You know what enrages me? Playing scholar in pvp. I mean Astro is like the perfect healer job. It heals well, buffs and has burst damage. Scholar? We can just buff and debuff. Where is our burst damage? Scholar is to dependant on the team. I don’t like that.
If your team is bad then you suffer greatly. On Astro I can carry a bad team. Even on Whm if the team is decent I can carry. On scholar there is just no way possible. I can debuff all I want but it doesn’t do much if my team doesn’t take advantage of it. I really hope in 7.0 that this is looked at and changed. We need some burst. Something that can help us more.
I know about squares little diagram they showed us about the top pvp jobs and scholar was up there and they nerfed us but they didn’t tell us anything other than it was being played allot. No win rates or nothing. So save that argument. Don’t get me wrong. If you have a good team behind you then scholar is beastly but you can’t choose who you go into battle with. You just have to take what you got and try to make it work.
Maybe I just keep getting the bad ones lol. I don’t know. Sorry my rant is over now. Happy Saturday warriors of light.
What were the devs thinking?
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02-26-2023, 08:13 AMSweetPeteWhat were the devs thinking?
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02-26-2023, 08:27 AMElfidan
They were most likely thinking about having each job feel like it's own thing. It's not just healers the tanks feel like 4 distinct entities as well. To be honest though every job in CC has come down to mastering a playstyle and some are easier than others to grasp.
Personally, I hate playing against SCH because they just keep coughing on people. I lost track of how many times I escaped a CC lockdown just to die to SCH cooties before my elixir could finish or I could reach a potion pick up. -
02-26-2023, 08:37 AMNubricationThere are some classes that are definitely team reliant (you can excel but only if your team isn't bad). In my opinion they are: PLD, SCH, BRD and MNK. The first 3 are obvious. MNK however can secure kills but it's take too long to build up a Phantom Rush combo, if your team is bad, they'll all be dead before you can even pull the combo off. If you have to "meat shield" AND be the initiator for your team (there's no TANK and your team is full of ranged) then you have to worry more about surviving which can also ruin your combo building.Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetPete
DNC and RPR probably fall somewhere in between team reliant and not team reliant. -
02-26-2023, 09:19 AMSweetPete
You guys have some good points and I was just frustrated earlier because of all the loses I was having. I am a very good scholar and usually don’t die in my teams because I know how to maneuver well and use the field stages to my advantage. It just seems no matter how hard I debuff and shield/buff my team just doesn’t take advantage.
Now I have won don’t get me wrong. Sch has been great to me and I have racked up loads of wins but it’s just those back to back to back loses and you scream at your tv like “What’s my team doing, where are they? Why am I the only one on point” lol. Stuff like that. Overall sch is a good job I know this. I just wish it wasn’t so team reliant that’s all. -
02-26-2023, 09:23 AMDivinemightsEvery jobs post 6.1 is depending on the team to performQuote:
Originally Posted by SweetPete
You didn't get that memo until 6.3?
Kinda late isnt it.
Scholar in general is is a support focused PvP healer.
You played the wrong job if you want burst range damage -
02-26-2023, 11:05 AMRyanCouslandthis isnt really the case as some jobs are very independent i.e NIN,DRG,SAM,DRK other jobs like PLD,SCH, and BRD require your team to understand those toolkits to better optimize these jobs utility, so the OP is on pointQuote:
Originally Posted by Divinemights
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02-26-2023, 11:31 AMDivinemightsFrontline wise.Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanCousland
None of the jobs you listed has the ability to obtain a kill without a party, especially DRG, DRK, and NIN.
SAM LB is just a lol and this job has lost its burst ability from 5.1; unless you are counting on inexperience players or tunnel vision players, but fact this job can be just ignored because its damage output can't even suppress Recuperate's CD.
This job is highly rely a group vs group encounter; otherwise I can stand there and let this jobhit me for 15 mins and it barealy can lower my hp by 5%.
DRG needs DRK to setup for them.
Nin need other jobs to lower target's HP below 50% for them.
PLD can be ignored this expansion after they took nerf the cover.
SCH and BRD and supports and not many on Primal even bother to play support role on a support job; unless you are telling me Aether is different
The ecosystem is simply different for 6.1 compares to 5.1 -
02-26-2023, 11:59 AMNubricationDRG, DRK, NIN AND SAM can absolutely kill without party members. It's definitely more difficult in Crystal Tier where everyone knows how to guard and purify properly; and when to run from a fight and elixir. In lower ranked CC, casual CC, FL AND RW, they can easily solo kill people (and yes, SAM can do it without LB). SAM's burst window is 40k dmg LOL, not counting their stun (which does 10% of target's current HP) nor any extra dmg from Chiten dmg return/Chiten's 25% dmg bonus). If you can't kill someone with just SAM burst, then it's time to pay more attention to who just used guard and has low mana (in CC).Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinemights
As for DRG, you're probably not bursting the right people properly if you can't kill anyone. Same with DRK and NIN.
Even in "DUEL" scenarios. Where you both start at full hp and full mana, it's possible. But there are variables that come in to play like environment, HP kit, and elixir. And chances are you'll rarely be in this situation unless you are completely ignoring objective because you have a hard on for someone. This is all of course - in terms of CC. In FL, why would even bother trying to solo anyone. Everybody has innate damage mitigation - and even then it's still possible to solo kill (as those classes) with BH5, etc. (granted it's gonna take you a long time and only if the enemy decides not to run). -
02-26-2023, 12:01 PMDivinemightsPlease read before you postQuote:
Originally Posted by Nubrication
I specifically said Frontline Wise -
02-26-2023, 12:03 PMNubricationWhoops my bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinemights
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02-26-2023, 12:05 PMRyanCouslandthe jobs listed can kill in FL im pretty sure i dont have to spell out hunting by enemy base or taking out the monk golfersQuote:
Originally Posted by Divinemights
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02-26-2023, 12:06 PMRyanCouslandis this a FL or CC question because i imagine in FL SCH excels with everyone grouped upQuote:
Originally Posted by SweetPete
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02-26-2023, 12:19 PMDivinemightsYou list the wrong job that still has possibility to solo kill on the frontlineQuote:
Originally Posted by RyanCousland
Monk is the only melee left with possibility to straight up kill once rotation is completed; but it is range/caster only.
