PvP gameplay balancing

PvP now with the spell changes and new mode is much better than it used to be but in my personal opinion there is still a lot of progress to be done.
I think that as it is, the gameplay doesn't feel as good as it can be and it can be improved with very minor changes. My suggestions are that the HP needs to be raised a bit and recup should be a cooldown and maybe have 2 charges if one isn't enough. This is so people don't keep spamming heals to survive but also more HP so you don't get one shot casually. The other thing is the CC (crowd control). There is simply too much of it and it is very oppressive. Remove many of the CC and increase the cooldown of purify so you end up with fewer CC but more impactful.
My reasoning for these changes is so that people can actually play their characters. As it is now you might go from getting booped, to pulled, to stunned by one person, into another stun etc and it's not fun. It's also not fun when you are on the offensive and someone keeps healing and running. in general I'm not a big fun of the gameplay being this fast when it comes to its combat outside of ults. I think pvp needs to be more methodical and less mash the buttons fast.
There are almost 0 things that I'd want ff14 to copy from other games since it does its own thing and it does it well but for pvp they need to take a look at wow imho.

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Originally Posted by Metalface_Villain

PvP now with the spell changes and new mode is much better than it used to be but in my personal opinion there is still a lot of progress to be done.
I think that as it is, the gameplay doesn't feel as good as it can be and it can be improved with very minor changes. My suggestions are that the HP needs to be raised a bit and recup should be a cooldown and maybe have 2 charges if one isn't enough. This is so people don't keep spamming heals to survive but also more HP so you don't get one shot casually. The other thing is the CC (crowd control). There is simply too much of it and it is very oppressive. Remove many of the CC and increase the cooldown of purify so you end up with fewer CC but more impactful.
My reasoning for these changes is so that people can actually play their characters. As it is now you might go from getting booped, to pulled, to stunned by one person, into another stun etc and it's not fun. It's also not fun when you are on the offensive and someone keeps healing and running. in general I'm not a big fun of the gameplay being this fast when it comes to its combat outside of ults. I think pvp needs to be more methodical and less mash the buttons fast.
There are almost 0 things that I'd want ff14 to copy from other games since it does its own thing and it does it well but for pvp they need to take a look at wow imho.

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Recuperates limiting factor is your MP. You can only cast it 4 times before you’re out. It does regen but pretty slowly, unless you let them drink a potion (takes like 5 seconds and is interrupted by damage). It doesn’t need a cooldown. I agree with most of the rest except for your solution to CC. CC in general just needs to be reduced. Increasing the CD on recuperate would only exasperate this problem and make already OP jobs (looking at you dark knight) that much more ridiculous.

I think we need to do something with HP so we can spend more time fighting than healing. It's actually annoying that you spam the damn heal in the middle of a rotation in the midst of everything going on. The whole CC thing has been an issue forever and they still didn't fix it LOL.

yeah fighting a tank or healer that can spam 4 big heals between their own abilities that give em survivability is peak pvp gameplay :|

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Originally Posted by Metalface_Villain

yeah fighting a tank or healer that can spam 4 big heals between their own abilities that give em survivability is peak pvp gameplay :|

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So if we look at AST, for example, what would you propose? There is no insta-kill damage spell, there are no high-damage DPS skills, there is gravity with a CC, other than that if you're up against a melee you have to heal up to survive.

Previously, it would have been even more healing focussed and less damage focussed as a healer, whereas now all healers are real more "supports", especially as a SGE- however as WHM, they shouldn't have to spam heals in their "rotation" ( not there really is one in PVP).

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

So if we look at AST, for example, what would you propose? There is no insta-kill damage spell, there are no high-damage DPS skills, there is gravity with a CC, other than that if you're up against a melee you have to heal up to survive.

Previously, it would have been even more healing focussed and less damage focussed as a healer, whereas now all healers are real more "supports", especially as a SGE- however as WHM, they shouldn't have to spam heals in their "rotation" ( not there really is one in PVP).

