Clockwork Castletown is a terrible map for casual players

And yet, casual players are the overwhelming majority of people participating in both casual and ranked queues.

It's not a mindless straight line from goal to goal, most of the map gimmicks aren't immediately obvious, and they replaced the sprint zones with one-way teleports.

All of these things are *very good* from a competitive standpoint, except for maybe having too many gimmicks going on at once, but they are *awful* from a casual standpoint. Made worse by them trying to force the new map on people.

I can't imagine how much it sucks to be new to CC and trying to learn, while also trying to make sense of the only map that isn't a mindless straight line from side to side. It's clearly way too much for the average player in the "Gold and below" bracket.

Why is Square-Enix so fucking out of touch with their actual playerbase? Who actually thought a map designed like this made sense to be released into a general map pool?

Feel like I have to Google a savage raid mech guide to try the new map just too much going on. Should be easier mechs for casual and harder mechs for ranked mode simple as that just like normal and savage content in PvE.

While you're not wrong, I would say give it a little bit. It took people a while to stop standing in bombs and tornadoes I'm sure eventually people will stop running off solo to die or standing on the mats wondering what happened when they flip or stop starring at los attacks and afking in the chopping circle. Right?

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Originally Posted by Elfidan

While you're not wrong, I would say give it a little bit. It took people a while to stop standing in bombs and tornadoes I'm sure eventually people will stop running off solo to die or standing on the mats wondering what happened when they flip or stop starring at los attacks and afking in the chopping circle. Right?

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That's optimistic, but hopefully it pans out. I really do like Clockwork Castletown, it's just miserable to get newbies on your team on that map because it's overwhelming for them.

Yeah, I agree with that assessment one hundred percent.

the best tactic ive found for dealing with this map is the "everyone group up" before the match and put a dorito on you, side benefit is you get alot of comms

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Originally Posted by RyanCousland

the best tactic ive found for dealing with this map is the "everyone group up" before the match and put a dorito on you, side benefit is you get alot of comms

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Pretty much what I do, yeah. I even put waymarks on doorways I want people to group up into as I predict enemies to pick certain routes.

The doorway system is really nice and in my personal opinion the map layout is gorgeous. many said it is not as great for melees, but I disagree - so many corners to use and so many alternate paths make this map really great in my opinion.

*looks at Cloud Nine with severe contempt*

As much as there's mechanical jank on the map, I find the visibility due higher walls being one of the biggest offenders. Especially in Casual games you have people all over the map running around lost and taking random fights with people from other team that are equally lost.

It's funny because my experience has been somewhat opposite. Casuals are very scaredy cats and they tend to not try out stupid stuff like running all around like I've seen it literally every time in diam/crystal. Not saying that casuals are always like that though, far from it, but overall while casuals are a lot less receptive in my experience to "Fall back and regroup", which is not a problem inherent to castletown, melees that aren't in diam/crystal seem less inclined to think they're hot shit. How many ranked games the team lost because everybody was fighting in their own little corner of the map?

The hidden doors are nice and all, and they actually help melees a lot in my opinion. It's especially nasty when you're playing ranged and you suddenly have melees coming out of nowhere from behind, which can be extremely lethal. If anything, that and the fact that players don't seem to be able to stick together half of the time on this map (I agree the latter is a skill issue and not a map issue don't get me wrong), it favors melees a lot.

If anything, they could perhaps remove some of the map gimmicks for the casual mode. It's already too much in ranked.

In my opinion the new map is great and they should go even harder on the gimmicks for future maps. Alexander map with height error going off and magnets, kefka fake aoes, there's a lot they can take from PvE. We need more and way harder gimmicks, as hard as literal savage raids.

The PvP system we have now is so simple that there's basically zero skill expression. It's so boring and the 'no items final destination' maps like Palaistra only exacerbate this. I think they should lean into what makes FFXIV special, and borrow more from the PvE side of the game.

Some purists might balk at this, but it's a fact that this will raise the skill ceiling of the mode. If you're the only one good enough to do savage level mechanics on top of the usual PvP stuff, you'll have a greater chance of being able to measurably carry the match.

