic that ultimately spans all roles, but I want to talk a bit about my thoughts on AoE buttons and gather opinions from others here on why or why not these are good ideas.

Simply put, I do not like having dedicated buttons that exist exclusively for the purposes of AoE and have no function in single target situations. A number of jobs have several buttons that are effectively dead buttons in the vast majority of meaningful encounters--buttons that exclusively exist for mowing down trash waves and FATE enemies and little else. I want to be clear that this doesn't mean I want no AoE at all, but rather than having a button like Xenoglossy, for example, that Foul's potency should just be increase to match Xenoglossy, and the damage on secondary targets can be adjusted to maintain a balanced overall AoE potency. But I want to extend this idea further to even standard GCD actions, and to do that, I want to give an example of a thought experiment I have regarding Dancer.

Now, Dancer is not a job starved for hotbar space, but it's the job I'm the most familiar with, and thus I want to share a simple concept on ways to fold its AoE exclusivity into its single target gamplay and ask some questions after. This is merely to get a greater understanding on how others feels about something like this, and perhaps gain some insight that I'm currently blind to. With that all said, here's what's on my mind:

Existing DNC actions for reference:

Cascade - Single target potency: 220
Additional: 50% chance to proc Reverse Cascade

Fountain - Single target potency: 100 | Cascade single target combo potency: 280
Additional: 50% chance to proc Fountainfall

Reverse Cascade - Single target potency: 280
Additional: 50% chance to proc fourfold feather

Fountainfall - Single target potency: 340
Additional: 50% chance to proc fourfold feather

Windmill - Point-blank AoE potency: 100
Additional: 50% chance to proc Rising Windmill

Bladeshower - Point-blank AoE potency: 100 | Windmill point-blank AoE combo potency: 140
Additional: 50% chance to proc Bloodshower

Rising Windmill - Point-blank AoE potency: 140
Additional: 50% chance to proc fourfold feather

Bloodshower - Point-blank AoE potency: 180
Additional: 50% chance to proc fourfold feather

Fan Dance - Single target potency: 150
Additional: 50% chance to proc Fan Dance III

Fan Dance II - Point-blank AoE potency: 100
Additional: 50% chance to proc Fan Dance III[/LIST]

Proposed DNC changes

Cascade - Single target potency: 220
Additional: 50% chance to proc Reverse Cascade
NO CHANGE

Fountain - Ranged AoE potency: 120 | Cascade ranged AoE combo potency: 280; deals 50% less to secondary enemies.
Additional: 50% chance to proc Fountainfall per enemy struck.

Reverse Cascade - Single target potency: 280
Additional: 50% chance to proc fourfold feather
NO CHANGE

Fountainfall - Ranged AoE potency: 340; deals 50% less to secondary enemies.
Additional: 50% chance to proc fourfold feather per enemy struck; only 1 fourfold feather can be gained per cast of Fountainfall.

Fan Dance - Single target potency: 130
Upgrades into Fan Dance II at level 50

Fan Dance II - Ranged AoE potency: 150; deals 30% less to secondary enemies.
Additional: 50% chance to proc Fan Dance III

Windmill - Removed
Bladeshower - Removed
Rising Windmill - Removed
Bloodshower - Removed

Concept Summary
In this experiment, DNC's current AoE rotation buttons are removed, and in their place, Fountain and Fountainfall are made AoE. Your single target rotation is completely unchanged. Your AoE rotation is more streamlined, but is also more consistent. This experiment comes with some pros and cons.
Pros:

• DNC frees up 5 spots on their hotbar for new actions
• AoE damage is more consistent
• Space gained from the removal of these actions could go to creating something more interesting for both single target and AoE.

Cons:

• DNC's AoE rotation is simplified
• There's no way to know if what replaces the lost actions would be more worthwhile

While on the topic of utilizing the newly freed up hotbar space, it's also possible that rather than removing the AoE actions, they could be reworked in some way. For example, Rising Windmill and Bloodshower could perhaps be an alternate 1-2 combo with some restrictions, offering an alternative set of tools to use regularly between bursts. For example, Rising Windmill might have a cooldown and cost Esprit, creating an alternate Esprit spender that combos into Bloodshower.

