Healer change request

Hi FFXIV, I am writing this on behalf of the raiding community. It has become the norm in this game where healers don't heal and instead worry about doing damage over healing the party especially in party finder. I have been on teams where white mages refused to use benediction after a tank buster and healers not sending out heals after aoes just went out. In fact these same type of people say that dps should use bloodbath or second wind so they don't have to send out heals.

This mentality is growing exponentially and streamers and communities such as the balance encourage this type of toxic behavior. Since it was mentioned a long time ago, can Square Enix please remove damage abilities from healers since their damage doesn't count towards the clear. (Re-watch the past live-letters so you can hear for yourself that healer dps doesn't count.) If the damage abilities are removed from healers then parties will experience less griefing from healers.

I would also like to note that I noticed the lack of healers in this expansion. Could this be due to having to heal.....I rest my case.

You know maybe reworking all healers to work like sage where they dps and heal!

On the assumption that this is a troll, the bait is could not possibly be more stale, but it looks like i'm hungry for stale-bait today

On the assumption that it's a genuine request, go look at the DPS required to clear any savage fight week 1. In fact, probably any EX trial at min ilvl too. Subtract the DPS contributed by both healers, and you soon realize that in order to make up for the 'no DPS from healers', the rest of the team has to be 75% or better. Mathematically speaking, the 'average group' (tank and DPS all 50% players) wouldn't be able to beat enrage. The only place where 'healer DPS is not needed to clear' is outgearing the hell out of content, or casual stuff like EX roulette, where you don't need the healer's HEALS, let alone their DPS, as you can just go WAR SMN X X and it works fine anyway. And with the changes to it in 6.3, I wouldn't be surprised if PLD now is able to do the same.

If you are genuine (god I hope not), go start a new character, pick CNJ, and don't cast any damage spells. You won't get past level 6 in the MSQ. The first solo instance as 'healer' forces you to throw some rocks, Yda and Pap don't target the adds that they call on you to handle (unless SE ninja hotfixed it). But even if they did, how would you level with no damage skills? Or is the suggestion that you have damage skills, but they don't work in non-solo content?

Reason there's less healers this expansion is, as discussed in many other threads, a combination of two factors. One, healing is less engaging, due to various complexities being removed from the kit. MP management, juggling several DOTs, weighing movement vs DPS loss (Ruin 2>ED vs Miasma 2), etc. Second is, because those complexities were removed, more 'fairweather' healers joined the role. The kind that would say 'I play healer to heal', and enjoyed the less focus on DPS that the first tier this expansion provided. When this tier offered a fairly unexpected step up in challenge, lots quit because they didn't actually want to deal with it. Both in terms of it requiring more DPS from them, and also more mit planning/HPS they couldn't keep up with.

SE kept the chicks in the nest for so long to protect them from the world, they never learned how to fly.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/327191

https://i.gyazo.com/79cb02d5f72fdf06...e05249ea9e.png

You got anything from this decade? The thread is so old it's wearing Scaevan accessories as it's BIS. Also we've debunked that statement, many times, with math to back it up. If Y-P says he firmly believes that healers shouldn't have to DPS, and his stance has not changed since then, there's only two outcomes. One, he's referring only to casual content, as we've already seen many times there's no clearing higher end content without healer DPS. Alternatively, and this would be funny (and kinda sad) if it's true, he's so out of touch with not only the players but his own design team that he doesn't realize they're making content that DOES require healer DPS to clear.

edit: wait I thought it meant 'Media Tour while Stormblood was out' not 'Media Tour where Stormblood was demoed' that means it's wearing SHIRE accessories for it's BIS that makes it EVEN LESS RELEVANT

Bet you supported the griefing of tanks in ashpedolos 1.

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Originally Posted by NicoKirito

Hi FFXIV, I am writing this on behalf of the raiding community. It has become the norm in this game where healers don't heal and instead worry about doing damage over healing the party especially in party finder. I have been on teams where white mages refused to use benediction after a tank buster and healers not sending out heals after aoes just went out. In fact these same type of people say that dps should use bloodbath or second wind so they don't have to send out heals.