I don't know, the new map is kind of underwhelming honestly. Yes the design is confusing thanks to the camera getting hooked on things constantly, the floor traps, I swear those things are larger than they appear as I've seen people get flipped even while clearly off the damned things, though this could well just be the old system sync issue showing up again. The secret doors are an interesting idea, but honestly, haven't felt any real compulsion to really use them, in fact I know one at least to avoid at nearly all times because "ta-da killzone on you!"

As for the adds, they're forgettable. If you have any experience dealing with such mechanics in PVE, you're almost never going to fumble dealing with them, only likely to get unlucky if you're still attacking a foe and you get turned towards a gaze attack at the last moment. You're almost definitely not going to get hit by the other one unless the other team locks you in place for seven or so seconds (which means you're dead anyways).

I do like the coin drops at least helping charge LBs faster, but this is honestly more an addition than a part of the inherent design. As to whom this favors more, I feel it tilts slightly towards melees and tanks, but only in select hallways between rooms, there's almost zero cover from ranged otherwise.

Honestly the biggest issue with this map is that the snowball effect you see on other maps, is even more obvious and difficult to overcome here. While not impossible, it's not uncommon to see one team almost capping victory node before any kind of recovery can be made, and much faster than what happens on the other three. This could just simply be because the map is still fresh, but I get the sense that something is slightly skewed somewhere depending on compositions, and how much effort the attacker needs to make to keep their momentum, which is weird since in theory the goal post is closer to spawn than any other map. Either way, there's some thoughts about it: it's not bad, but it's not quite the hype.

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Originally Posted by Myon88

In my opinion the new map is great and they should go even harder on the gimmicks for future maps. Alexander map with height error going off and magnets, kefka fake aoes, there's a lot they can take from PvE. We need more and way harder gimmicks, as hard as literal savage raids.

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That would be a pretty bold move, though I doubt it'd find much love in the regular queues. Also there is the issue that any issue with latency or how the server queues things up that things up tends to show up more in PvP than anywhere else. Unless they seriously cut down respawn timers or something, I can see plenty of people just getting fed up with such gimmicks before the first week is out. Still, is food for thought.

I thought the new map was going to have too much going on in it, but as a ranked player, I feel like it's got plenty enough to keep things interesting more so than the other maps. I do get people are going to have a hard time understanding the mechanics and getting a hang of things, but enough information about what the mechanics are have been provided, and the map shows where the trick doors lead, so with adequate time and play, I believe anyone can understand the basics of the new map.

If it's a skill issue, which I honestly think it might be, I wouldn't mind having map pools be exclusive to things people are looking for. Easy maps for people trying to take it easy, but that's not realistic for the state of PvP as it stands now in FF. There's no room to give people separate options, we all have to drink from the same well.

I sure would hate it if we stopped getting interesting maps because people don't want to improve and just grind rewards. Because if we cater maps to them, we'd just be left with bland maps after they've farmed what they needed and stop queueing.

The Map is fine it self. New/Causal players will always die until they learn jobs buttons and map mechanic anyways. Prepare a safe and mindless map would be pointless for new/causal players. What bugs me the most is more like throwers/Afkers/spammer on match. Which dev team still no idea how to fix it. So I don't rank until dev team make any change.
Though I do feel sorry causal/new player at casual mode whom keep getting murder by me....

If there was no skill expression, games wouldn't be that lopsided, and most would be pretty tight.

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Originally Posted by ShinyChariot

I thought the new map was going to have too much going on in it, but as a ranked player, I feel like it's got plenty enough to keep things interesting more so than the other maps. I do get people are going to have a hard time understanding the mechanics and getting a hang of things, but enough information about what the mechanics are have been provided, and the map shows where the trick doors lead, so with adequate time and play, I believe anyone can understand the basics of the new map.

If it's a skill issue, which I honestly think it might be, I wouldn't mind having map pools be exclusive to things people are looking for. Easy maps for people trying to take it easy, but that's not realistic for the state of PvP as it stands now in FF. There's no room to give people separate options, we all have to drink from the same well.