My question
I want to leave a final thought here with anyone who wants to jump in: do you like this concept? How would you feel if this approach was taken with every job provided that these adjustments do not have a negative impact on the gameplay rotation of those respective jobs? (i.e. any loss of depth on the AoE side is accounted for with any new actions added with some of the newly allotted hotbar space). Furthermore, if you specifically do not like this approach, why? What do you believe is lost even if the changes are accounted for in the revamping of these tools?

Hole-poking in the theorycraft: Deep Dungeons. I want to carefully pull mob X while not alerting mob Y. Now, the vast majority of XIV's content doesn't require that kind of care or finesse in a multi-target scenario, but it would largely delete the ability to carefully manage actually dangerous non-boss encounters.

Whether that's an acceptable loss is up to you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Hole-poking in the theorycraft: Deep Dungeons. I want to carefully pull mob X while not alerting mob Y. Now, the vast majority of XIV's content doesn't require that kind of care or finesse in a multi-target scenario, but it would largely delete the ability to carefully manage actually dangerous non-boss encounters.

Whether that's an acceptable loss is up to you.

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That's a fair point, and I do engage with deep dungeons myself. In this take, you could still use Cascade though and pull the mob to the hallway. There are some potentially tight situations, but as long as not literally every button is consequently AoE, it's not an unavoidable circumstance. And Dancer already has to be mindful of its steps far more than what would likely be like an 8 yalm AoE max.

I think it might be a smidge more productive to discuss the issue in vacuum rather than with specific actions that strike as a proposal. But it may depend on what you're trying to say here. If talking about "every job", getting lost in the weeds of DNC specifics may not be as helpful.

In a GENERAL sense, I think it's fair to note that having separate AOE rotations only makes sense if the game is designed where fights frequently feature AOE parts of fights and the rotations have serious trade-offs for using one over the other. In ARR, for example, using AOE skills burned TP (for TP using Jobs) and MP for casters VERY quickly, making them not feasible for extended use. They also did low enough damage some Jobs would need 5+ targets before swapping to their AOE rotation. But, fights also often featured add or cleave phases. That was also true in older MMOs that this concept of having the different AOE rotation came from (though "rotation" is kind of a misnomer, as it was often just one or two skills). Some classes even specialized in dealing AOE damage, at the cost of having reduced single target capability. So the distinction actually kind of mattered.

In FFXIV, at this point, it kind of almost never matters...outside of things like Deep Dungeons. Granted, that could be solved by having just one of the buttons in your rotation be single target to use as a pulling tool, so it's not exactly an insurmountable barrier, but it is important to consider.

A second component that isn't important MECHANICALLY but is very important in reality: Aesthetics.

Compare PLD's single target rotation to its AOE rotation. The single target rotation is a sequence of slashing attacks and lunges. But the two AOE strikes are circular spins. This is also true with NIN's single target vs its AOE knife throw and ground Mudra-like follow-up. A lot of Jobs having their single target rotation do AOE damage would look...odd - PLD's Fast Blade or Riot Blade, for example. But if all attacks were AOE, that might turn out to look visually boring and unsatisfying to players. And this is (fortunately or unfortunately) a real concern.

It's LESS of an issue with magic attacks, though still kinda there. Fire 1 being an AOE is a little harder to justify than Fire 4 being an AOE, for example.

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In a vacuum, for many Jobs, merging their single and AOE rotations would probably not be much of an issue - SMN is PRACTICALLY already there, for example, if their Energy Siphon, Painflare, and Tri-Disaster/Precious Brilliance did the same damage to their main target as Energy Drain, Fester, Ruin III and Gemshine (respectively) did. Though again, not having a single target pulling tool might be problematic...though that could also be handled with Role actions (e.g. re-add Break as a Caster role action). But for other Jobs, especially Melee and Tanks, and to an extent BRD and MCH both, the aesthetic differences will become pretty real pretty fast.

I'm not sure what a solution is, since you're right that at this point, for much of the game, you either use AOE or use Single Target and there's not really a "choice", and those AOE buttons are basically ignored for most of the boss fights in the game (though to be fair, boss fights AREN'T the majority of the game except to raiders...). So you're right to point out an issue, but I'm not sure what the ideal solution is.