This mentality is growing exponentially and streamers and communities such as the balance encourage this type of toxic behavior. Since it was mentioned a long time ago, can Square Enix please remove damage abilities from healers since their damage doesn't count towards the clear. (Re-watch the past live-letters so you can hear for yourself that healer dps doesn't count.) If the damage abilities are removed from healers then parties will experience less griefing from healers.

I would also like to note that I noticed the lack of healers in this expansion. Could this be due to having to heal.....I rest my case.

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I assure you the raiding community would rather jump into the aetherial sea and never return rather than agree with any of the nonsense you just spouted here. Dont speak for us. We don't claim you.

I bet you can't clear p6s without tank lb.

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Originally Posted by NicoKirito

I bet you can't clear p6s without tank lb.

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I dont see cachexia 2 because me and my cohealer dps. See how that works?

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Originally Posted by NicoKirito

Bet you supported the griefing of tanks in ashpedolos 1.

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Assuming you meant the adjust for Intemperance, no, I support the party doing the mechanic in a way that doesn't result in a damage down. At least, in week 3 onwards. The 'DD strat' I did suggest to the pug group I was running with as a potential strat to try (working off of one screenshot of each pattern, grabbed midpull) for a first clear, on day one. And in that context, not knowing the possibility of the Adjust strat existing, it's fine, if it gets the clear any dumb strat counts as 'valid'. Look at Brownie Lions from E12s. Looks horrendous to us who learned other strats, but hey it worked

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Originally Posted by NicoKirito

I bet you can't clear p6s without tank lb.

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Can clear without tank lb, do clear without tank lb, often skip cach2 entirely now because me and a cohealer combined will contribute 150% of the damage of one DPS class. Wild huh

Of course, you can always tell the healers in your team it's not their job to do damage. Just means you'll have to make up the 12k-ish DPS your group is now missing. That'd average out to 2k per player, and that includes the Tanks having to scrape up another 2k.

don't feed the troll, clearly came in here looking for a fight, knowing what the general consensus is. Block him and move on, people like this are only looking for attention

Yeh. Shame his 'looking for a fight' fell apart faster than a Stone Sky Sea dummy

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Originally Posted by NicoKirito

Bet you supported the griefing of tanks in ashpedolos 1.

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Originally Posted by NicoKirito

I bet you can't clear p6s without tank lb.

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https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...54/069/936.jpg

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Originally Posted by NicoKirito

You know maybe reworking all healers to work like sage where they dps and heal!

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Technically SCH did that first, and arguably does it a bit better.

Aw yeah! I can't wait to whack enemies with my book for 1 damage! Yoshi just makes this role better and better!

This is a troll.

No one legitimately wants healer damage buttons entirely removed (wouldn't be able to clear the MSQ), and this is some kind of farce trying to establish that such people do, in fact, exist, when no healer in MMO history has not had at least one damage button.

What really gives it away is the second post, by the same OP, says or make them all like SGE where they do damage to heal - which is the exact opposite of the argument "healers shouldn't have to do damage".

.

I do agree with the premise there are some people playing healer that do not heal in fights. I still remember an Innocence run in 5.0 where I was a healer and my co-healer was a WHM he only cast glare. I died because one of the DPS cleaved me with the sword line mechanic, and I had been solo healing. How do I know? I watched their cast bar Glare after Glare, typed in /party <se.2> Raise please? Heals please? and they ignored it, and party members dropped one by one since this person not only didn't Raise me, but refused to heal anyone, and then the tank died, then the other tank died, and then the healer died. Everyone left the instance and the PF lead kicked that healer before we picked up another and got the clear.

I'm not sure there are "refuse to even damage the enemy with Assize" healers in the game, but I know there are some "refuse to even cast an oGCD heal or to Raise" healers in the game. MOST will at least cast oGCD heals, but that guy was like dipping bird Glarespammer and I've never seen any others QUITE that bad. I've seen the SCH who didn't cast heals, but at least Eos was out and on the ball. And I've seen SGEs competently never cast a cure or raise because Kardia is amazing for that and they pretty much have to use their oGCD heals to not go OOM, so just doing those two things produces incidental healing and mitigation. WHM isn't built to not press a healing button. They don't have those tools.

While the troll IS right that people have griefed healers over not doing enough damage, the idea of removing all their damage buttons, even Glare and Holy, is just absurd.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

I still remember an Innocence run in 5.0 where I was a healer and my co-healer was a WHM he only cast glare.