I sure would hate it if we stopped getting interesting maps because people don't want to improve and just grind rewards. Because if we cater maps to them, we'd just be left with bland maps after they've farmed what they needed and stop queueing.

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My problem isn't that the map is easy or hard, or whatever that means, my problem is that the gimmicks get in the way of actual pvp.

the map is terrible but it is better than yet another boring map with nothing on it

I'm actually curious if anyone here has had different experiences or strategies when it comes to opening, since 99% of the time players seem to rush the front door and go to what I personally consider a deathtrap. Fortunately they often do the same on the other side, but if they don't you're gonna suffer, especially from AoEs, all clumped there at the door exit. I have seen some funny things happen, like a DRK showing up, sucking everybody in, and a full team wipe before even the crystal is unlocked.

So, is it a glue issue, or is there a legit strat behind doing this? It's so much safer to just go the standard way while your back is mostly covered...

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Originally Posted by Valence

I'm actually curious if anyone here has had different experiences or strategies when it comes to opening, since 99% of the time players seem to rush the front door and go to what I personally consider a deathtrap. Fortunately they often do the same on the other side, but if they don't you're gonna suffer, especially from AoEs, all clumped there at the door exit. I have seen some funny things happen, like a DRK showing up, sucking everybody in, and a full team wipe before even the crystal is unlocked.

So, is it a glue issue, or is there a legit strat behind doing this? It's so much safer to just go the standard way while your back is mostly covered...

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i never take the door, so i think its more of a dunce issue of your general video game enjoyer. you are playing with randy andy, after all...
blueberries will do blueberry things. it is the way of the universe

Well yeah, then let's say it's a skill/glue issue, then what am I supposed to do? If I don't follow, I'm not even helping and I leave them 1v4 as ranged player. If I go another way, I'm mega exposed and if they even notice me and jump me, I would essentially have leroyed them away from my team.

This is slowly starting to turn me off that map altogether, even though I don't hate the map per se. I just think that random players are unable to cope with its specifications and it makes the whole experience way more lopsided and miserable most of the time. Now then the elephant in the room is, do we keep blaming the human races for being monkeys, or do we adjust the map designs with that in mind? Truly there has to be some kind of balance to reach there? Could we consider closing those doors for at least until the crystal is unlocked?

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Originally Posted by Valence

Well yeah, then let's say it's a skill/glue issue, then what am I supposed to do? If I don't follow, I'm not even helping and I leave them 1v4 as ranged player. If I go another way, I'm mega exposed and if they even notice me and jump me, I would essentially have leroyed them away from my team.

This is slowly starting to turn me off that map altogether, even though I don't hate the map per se. I just think that random players are unable to cope with its specifications and it makes the whole experience way more lopsided and miserable most of the time.

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you have to simply not care about the result. otherwise youll never enjoy it. playing with randoms will always be this way

map is okay but the fucking crystal moves the wrong way

I don't think players being bad at the game is a good reason to not design more complex maps. Most players aren't great at PvE either, should every boss be Sastasha level?

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Originally Posted by anna-steele

you have to simply not care about the result. otherwise youll never enjoy it. playing with randoms will always be this way

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I mean, there is not caring about the ladder, and not caring at all, but for the latter you'd need to have lost all will to live at that point. It's not about caring or tryharding on the ladder, it's just about caring getting decent games. The ones that end under 2min because of that very problem I mentioned, I find that they're a waste of time and energy, and feel bad no matter the side you're on.

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Originally Posted by CidHeiral

I don't think players being bad at the game is a good reason to not design more complex maps. Most players aren't great at PvE either, should every boss be Sastasha level?

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That's a valid point, but as far as I can see the players that actually seem to have noticed not to do that on that specific map:

1) can be counted on the digit of a single hand per DC
2) don't even seem to be tied to actual pvp skill or rank, they also do the same bullshit in diam/crystal

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Originally Posted by Valence

I mean, there is not caring about the ladder, and not caring at all, but for the latter you'd need to have lost all will to live at that point. It's not about caring or tryharding on the ladder, it's just about caring getting decent games. The ones that end under 2min because of that very problem I mentioned, I find that they're a waste of time and energy, and feel bad no matter the side you're on.