Dancer, reaper, samurai, and summoner (despite its lack of button volume) are notable for basically having two discrete sets of buttons, one for single target and one for AoE, where the AoE button set maps mostly 1:1 with the single target set. In the game's current state, this can be handled with a macro that swaps barsets between ST and AoE (see: Pastebin: FFXIV Two-mode Bar Switching Macro).
https://i.imgur.com/Kok6RjJ.gif

What I would really like to see is a keybind that switches between single target and AoE mode at a system level. This would allow jobs to have AoE rotations that mirror their single target rotations and allow them to switch on the fly. AoE would be just slightly more complicated for most jobs but the tradeoff of creating parity with the single target rotations may be worth it; alternatively AoE simplicity might be maintained by mapping multiple single target actions to the same AoE action. Either way, single target wouldn't run the risk of drawing unwanted mobs that simply adding falloff damage to single target attacks would cause.

The extent to which such a change should be applied to actions will vary between jobs. SAM, for example, should have this change apply to most of its oGCD Abilities because there are single and AoE versions of most of them. Contrast with RDM, which should not have its oGCD Abilities affected by an ST/AoE mode change at all.

The biggest obstacle of course would be that current single target and AoE actions are learned at different levels, so levels would have to be unified between single target and AoE versions or it would need to be handled some other way.

As a controller player, I actually *prefer* having separate AoE and ST buttons, for what it's worth. I have one bar set up for ST focused stuff, like dungeon bosses or trial/raids, and then another bar set up for mass pulling, and swap between them. Maybe this isn't as fluid on kb/m, but I've been playing on controller since 1.x and it's second nature at this point. Also tend to play tanks these days, and I think being able to have a simplified, completely separate AoE rotation from the ST one is actually good for mass pulling? Trying to use all the mitigation required in a mass pull *while* doing GNB's ST opener sounds like complete hell tbqh. And while dungeons aren't "real" content, they're still content I probably spend more time on than anything else since I do level all jobs to cap and don't particular care for modern savage fight design so they've really felt like dead/wasted buttons in particular. I'd much sooner them start doing add phases than consolidate / make dedicated AoE buttons an afterthought.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

A number of jobs have several buttons that are effectively dead buttons in the vast majority of meaningful encounters--buttons that exclusively exist for mowing down trash waves and FATE enemies and little else.

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*looks at healer kits*

I think the issue for dps isnt that bad. As while it can be useless for a lot of encounters, you still can face both types. Healers however can have cases in which healing barely has to be done at all. Most healing buttons are rarely useful, but only exist because in the rare case you need it, its at least there.

Sometimes situational abilities just have to exist, and AoE is on that a common enough case. A lot more common than a cure1 has in the lategame, and still more common than cure2 which is usualy still only for healing a tank that cant self sustain enough (funny enough, this is usualy during the same times that AoE abilities are used, showing that AoE is a lot more useful even in that case).

I was about to write on how great are skills with cleaves (AoE damage falloff) used in both ST and AoE scenari, like ShB DNC had on its AoE moves for instance, but the deep dungeon comment above made me ponder, so maybe adding cleaves on everything isn't a great idea (although a lot of jobs could benefit at least a little from this, namely RPR and BLM among others).

Then I constantly go back thinking about adding ST and AoE stances, pure and simple. Turn on the AoE stance, and you get the damage spreading neatly, however you want to balance it, and it turns single target skills into cleaves for example. Or full AoEs. Or any combination, imagination is the limit really.
- Pros: does what a dedicated ST/AoE hotbar system with macro for a swap already can do, and liberates so much hotbar room without having to dedicate a crapload of system hotbars to it that it's actually disgusting.
- Cons: might lack of intuitiveness for new players, might also fall into a clunky "cleric stance" feel, unless maybe they make it an instance swap with no CD. It would really need a smooth UI system to back it up, and I don't trust their UI team the slightest.

Well, like with the example, not every button is an AoE. In Deep Dungeons, you could still very easily pull an enemy with Cascade since it's still single target. As someone who does do Deep Dungeon content often, if I'm close enough to a non-aggroed enemy I don't want to fight that a normal-sized AoE attack will clip them, why the hell am I fighting right there? The second that enemy turns around, they're aggroed anyway. Why wouldn't I pull what I'm fighting away from them?

