It is DUMB to put a two melee check at the last phase of an ultimate

If you don't have two melees in your static for Omega Ultimate. You just got f-ed. The last phased revealed a "two melee check" mech basically requires you to have two melees in your team to have a lot of extra damage. Please stop making dumbass mechnics like this to make ppl disband.

In general I really dislike harsh DPS checks, I understand why we should have them but at the end of the day making any too harsh or making it limiting on what jobs you pick makes it really frustrating for players who would have liked to play something else, I rather the fight mechs be difficult to perform in my personal opinion (obviously it already currently is).

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

In general I really dislike harsh DPS checks, I understand why we should have them but at the end of the day making any too harsh or making it limiting on what jobs you pick makes it really frustrating for players who would have liked to play something else, I rather the fight mechs be difficult to perform in my personal opinion (obviously it already currently is).

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The dps check pushes you not only to do the mechanics well but also to optimize your rotation in the best possible way but in general the rdps of the entire group. However we are talking about high level contents, in this case of very high level, and it is right that people are encouraged to do everything very well, from the mechanics to the optimization of the rdps. To get the maximum gratification possible. Personally I didn't follow TOP carefully, but the iron dps check that can be overcome with the extreme optimization of the party damage is one thing, it is another thing to have to have a certain comp in order to beat it. (In this case if you have 2 melee do they get a buff?). Or is it more of a note about the lack of jobs balance? Because this would be another problem and not really directly related to this ultimate.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

In general I really dislike harsh DPS checks, I understand why we should have them but at the end of the day making any too harsh or making it limiting on what jobs you pick makes it really frustrating for players who would have liked to play something else, I rather the fight mechs be difficult to perform in my personal opinion (obviously it already currently is).

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No dps check = ignore mechanics and brute force your way through a fight.

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Originally Posted by Ggwppino

The dps check pushes you not only to do the mechanics well but also to optimize your rotation in the best possible way but in general the rdps of the entire group. However we are talking about high level contents, in this case of very high level, and it is right that people are encouraged to do everything very well, from the mechanics to the optimization of the rdps. To get the maximum gratification possible. Personally I didn't follow TOP carefully, but the iron dps check that can be overcome with the extreme optimization of the party damage is one thing, it is another thing to have to have a certain comp in order to beat it. (In this case if you have 2 melee do they get a buff?). Or is it more of a note about the lack of jobs balance? Because this would be another problem and not really directly related to this ultimate.

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No, in last phase everyone get a buff that basically refund another limitbreak if they use a lb3. A caster lb and a physrange lb is required for a meteor dps check and the other two lbs are basically free. So you have a huge advantage if you run two melees bc you get 3 melee lbs for free. It is about 700 rdps difference. If you only have 1 melee, then you have one less melee lb and need to deal way more total dps to clear.

I am not saying forcing 2 melee is bad. I don't want to go into that rabbit hole here.
I just find it dumb that this "2 melee check" mech is in the last fking phase. I know some teams gave up and have to replace one of their caster, even if they are already at Phase 5.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

No dps check = ignore mechanics and brute force your way through a fight.

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I didn't even say no dps checks I said "really harsh dps checks" They're obviously important to a degree.

Forcing comps due to DPS checks being really harsh isn't hard it's just "select class for better damage" how about making the punishments for failing the actual fight mechs harsher, I don't know make damage downs have a massive effect on DPS, last longer, Then people couldn't just "brute force" through everything, ignoring how a lot depends on Crit/Direct hit even more so under "burst high numbers meta" I just don't think super strict DPS checks leads to a fun or fair game.

beyond that I think it's very restrictive on Job design to only be about damage advantages that's why I've never been a fan of super harsh dps checks, this even is true about support classes like tanks and healers the only thing that matters is picking the ones with the best damage output, people complain that tanks/healers are becoming flavour reskins of one another but yet people wonder why? it's because complaints about one Job not fitting in well.

On topic, again I'm not a fan of "2 melees" it should always be 1 melee, 1 range, 1 caster & 1 Free, despite the adjustments towards casters/phys ranged recently they're not even close enough to being at melee, I'm pretty certain Phys ranged is only picked for the "1% buff" It's funny how behind RDM/BLM are despite how much more fights require way more effort and planning then any melee really needs to have.

Most mechanics in savage if you fail them outright either kill you or the entire party... Failing mechanics is already pretty harsh. Personally I'd like less of the raid wipe mechanics for the mistake of a single player.

The BLM comment I do wish we did more damage. The effort I have to make to play well compared to my SAM is night and day, so I'll give you that one.

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Originally Posted by Kachou_

So you have a huge advantage if you run two melees bc you get 3 melee lbs for free. It is about 700 rdps difference.