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Not gonna try and defend the guy cos Healer job is 1: keep party alive and 2: do damage when party is not in danger of dying, in that order. But, if it was 5.0, then Lilies were damage loss to cast, Misery only refunding 900 of the 1200 total potency cost of the 4 Glares lost to cast it. It's times like that where having a DPS meter and being able to openly mention parses would be nice. Not so people can bully, but so you can ask 'are you just gonna go for a good parse instead of doing your job' and if they say they're going for a parse, you can just kick them for having zero teamplay. Or better yet, kick them before even zoning in if you know they're only in it for an irrelevant number on an irrelevant 3rd party website, that will be rendered completely obsolete in 7-8 months when the next tier comes out

I guess. I just know it DOES happen on rare occasion.

I don't think it's common or the norm, but given the player didn't cast a Raise or any oGCD heals, I don't think he/she was worried about whether their heals were damage neutral or not. :)

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Originally Posted by Renathras

I do agree with the premise there are some people playing healer that do not heal in fights. I still remember an Innocence run in 5.0 where I was a healer and my co-healer was a WHM he only cast glare. I died because one of the DPS cleaved me with the sword line mechanic, and I had been solo healing. How do I know? I watched their cast bar Glare after Glare, typed in /party <se.2> Raise please? Heals please? and they ignored it, and party members dropped one by one since this person not only didn't Raise me, but refused to heal anyone, and then the tank died, then the other tank died, and then the healer died. Everyone left the instance and the PF lead kicked that healer before we picked up another and got the clear.

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I will say, I have noticed a couple WHMs in my pugs where they won't use their heals at the right time. For example, when we would get hit with a heavy raidwide and I Fey Blessing into Whispering Dawn, I'm still looking at about 50% health for a while because I'm expecting my WHM to chip in with a rapture or at least an Asylum. This leaves me to burn an aether stack on indom. I try not to be elitist but when it's endgame content you should know when to use your aoe heals.

And then when I'm tanking I get the medica/cure spamming WHMs so yeah, WHMs are kind of a mixed bag. There are at least times where you will see a super clutch WHM.

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Originally Posted by Iedarus

I will say, I have noticed a couple WHMs in my pugs where they won't use their heals at the right time. For example, when we would get hit with a heavy raidwide and I Fey Blessing into Whispering Dawn, I'm still looking at about 50% health for a while because I'm expecting my WHM to chip in with a rapture or at least an Asylum. This leaves me to burn an aether stack on indom. I try not to be elitist but when it's endgame content you should know when to use your aoe heals.

And then when I'm tanking I get the medica/cure spamming WHMs so yeah, WHMs are kind of a mixed bag. There are at least times where you will see a super clutch WHM.

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It's also pretty rough when you don't have voice chat. I know there were plenty of times where I saw the party take damage, thought "eh Assize is 10 seconds off and the next raidwide is 40 second away so I don't need to do anything......oh you're going to Aspected Helios? Okay then. I wasn't going to let them die but....okay."

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

It's also pretty rough when you don't have voice chat. I know there were plenty of times where I saw the party take damage, thought "eh Assize is 10 seconds off and the next raidwide is 40 second away so I don't need to do anything......oh you're going to Aspected Helios? Okay then. I wasn't going to let them die but....okay."

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True. I do keep forgetting how heavily scripted the fights are. At this point my healing mindset is always accounting for mistakes especially if there's a tricky mechanic coming after the raidwide. I noticed significantly less wipes in party finder that way.

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Originally Posted by Iedarus

True. I do keep forgetting how heavily scripted the fights are. At this point my healing mindset is always accounting for mistakes especially if there's a tricky mechanic coming after the raidwide. I noticed significantly less wipes in party finder that way.

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It's situational. Like the current patch trial (both normal and EX): the boss does f***all for like 45 seconds when he's sitting there with his thumb up his butt casting the wind-up spells for his Purgation phase. No mechanics, no autoattacks, nothing. I wouldn't consider healing anyone during that relative eternity of a timegap to be an urgent task. But Barbie's tornadoes? Those would easily clip someone not paying attention, leaving someone at half HP during those is a bad idea in goober-finder.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

It's situational. Like the current patch trial (both normal and EX): the boss does f***all for like 45 seconds when he's sitting there with his thumb up his butt casting the wind-up spells for his Purgation phase. No mechanics, no autoattacks, nothing. I wouldn't consider healing anyone during that relative eternity of a timegap to be an urgent task. But Barbie's tornadoes? Those would easily clip someone not paying attention, leaving someone at half HP during those is a bad idea in goober-finder.