And also, even if it is an issue, should one example of secondary content demand an additional 5 buttons exist on a job just to avoid a fringe case of inconvenience in said content--especially when many jobs are already subjected to that inconvenience with the AoE attacks they currently have that are used in single target rotations? As said with DNC, Standard Step and Technical Step are far more dangerous in regards to accidentally clipping additional enemies. Or, if we need to cureall solution for that content, you could also just add a bonus action to Deep Dungeons like how there are 5 bonus actions in variant dungeons that you can pick 2 of, that toggles a stance which reduces your action radius to 0 yalms.

I generally dislike how AoE kits are handled in 14. I find "same as single target but aoe" abilities just boring and lazy. Deep dungeon aside, there's almost never a time where you want to hit just one enemy and not any others, at least there's no downside to hitting more than one. I honestly wouldn't mind your suggestion. That said, I do miss how DNC worked in ShB where flourish would proc your aoe and single target flourishes so you'd have to be in melee range for 2 GCD's but that's a different discussion. I really just don't like having 3 or 4 extra abilities that function identically to other buttons in your kit but are AoE. It's just button bloat.

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Originally Posted by SargeTheSeagull

I generally dislike how AoE kits are handled in 14. I find "same as single target but aoe" abilities just boring and lazy. Deep dungeon aside, there's almost never a time where you want to hit just one enemy and not any others, at least there's no downside to hitting more than one. I honestly wouldn't mind your suggestion. That said, I do miss how DNC worked in ShB where flourish would proc your aoe and single target flourishes so you'd have to be in melee range for 2 GCD's but that's a different discussion. I really just don't like having 3 or 4 extra abilities that function identically to other buttons in your kit but are AoE. It's just button bloat.

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That's kind of where I was going with the idea of instead of cutting Rising Windmill and Bloodshower, maybe make them a separate 1-2 combo with some sort of restriction, be it a cooldown, esprit, or whatnot, that you use to break away from your normal 1-2 + flourishes combo every so often. It wouldn't be connected to Flourish the action, but it would bring that melee aspect back into the job more frequently, and would give something else to break up the more slow periods between each burst.

DNC is one of the Jobs in the game I don't play and don't know on even a cursory level (I'm still sore over it not being a Healer and so still semi-boycott it as in haven't leveled it), but I'm trying to get at what you're asking, so may I ask a question to see if I'm understanding your intent?

I'll use RDM as an example because everyone and their grandma's pet dog has played it and is at least passingly familiar with it.

RDM has a single target rotation consisting of (I'll omit the Ver-s):

Jolt 1/2, Fire, Stone, Thunder 1/3, Aero 1/3, Enchanted Reposte, Zwerchhau, Redoublement, Holy/Flare, Scorch, Resolution, with Fleche and Contre Sixte being oGCDs to weave throughout the rotation, and Enchanted Reprise for a minimum use movement tool.

RDM has a AOE rotation consisting of:

Impact, Thunder 2, Aero 2, Enchanted Moulinet, Holy/Flare, Scorch, Resolution, and Contre Sixte being an oGCD AOE attack (though you'd also use Fleche because why not)

Strictly speaking, one can see most of this rotation is very similar. So one could propose a system where all the AOE attacks are AOE attacks that do full damage to the first target, and the "extras" could be single target only. So, for example, let's PLAY PRETEND (this is a hypothetical for illustration purposes, NOT A PROPOSAL) and make a hypothetical RDM like so:

Impact does Jolt 2 damage to the first target and has falloff for additional targets. (Scatter can presumably do the same with Jolt 1)
Aero 2/Thunder 2 do Aero/Thunder 1/3 damage to the first and falloff equal to Aero/Thunder 2 current damage.
Enchnated Repost does 280 to the first target and 130 to all other targets (Moulinet's damage), and can be used 3 times in a row OR can be combo chained into Zwerchhau and Redoublement.
Fire/Stone remain unchanged.
Holy/Flare, Scorch, and Resolution remain unchanged.
Fleche and Contra Sixte remain unchanged.
Enchanted Reprise remains unchanged.