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Yes, in fact, the free lb3 can make a difference, with the addition that in general the melee does more damage and brings more damage than the casters or phys-ragend. If it's not clearable I totally agree with you, especially if you introduce me to this mechanic at a final stage.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

I just don't think super strict DPS checks leads to a fun or fair game.

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Yes, but the high-level content must be 360°. The effort that a player must make must go from the mechanics, to their own rotation, to the full planning of when to use the buffs (including the pots) to increase the overall damage of the group not just their own. The DPS check is present precisely to push players to really collaborate and not to follow the rotation like a robot. You cannot expect a very high-level content to be as permissive like an extreme. A content that is not meant to be done by everyone, but by a slice of people who want to challenge the game, the game designers and themselves by collaborating with 7 other people.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

I didn't even say no dps checks I said "really harsh dps checks" They're obviously important to a degree.

Forcing comps due to DPS checks being really harsh isn't hard it's just "select class for better damage" how about making the punishments for failing the actual fight mechs harsher, I don't know make damage downs have a massive effect on DPS, last longer, Then people couldn't just "brute force" through everything, ignoring how a lot depends on Crit/Direct hit even more so under "burst high numbers meta" I just don't think super strict DPS checks leads to a fun or fair game.

beyond that I think it's very restrictive on Job design to only be about damage advantages that's why I've never been a fan of super harsh dps checks, this even is true about support classes like tanks and healers the only thing that matters is picking the ones with the best damage output, people complain that tanks/healers are becoming flavour reskins of one another but yet people wonder why? it's because complaints about one Job not fitting in well.

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I agree. DPS checks serve a purpose but they are ultimately too restrictive. I'd rather mechanics either hit harder or you get Doom like in Bozja.

Some people will always meta slave. To each their own. Buy why does the rest have to play with less fun jobs?

All I see is either stuff get dumbed down since little Timmy has to make it through the MSQ and has anxiety even emoting to someone or we have people who wouldn't OCD heal even if their own team members if they were on the brink of dying. Neither approach is necessary wrong, even though I'm not a fan, but can we have some balance (pun intended) back? It's all so extreme.

Balance around the last sub-1% of DPS for some random comp while the classes themselves have much higher DPS variance between each other and pull-by-pull depending on crit. The question here is not whether DPS checks should exist - it is that they can be too harsh. Harsh enough to drive people away from playing with the classes or teammates they want. "Technically clearable" is a low bar for encounter design if "all classes are viable" is the end goal.

This ultimate kinda sucks. CritRNG decide if you are passing the dps check on phase 1. I would rather have skill check if you miss a gcd or something than let RNG decide your fate.

It would be more excusable if that were the only issue, yeah they made a mistake, it happens. TOP however has so many design problems and flat out bugs that you really have to ask yourself "was this even properly tested?"

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

"was this even properly tested?"

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Ah yes, the question perfectly associated with almost everything in Endwalker.

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Originally Posted by Vinal211

Ah yes, the question perfectly associated with almost everything in Endwalker.

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Ngl I have never seen as many game breaking bugs in any previous expansion than I've seen in Endwalker.

I really think that the dev team should merge down physical and magical ranged dps into a single role. Then players might finally catch on to their intended fight setup of two tanks, two close-ranged dps, two healers, and two far-ranged dps without them needing to artificially hint at it through higher damage output or fight-specific mechanics.

The whole expansion has practically been "meleewalker" with all the other dps roles having their damage output gutted, savage fight design catered with melee dps ease in mind and making tight enough DPS checks in Savage/Ultimate content that running anything but double melee is, while not impossible, a massive inconvenience and waste of time

All jobs should have rDPS parity, agreed. But triple ranged was never intended in fight design, because it makes mechanics significantly easier for everyone, fake role dichotomies aside. Sorry, not sorry.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

No dps check = ignore mechanics and brute force your way through a fight.

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That works if the classes are balanced enough that you don't have to basically minmax just to clear.

EW Job Balance....isn't that.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

All jobs should have rDPS parity, agreed. But triple ranged was never intended in fight design, because it makes mechanics significantly easier for everyone, fake role dichotomies aside. Sorry, not sorry.

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You'll have to point which mechanic.
In Endwalker it's very rare to see a mechanics that forces disconnecting from a boss, where ranged can freely damage the boss.

I can think of:
-P2S Limit cut
-P4S Pinax&Second act
-P5S double dash
-DSR Phase 6 WrothFlames

And only WrothFlame needs you to disconnect for more than 2 GCDs.

Spread mechanics, which are present in all fights, encourage fewer players to be within melee range of the boss. This is why tanks and melee always prefer having fewer jobs in melee range, which has been true since ARR. The reason why you're being forced to run a 4/4 TM/HR setup in every single fight nowadays is not just because of damage or limit break spam mechanics. It's because they've been designing their fights with that expectation from the beginning, and now they're actually enforcing it.