None of the jobs you listed can kill solo in Frontline
Harass enemy OP is an effective Lonewolf strategy for Frontline and exists since day one Frontline mode exist.
It is proven in past years that it can be done by any job.
When it is done by a seasoned player, it is possible to keep the target FC end up as 3rd place.
By the way, PLD in 5.1 is not really a tank, it is all around mobile fortress with canon; when played correctly, it solo kills every job.
When works with another seasoned SAM, it is possible for these two job to stale least 2 parties. (verified)
Oh I sure miss 5.1 where I can boost my overall Frontline winning percentage by 6% and I don't need to lost my sanity -
02-26-2023, 12:37 PMNubricationI also assumed this thread was about CC. Cause you can't "carry" (as OP said) as WHM in FL.Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanCousland
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02-26-2023, 12:39 PMDivinemightsWHM when play right, it actually can carry an allince on FrontlineQuote:
Originally Posted by Nubrication
Just most of people cares too much about their KD on the scorebord and went trigger happy -
02-26-2023, 12:46 PMNubricationI feel like we have different definitions of "carry." Well placed and timed WHM LBs can change a group fight for sure, but it's not carrying if you still lose the game due to RNG, etc. The only way to "carry" (in my opinion) your team is with a full premade and callouts. You have to convince 20 other players to get in on the shenanigans. Even with a full premade and synced LBs, you can still lose if the entire alliance isn't following.Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinemights
We just need 8 man premades again, it forced people to make counter 8 mans which made FL games waaaay more satisfying because you didn't have to deal with randoms. -
02-26-2023, 12:50 PMDivinemightsIt is not just Afflatus Purgation, the timing of using Mircale of Nature i nwhich a 25s most powerful CC that put target in animation lockQuote:
Originally Posted by Nubrication
A lot of complains you see on this forum (DRKs and SAMs) can be counter by Mircale of Nature. -
02-26-2023, 01:25 PMRyanCouslandi think your reading the wrong statement because i made two one was about jobs that are too dependent the other was about jobs that are more than self sufficient in solo kills regardless of cc or FL, never said PLD was a tankQuote:
Originally Posted by Divinemights
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02-26-2023, 02:05 PMSweetPeteI am talking about CC not FL. Sorry I didn’t clarify.Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanCousland
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02-26-2023, 02:10 PMRyanCouslandso this point while disproven is meaninglessQuote:
Originally Posted by Divinemights
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02-26-2023, 02:23 PMNubricationI don't consider piggy anywhere near the realm of "carrying" in FL. Because you only stop 1 person out of 48 possible opponents. Sure you can stop a DRK succ or SAM LB but it doesn't mean much if there are multiple DRKs and SAMs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinemights
I literally had a game where there was a premade on one of the opposing teams where I (playing as WHM) LB'd the DRK when he was trying to run towards my alliance. After I stunned him (with LB), he purified. Then when he got close, I piggy'd him. Guess what my alliance did? They stayed right next to the DRK that was piggy'd. Needless to say, they got wiped by the DRK/DRG combo LOL. -
02-26-2023, 08:02 PMCidel
Ehh. You're not wrong, OP. SCH is easily the most team-dependent job, in both CC and FL. I've wondered if this is warranted though, because I'd argue that it has the lowest skill floor and least amount of direct and immediate impact in most situations, excluding their LB (which I think is solid).
Your entire game plan is roughly to nail as much of the enemy team as possible with Biolysis+Deploy when it's up and try to tag as many teammates as you can with Adlo+Deploy and Expedient buffing one or the other when it's ready while applying Expedient's Def and Movement buffs to as many teammates as you can. From there, you can only hope your team is competent enough to take advantage of the difference of their party-wide attack/defense buffs and enemy's attack debuff while you spam Broil where possible and maybe Mummification someone to help secure a kill and add a little extra pressure. However they do have a powerful LB, arguably becoming the best "healer" so long as Seraph is active and your team is in range.
That's SCH in a nutshell. The issue will always be your team's skill, so if you queue as SCH you've pretty much resigned yourself to becoming the supporting character and are gambling on whether or not your team can capitalize on the momentum you create. I like to think of SCH as something that can multiply their team by two; the bigger the base "value" (skill) of the team, the larger the result will be. But multiplying zero by two is still zero. SCH is absolutely crippled when you have a team that is neither cohesive or tends to scatter to do their own thing because every AoE buff and heal they have is wasted (and I think some enemy comps can ruin SCH's effectiveness by this nature). This is why I think climbing lower ranks is probably difficult for them.
Didn't the stats the devs release reveal the jobs by winrates rather than the amount played? I believe SCH had a better winrate, but most accurately deduced that was probably because it was played by less casual people, actually. Because of its nature of not being a bursty job with big offensive plays. So only the people who understood its strengths, played CC beyond your average casual, and could play it well above the skill floor stuck with it.
I just think Mummification should either do a bit more damage (it's the weakest "AoE bomb" ability between all healers despite needing to be in a vulnerable range) or reduce its recast by at least 5 seconds so that it doesn't feel as handicapped and weak between Deployment Tactics and Biolysis timers. If not that, then maybe give their base Broil an extra 500-1,000 potency?