Remove Jolt 1/2 (or make Scatter and Impact those or ...whatever so that it's just ONE button on Hotbar, I don't care which name we land on)
Same with the Aero/Thunder line, they can just be 3 upgrades to the core (now always AOE) spells.

So what did I just do?

Well, you have your AOE rotation buttons. These are the same as the core of your single target rotation, just the single target rotation has a few additional buttons (Stone/Fire, Fleche, and Reprise) that wouldn't be used in AOE situations of 3+ targets. The buttons pull "double duty" in that you use the same AOE buttons as the "core" of your single target rotation, but it's simplified for burning trash or more hectic situations while the single-target rotation has the added buttons to make it more interesting to do for longer fights (bosses) and for more optimization.

Your single target rotation will be:

Jolt/Impact (whatever name we land on, this is the short cast non-elemental spell that generates Mana of both types) into Aero/Thunder, using Stone/Fire in place of Jolt for SINGLE TARGET ONLY (maybe it does the Acceleration Impact +50 damage if you use Impact instead for AOE), then you build up to your 50/50+1 mana and use Enchanted Reposte, Zwerchhau, Redoublement, Holy/Flare, Scorch, Resolution. Basically, you play just as you play single target now, and in single target, notice no difference since the AOE spells do the same damage to their primary target.

Your AOE rotation will be:

Impact into Aero/Thunder (swapping the current AOE order, but this is fine), and repeat this (no Stone/Fire) until you get 60/60+1, then Enchanted Reposte...Enchanted Reposte, Enchanted Reposte (three times), Holy/Flare, Scorch, Resolution. So you're using the single target rotation, just leaving out Stone/Fire procs/using the proc on Improve Impact, and using Reposte 3 times for the extra AOE damage (at a cost of 10/10 more Mana).

You've removed 3 buttons (not huge, but as I say, RDM already has a ton of overlap) and the AOE rotation is now the "simplified core" of the single target rotation.

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Another example, let's pick...hm, I'd pick WAR but the second hit of its 1-2 AOE does the Storm's Eye thing. NIN has a similar problem. Hm...how about Old PLD?

Suppose that the 1-2 of the melee combo were Total Eclipse -> Prominence. But for -3, you had the choice of Royal Authority or (old) Goring Blade. These would be DPS gains on a single target, but DPS losses on AOE. So in AOE situations, you'd hit 1-2-1-2-1-2, but for single target/boss fights, you would use 1-2-4-1-2-3-1-2-3-1-2-4-1-2-3-1-2-3; repeat. (and the caster bit and all that, but this is just for illustration simpler than the RDM example).

In other words: The AOE buttons would again be the "core" of the rotation, and you'd use them alone for AOE situations, but once you got to the single target situation (or probably less than 3 targets for Royal and less than 5 targets for Goring), Royal and Goring would become part of your single target/boss rotation since they'd be a DPS gain. But for the wall to wall pulls, you're only worried about the 1-2 since the -3/4 would be DPS losses for all those targets, so you'd just clip your rotation short to that "core".

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So what does this accomplish?

Well, it reduces button bloat (for Jobs like PLD, that struggle is real), while still allowing the AOE rotation to feel distinct (-ish) from the single-target one, and while still allowing the single-target rotation to feel more involved and advanced. It also allows keeping those single target buttons for use in situations where you'd need to grab a lone enemy from a group (in RDM's case, some additional change would be needed like Fire/Stone being available if out of combat, or maybe available all the time but do less damage than Jolt without the proc with the proc increasing their potency to the current form - whatever, it doesn't matter, this isn't a proposal, it's just an illustration) in Deep Dungeons since you're generally not going to conduct the ENTIRE FIGHT right next to the enemy, you just need 1-3 hits to pull them and maybe smack them a few times as they close into melee with you. (Not to mention, as many abilities already do AOE splash damage like Circle of Scorn or VerHoly/Flare/Scorch/Resolution, you'd be pulling other mobs using them anyway)

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Is that kind of what you're suggesting here?

Again, I don't know DNC, so I'm not sure if it is or not, I'm asking if that's what you're going for or if it's perhaps something else...?