Rather than enforcing it with rDPS differences (which I disagree with), the long term solution is to change the role designations such that you have one combined ranged role with two slots allocated to it, and one melee role with two slots allocated to it, just like tanks and healers do. The fake dichotomy between physical ranged and magical ranged is completely unnecessary and adds no gameplay value. Otherwise, we might as well subdivide melee into physical melee and magical melee while we're at it. Hopefully they'll put a permanent end to this turf war next expansion.

List of Savage+ Endwalker mechanics which can't be full uptimed with a double melee comp due to spreads:

Having three ranged won't give you any kind of advantage unless you actually gain gcd's from having a ranged role over the melee, and the advantage needs to be gained in a phase/fight where the dps check is relevant, otherwise the proposed gain is only a speed thing. In TOP Phase 6, which this thread is about, it's extremely easy to have full uptime as a melee player. Some of the movement mechanics even happen on intercardinals, so you can get your free positionals while doing exasquares without any worry in the world. Meanwhile casters and healers have to sweat bullets slidecasting/pre-moving exas and ration resources in order to get uptime and deal damage. If you look at the damage distribution for TOP p6, you'll see that the three casters are at the dead bottom, because maintaining caster uptime is much more difficult than melee is. But I suppose "triple ranged" needs to be punished because in an alliance raid it's impossible to keep melee uptime when 14 people get spreads.

Triple melee doesn't exist. Why should triple ranged?

Because casters and physical ranged aren't the same category, or you should argue that penta melee doesn't exist given tanks are melee too.

The prefix 'penta' means 'five', and the word 'tetra' means 'four'.

If you're including tanks as 'melee' and healers as 'ranged', then the standard setup that fights are based around would be tetra-melee and tetra-ranged. And what you would be arguing in favor of is penta-ranged, which has no melee equivalent.

2+ 3 = 5 no?

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Originally Posted by fulminating

2+ 3 = 5 no?

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2 tanks + 2 mDPS = 4 melee
2 healers + 1 pRanged + 1 mRanged = 4 ranged

Make Melee Work For Uptime Again. This 10% damage boost they get over the ranged for zero reason or downside is utter BS.

I agree with that, although I'd go one step further and say that damage parity across jobs is important and there's no real reason for any one DPS subrole to have a dps advantage over the others, regardless of how 'hard' you have to work for it. I really dislike this trend towards making bosses with oversized hitboxes or wall bosses that don't adequately make use of the arena, for the simple reason that I want to be given more challenges. The opportunity to excel at a task that others view to be difficult is its own reward, and good players want more opportunities to showcase that talent.

That being said, most people campaigning on this forum are mainly motivated by personal greed and will seek out any pretext to squeeze out every last personal advantage they can get, and the idea of letting triple ranged (or penta-ranged if you're counting healers) comps become standard is just bad for fight design. You might as well let every job play at range at that point.

DPS as a form of difficulty is boring. It's what most games do anyway.

This is the devs telling us they want the typical comp with no switch ups.

cuz the standard comp is 1 melee, 1 physical ranged, 1 caster and 1 free.
Triple ranged IS a standard comp while triple melee isn’t.

ffs nope. If you cant do the content stick with savage and extremes. Everytime people request this game to be easier the updates get crapper and crapper.

Totally agree. It’s quite obvious that Square Enix has been promoting melee jobs since the beginning of EndWalker. But no one expected they would go this far as triple ranged teams were doing well in DSR. And I’m one of those unlucky victims of this design. At the beginning I joined a static which already had a BLM but we didn’t think it would be a big problem. We were already in phase 4-5 when we knew the LB mechanics put great disadvantages on triple ranged teams in phase 6. There were a few triple ranged teams succeed to clear it, but it would take much more time for them to roll for good crits in p6 than teams with 2 melee. So I left that static and spent a few days to find a new one.

It’s unacceptable because triple ranged comps are still standard comps in game. It’s just like telling you, this ultimate is designed for teams with 2 melee cuz we’re promoting melee jobs, and at the very late phase of the whole fight.

why is Yoshi sooo hesitant to buff the casters & ranged??

TOP has been cleared by double caster groups

Two melee arnt required

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

TOP has been cleared by double caster groups

Two melee arnt required

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Of course it has been, nobody said it was impossible without double melee. It is however a fact that double melee gives you an extra melee LB3 to use which is a clear advantage, one that shouldn't exist.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Of course it has been, nobody said it was impossible without double melee. It is however a fact that double melee gives you an extra melee LB3 to use which is a clear advantage, one that shouldn't exist.

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Double melee has been meta all of EW. I wouldn’t expect them to make substantial changes until at minimum 7.0

I’m as annoyed as you are but there isn’t really anything SE plans to do about it until then