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lose all will to live? lets not be so dramatic. if the game is going to end it 2 minutes, then let it end in 2 minutes and play another round. or just avoid the map. it goes away after an hour or so. you cannot control the cosmic forces of the blueberry, youll drive yourself mad trying to do so.

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Originally Posted by anna-steele

lose all will to live? lets not be so dramatic. if the game is going to end it 2 minutes, then let it end in 2 minutes and play another round. or just avoid the map. it goes away after an hour or so. you cannot control the cosmic forces of the blueberry, youll drive yourself mad trying to do so.

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That's what I'm already doing. Why are you moving the goalposts? You told me to not care about the result. I don't really care about them already. I care about the game we're getting, and this map doesn't deliver much, which is my feedback about it.

I'm really unsure what is the point you're trying to make here? If that was that I should just not even care about the fun or quality of games I'm getting, then no, that would just be apathetic and sad.

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Originally Posted by CidHeiral

I don't think players being bad at the game is a good reason to not design more complex maps. Most players aren't great at PvE either, should every boss be Sastasha level?

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This isn't a functional analogy. For one, yes, that is *exactly* what they do - every single normal and dungeon boss is a complete joke, they are all "sastasha level." Normal modes are so easy that they fucking nerfed Into the Cold, probably the first time in a *long* time they've done any kind of single player/normal mode content that isn't a hand-holding straight line from start to finish, and people bitched incessantly about it because "omg, I have to actually *think about what I'm doing??*" So, yeah - all bosses *are* "sastasha level."

Second, for any kind of high-end/challenging content, *we are allowed to create and manage our own teams for it.* People virtually never enter savages with a randomly assigned group - the only place that does this is Japan DCs, where it's socially expected that you only enter Raid Finder for reclears, and my understanding is it's a pretty major faux pas to enter RF without being ready to clear/having already cleared at least once. On NA and EU, savage is done exclusively through Party Finder or pre-arranged statics, where you can vet each and every single person in your team and have full control over your team composition.

Moreover, in raids, you have time to stop and do Q&A sessions if people are making mistakes. You have time to tell the group to take 5 minutes for water/bio and to review a guide for the phase or mechanic you're progging. You can essentially call "time out" whenever you want. Yeah, sure, you might need to re-zone eventually, but even if you're committed to "we stop after zone time out," the time limit is pretty generous.

Compare this to literally *any* PvP activity. We can't queue into Frontlines, Rival Wings, or CC with a full group. In CC, we can *only* solo queue. There are no time-outs or intermissions in these modes to answer questions or discuss strategy, and in CC you can't change your class once you enter the game, even before the match actually begins. There's no option to re-queue with the same people you just had (though they did just add it to custom lobbies, probably for the sake of convenience.) Hell, in CC you can't even actually chat, you have to rely on a very limited set of quickchat commands. Lastly, there is no way to enter Frontlines or Rival Wings matches to practice things, and entering CC requires creating a custom match, which requires several players.

It's not remotely comparable. Square-Enix basically does everything they can to ensure that people cannot coordinate or teach each other in PvP. Given that, they should *not* be designing maps around assuming people are playing well and coordinating, because that's explicitly not how it works in reality. Or they should design two versions of each map - one for Duty Finder, and one for Custom Matches. Replace the doors with typical sprint zones in the DF version, for example.

It's trash in comp too.
Please remove it. I actually look every
time to see if it's on rotation. My main issue is the walls/camera and I can't really see anything going on with all the gimmicks everywhere. The place is too tiny for all this lmao.

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Originally Posted by Valence

That's what I'm already doing. Why are you moving the goalposts? You told me to not care about the result. I don't really care about them already. I care about the game we're getting, and this map doesn't deliver much, which is my feedback about it.

I'm really unsure what is the point you're trying to make here? If that was that I should just not even care about the fun or quality of games I'm getting, then no, that would just be apathetic and sad.