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Holy hell I watched Xeno's guide and you are absolutely right on that absurdly long downtime (Yoshi please give healers more dps buttons for the love of god). Also the fact that a tank can fuck up every single mechanic and still live is insane. Well at least this extreme won't be super painful to pug.

Mr. Square Enix, pls remove healer role; make all the white mages DPS and make Tanks self sustain their own healing kthxbye

Lmao any game you play where healing is involved, you will never just be healing.

This dumb fantasy of healers being restricted to being a healbot is tired and unoriginal. Has it ever occurred to you that that being a healbot is as equally boring as dpsing on current healer design?

In any combat situation, are you just going to sit there and heal away until your mana runs out, making your team work harder so you can sit there feel like you're doing something important by "focusing" on healing. No defeating an enemy is a team effort. Either you buff your teammates while keeping them alive or you help them take it down faster. Because the best way to stay alive, is kill it faster than it can kill you. Tanks also have to fight and do damage, not just sitting there and letting the enemy beat them down.

So what makes you think that a support/healer is any different? If you are not doing damage as a healer, you are making the duty longer than it needs to be. Time is important to anyone playing an online game, so you wasting their time by sitting there and hitting Cure 2 over a full HP.

You don't have to be the best at juggling both but putting some effort goes a long way.

This crusade against healer doing dps is getting dumber by the day and honestly, get like-minded friends around you. I'm sure they'll love to have a revolving door of "I'm a good healer because I don't touch my dps buttons!" Get real, I hope the devs do take away the dps buttons. Enjoy trying to complete MSQ battles on your precious purist healer.

And I can guarantee they revert that decision swiftly and realize that healers do contribute to damage.

Also I hear all these horror stories of healers not healing, or intentionally not healing. In all my time playing this game, I have yet to run into a healer that can do damage and heal and consider that toxic. In fact, I've met more healers that don't do any damage and have died the most, have no mana and heal when nothing's happening, so they're not better healers than me. They are playing their role incorrectly to a design that the devs set, and are griefing their teammates by never touching the very buttons that got you through the story. If they are balancing their healing and damage well and aren't being toxic in chat about it (and we aren't including your self-driven narrative), then you are lying. Is it because you died to the same mechanics that can be dodged? Rezzing you 3 times is a detriment to my mana, so you can stay on the floor until you learn the mechanic or actually pay attention to the telegraphed ground aoes.

And to add insult to injury, a healer's job is heal unavoidable damage and ensure you don't die. Wanting to be completely topped off is a fear for YOU. A healer worth their salt will know when to heal you and efficiently.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

It's situational. Like the current patch trial (both normal and EX): the boss does f***all for like 45 seconds when he's sitting there with his thumb up his butt casting the wind-up spells for his Purgation phase. No mechanics, no autoattacks, nothing. I wouldn't consider healing anyone during that relative eternity of a timegap to be an urgent task. But Barbie's tornadoes? Those would easily clip someone not paying attention, leaving someone at half HP during those is a bad idea in goober-finder.

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The worst part is that this is also frequent enough in Savage as well.
Little Miss Tapeworm does a lot of... yep, nothing for over a minute between 2:21 and 3:44 and again between 9:03 and 10:07. And has a lot of 30s+ gaps between damage happening. Just a few auto attacks but always casting this or that so even they are few.
What are you even supposed to heal there?
Or Tree savage has decent enough damage going out but after Purgation you have this hilarious 1:08 gap. Because healers have to do thinky things and move for a mechanic, that's so exhausting that we need to give them a 1min+ break. I wonder what would happen if SE locked dps kits to 12 combos for 1min+ after they had to play their burst during a mechanic.

I wish we had more trials like Barbie Ex, that one was the most fun in ages for me on healer. Not only was the fight itself relatively fast-paced because there was always something happening, it also had frequent damage and plenty of opportunities for people to eat extra and cause a bit of chaos.