1st - Turn all Area-of-Effect skills into " Circles ", all of them... Once Square has done that? then...

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Is that kind of what you're suggesting here?

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More or less, yeah. I think there are different ways you could go about it per job, but essentially the goal is to either prune off buttons that exist exclusively for the purpose of AoE or Single Target (Depending on what action we're talking about. Like for RDM we're talking about merging Verthunder/aero II with III, but on DNC, you wouldn't want their core rotation to be a point-blank melee combo) or merge two buttons that have the same purpose but are just single target or AoE versions of the same things (Foul/Xenoglossy, Fester/Painflare, etc.)

On the RDM example, one step I'd take further would be to add Verstone II and Verfire II as AoE upgrades to their current forms (something I foresee happening in the future anyway), but in order to still have something that's not AoE for the purposes of pulling in deep dungeons and whatnot, perhaps Verstone I and Verfire I are the "base" that you can cast at any time. They're single-target and weaker than Impact, but have no cast time and thus can be used on the move instead of Reprise, and are swapped to their AoE, more potent upgrades when you have your normal stone/fire procs. Or perhaps we do something like Acceleration makes your next spell not only instant, but stronger and single target, though that makes it strictly a DPS resource, though if you do both that and the stone/fire I thing, then you still have stone/fire I for mobility.

Like you say, RDM already doesn't really invest heavily into a single target vs AoE dichotomy as heavily as, say, BLM or SAM do, so it's not as noticeable of a gain there.

On PLD, I'd do it a little differently. Your standard 1-2-3 could instead be Fast Blade > Total Eclipse > Royal Authority with Prominence being a replacement for Goring Blade. So in single target, you'd still go 1-2-3 or 1-2-4, but in AoE, your combo is 2-4, where Total Eclipse's non-comboed potency is your normal AoE potency, and the combo increases that to current Riot Blade's with falloff damage. Also, Holy Circle would just be an upgrade of Holy Spirit (it also looks significantly better animation-wise anyway). Though it may not matter as much to need a single-target combo starter on tanks thanks to Shield Lob and its equivalents for the other tanks, so your path would probably work too. These cases would keep PLD as-is for both single-target and AoE in terms of gameplay.

Another example I can give is a little of how I imagined it for DRK...

There are a lot of obvious mergers outside of their normal combo like Flood of Shadow/Edge of Shadow and Bloodspiller/Quietus, but as for their normal combo, what we have currently is:
Hard Strike > Siphon Strike > Souleater for single target
Or
Unleash > Stalwart Soul for AoE.

What you could do to make it a little more interesting is creating a sort of branching combo that looks like...
Hard Strike > Unleash > Souleater where Unleash and Souleater restores HP when comboed this way and perhaps gives you a Storm's Eye type benefit
Or
Hard Strike > Stalwart Soul > Siphon Strike where Stalwart Soul restore MP when comboed this way.

Meanwhile AoE offers:
Unleash > Stalwart Soul where Stalwart Soul restores MP when comboed out of Unleash
Or
Stalwart Soul > Unleash where Unleash restores HP when comboed out of Stalwart Soul and provides that Storm's Eye buff.

The Storm's Eye type buff is there because MP is a DPS gain over HP, but you still have the HP route that you can use for buff upkeep and in tight situations like large trash enemies for better sustain. This route doesn't actually save DRK any buttons, but it makes their combo game a lot more interesting. I won't speak for DRK players if that approach would be liked or not necessarily, but my point is more that you can be creative with the different parts of combos.

And I've said this before on the healers, but simply adding either a form of conditional utility to AoE buttons, or buff upkeep would very easily make their AoE spells useable in single target, like some condition where Holy III speeds up your lily generation while having its potency made neutral to Glare III under those conditions, or Art of War being a Storm's Eye type crit buff to upkeep, and these types of approaches can vary between healers ranging from regular usage to optional/situational usage depending on the healer. But we've been there already.

I will say, I would like to consciously try and preserve really strong and iconic single target or AoE animations as much as is feasible. Like I wouldn't want to just cut Fell Cleave and have Steel Cyclone be your only gauge spender because people like Fell Cleave a lot, so perhaps simply adjusting the animation to be a cone AoE while retaining its impact would be the better option there.