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no goal posts were moved, dont use terms you are unfamiliar with. yes the map is terrible. just dont play it if you are "losing the will to live"
lol

I don't find this map particularly difficult, although I still get confused sometimes, I'm not very good with space until I learn any location, so not surprising. And I do not think that making this map easier for casual matches will give something to novice players and those who want to try to jump higher. I will try to explain my point of view.

I've faced the current high rankers many times in casual matches and it's a good practice. It is possible to study their tactics and combat habits and roughly understand how they use the location and its capabilities. For example, to understand that player N goes to door 1 in one scenario, to door 2 in another scenario, and depending on his class and the setup of the enemy group, is behind corner 2 in another scenario. So later, when I see this player in the rankings on this map, I can say with a 90% probability what awaits us. So next time for me personally, there will be no literal effect of stunning by surprise.

In addition, experienced players who come to casual matches to warm up will not be interested in playing this because the map will be different. Well, the advantage that you get simply because this is easier in casual is very doubtful. I understand that many people do not want to waste an hour and a half of playing time bypassing this map if they do not like it, and do not want to see crowds of confused players and loose because of that, but this is the reality. Subjectively, I see here more opportunities than troubles.

As for tactical interaction within the group through a quick chat, here I absolutely agree. These opportunities are currently very weak. I would like to have the messages "Help!", "Attacking from the rear", "Attacking from the flank!", "Onslaught!", "Enemy in the rear", "Enemy from the flank", and not all these "Nice job!", "Good match!" and other crap. It would also be nice if ignore marks, which are really important, could only be placed on the enemy, and not used to abuse group members.

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Originally Posted by anna-steele

no goal posts were moved, dont use terms you are unfamiliar with. yes the map is terrible. just dont play it if you are "losing the will to live"
lol

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Still unsure what point you're trying to make by replying to me since the beginning?

I'm not losing the will to live by playing it. You should actually read what i'm writing, maybe that's the issue?

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Originally Posted by Valence

Still unsure what point you're trying to make by replying to me since the beginning?

I'm not losing the will to live by playing it. You should actually read what i'm writing, maybe that's the issue?

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i am reading what you are writing. that is, in fact, the issue.

very fun using salted earth to drag eveyone into the robot aoe

Castlework Castle town is a terrible map. Period.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Well yeah, then let's say it's a skill/glue issue, then what am I supposed to do? If I don't follow, I'm not even helping and I leave them 1v4 as ranged player. If I go another way, I'm mega exposed and if they even notice me and jump me, I would essentially have leroyed them away from my team.

This is slowly starting to turn me off that map altogether, even though I don't hate the map per se. I just think that random players are unable to cope with its specifications and it makes the whole experience way more lopsided and miserable most of the time. Now then the elephant in the room is, do we keep blaming the human races for being monkeys, or do we adjust the map designs with that in mind? Truly there has to be some kind of balance to reach there? Could we consider closing those doors for at least until the crystal is unlocked?

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I'm waiting to see if people start catching on with how they are starting. I will admit that I was caught off guard following the crowd. I happened to catch on after a good 5 games and laughed about it.

I don't like the map being played on ranked. However, I had 2 easy nights, and I ended up going from bronze to platinum. I'll revisit later on and post my thoughts once I get enough high level games in.

New map is fantastic. Very fun, lots of tricks to be explored and discovered. Much more preferable to Cloud Nine or Volcanic Heart.

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Originally Posted by Mistress_Irika

I'm waiting to see if people start catching on with how they are starting. I will admit that I was caught off guard following the crowd. I happened to catch on after a good 5 games and laughed about it.

I don't like the map being played on ranked. However, I had 2 easy nights, and I ended up going from bronze to platinum. I'll revisit later on and post my thoughts once I get enough high level games in.

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They still sure haven't on my DC. More than on any other map, the winner on this map usually is the team that sticks together. Scattering all around is a surefire way to disaster.

I also do think that the design layout of this one is problematic somewhere because everything snowballs so much worse. People say the crystal points are very exposed for melees, but I somewhat disagree in the actual result since melees can also take cover and hide behind the inner corners of those points. Coming in to storm that point is a nightmare, because while you can hide behind the corners for sure, the entry point with the mats is a no go because it forces you to commit or die from the mats, and the two other venues are extremely narrow points where the first person to peek out will get stunned and pummeled to death, and i'm not speaking about a stack of people showing up and eating massive AoE nukes all at once (or a sneaky DRK salted earth to pin them in). Unlike other maps, you have to actually run a long way to get to the crystal and I feel it's a problem, it's like storming a machinegun point by running over a long distance without any cover.

In my opinion the map new tricks and layout with many paths encourages players to bad strategies (like using the doors for openers, running all around the different paths, etc), while the actual winner is as usual, and even more than usual, to stick together. The crystal control points are even better for that since there is a wide enough room to spread out to prevent the enemy to apply too much AoE pressure. Even C9 crystal points aren't that wide open, like on all maps so far they're in a corner, but on castletown, they're right in the middle of a highway. On top of it, other maps have various entries all around those crystal points, where castletown only has realistically 2 at very opposite sides, which means splitting your team if you want to take advantage of this. The mats, once again, are extremely hazardous to go through when the enemy sees you coming from miles away and can just stunlock you there and giggle.

tl;dr: the attacking points for the crystal checkpoints on the map are mediocre/bad and that's what contributes to even more lopsided games, much like the amount of pathways encouraging people to split even more.

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Originally Posted by Valence

They still sure haven't on my DC. More than on any other map, the winner on this map usually is the team that sticks together. Scattering all around is a surefire way to disaster.

I also do think that the design layout of this one is problematic somewhere because everything snowballs so much worse. People say the crystal points are very exposed for melees, but I somewhat disagree in the actual result since melees can also take cover and hide behind the inner corners of those points. Coming in to storm that point is a nightmare, because while you can hide behind the corners for sure, the entry point with the mats is a no go because it forces you to commit or die from the mats, and the two other venues are extremely narrow points where the first person to peek out will get stunned and pummeled to death, and i'm not speaking about a stack of people showing up and eating massive AoE nukes all at once (or a sneaky DRK salted earth to pin them in). Unlike other maps, you have to actually run a long way to get to the crystal and I feel it's a problem, it's like storming a machinegun point by running over a long distance without any cover.

In my opinion the map new tricks and layout with many paths encourages players to bad strategies (like using the doors for openers, running all around the different paths, etc), while the actual winner is as usual, and even more than usual, to stick together. The crystal control points are even better for that since there is a wide enough room to spread out to prevent the enemy to apply too much AoE pressure. Even C9 crystal points aren't that wide open, like on all maps so far they're in a corner, but on castletown, they're right in the middle of a highway. On top of it, other maps have various entries all around those crystal points, where castletown only has realistically 2 at very opposite sides, which means splitting your team if you want to take advantage of this. The mats, once again, are extremely hazardous to go through when the enemy sees you coming from miles away and can just stunlock you there and giggle.

tl;dr: the attacking points for the crystal checkpoints on the map are mediocre/bad and that's what contributes to even more lopsided games, much like the amount of pathways encouraging people to split even more.

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I think the only reasonable point of entry is through the side door and trying to jump them before they can do it to you.

They really need to at least make the visibility better on that map. Some of the "eye" mechanics can reach you from beyond your sight range if you aren't paying attention while fighting and the walls make some of the corner spots claustrophobic.

I'd still rank the map above C9 but worse than the rest, it's playable but kinda janky.

I actually prefer C9 even though it lacks fundamental cover (which can help games to snowball bad as well). The middle of C9 is actually not very far off from the open shooting range of Palaistra in the middle. What it lacks is the side ramps that go all the way unless they're lit up. The real issue I have with C9 is the area behind the crystal checkpoints, that are also open as hell and have the same issue that castletown actually, but located around the spawn point rather than the checkpoint: if the enemy has taken position as a team here, going out of the spawn is literally jumping under a machinegun.