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Well, it’s still a healer. Imagine a healer with the killing potential of a dps or survivability of a tank…

Dps get to do damage. Tanks get to soak damage. Healers get to replenish health. These are the things that sperate them from others. If we started making roles good at everything, or even multiple things, we walk into a territory of imbalance

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Originally Posted by Metalface_Villain

The other thing is the CC (crowd control). There is simply too much of it and it is very oppressive. Remove many of the CC and increase the cooldown of purify so you end up with fewer CC but more impactful.
My reasoning for these changes is so that people can actually play their characters. As it is now you might go from getting booped, to pulled, to stunned by one person, into another stun etc and it's not fun. It's also not fun when you are on the offensive and someone keeps healing and running.

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PvP is very methodical at its core. You just haven't noticed it yet, or haven't developed the right frame of mind for how to go about it. It's not unusual, because there's a lot more technical aspects to take into consideration if you want to build a methodical playstyle around it, and usually that's not a concern for most people playing this game mode. If you are referring to frontlines (since you're talking about multiple players able to CC you to death and finding no chance to purify), tactical ability, situational awareness, and positioning are all equally as important as player's mastery over their job skills.

What most of the problem you're describing is, most people call that positioning. If you position yourself well enough, you won't die, or have ample time to adjust to a bad situation (and purify out to safety). If you position yourself poorly, you'll die or be caught in a bad spot and die. Positioning your character well is just as important as using your skills and dodging mechanics like in PvE content. If you step in a place where you can easily get hit by enemies, you'll have a higher chance of dying. If you get left behind because everyone else ran and you didn't respond in time? You'll get caught out and die. Most players tend to not realize that they're positioned in a very poor place and die as a result. PvE might have indicators for AoE, but in PvP, it's up to you and your opponents to spot the places where someone is out of place and respond accordingly.

With the adjustment to job damage in Frontlines, the theoretical HP of all jobs have actually been raised greatly, even if you can't see it, so the problem isn't an increase in HP, or lackthereof. The lack of HP you feel, is actually because I've noticed an upwards trend of players improving. It's not that CC is crazy, it's just that players are improving and being able to spot these weaknesses a lot better lately, and play accordingly in response (which isn't strange, we just had a tomestone event and lots of players are becoming increasingly familiar with the map and their job in PvP). I also have to equally step up my game and make a lot less mistakes that I usually can get away with in the past or I'll be dying a lot. Purify is actually plenty impactful as it is, and using it appropriately to escape situations properly demonstrates your ability in tactical ability, positioning and situational awareness. You can't sprint if you recuperate. If someone can get away while spamming recuperate, it means they weren't being focused heavily enough in the first place to get them killed - they positioned themselves well enough to avoid a death.

Do note: Mashing buttons faster doesn't mean more actions will be happening any faster than you would in PvE. Frontlines is still subject to a GCD and OGCD actions. Their only difference is the priority of how they're used. In that respect, Crystalline Conflict has a higher requirement to micromanagement in skill due to being matched with more players of similar skill levels to yourself, but limited in its macro management since you only have to focus on at most 9 other players. However, Frontlines actually has a bigger theoretical potential to reach exactly because of the increased chaos introduces a lot more variables into the equation when compared to Crystalline Conflict. To be at the peak of Frontlines, you have to pay attention to both micro and macro control, as well as any uncontrollable factors that can suddenly prop up. This is what really confuses people because the disparity in the highest peak of a player's skill can be extremely vast due to all these other considerations that influence the way they play, but it will never affect most people because the highest point of the gameplay requires too much effort in proportion to its gains that most people don't actually consider it. And honestly, it's how vast that a player's individual skill expression can be with PvP's level of toolkit that keeps me returning to Frontlines. The more I play, the more I realize there are lots of different ways for me to improve if I really set my mind to chasing a complete victory, but I can be perfectly content without that knowledge if I just want to play well enough to make a difference without that kind of stress. Crowd control only helps this, not take away from it. If Purify had its cooldown lengthened and most jobs lost their CC, we would be in no different state from bursting everyone down to get a kill.

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

Well, it’s still a healer. Imagine a healer with the killing potential of a dps

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Poor SGE, you never even had a chance.

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or survivability of a tank…

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Like melee DPS?

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Dps get to do damage.

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And heal, and soak as much damage as tanks, and usually access to hard CC, and sometimes an alternative self-cleanse, and have instant-kill mechanics, and party buffs, and...

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Healers get to replenish health.

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A severely limited amount of it, but, yeah, they sure do.

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If we started making roles good at everything, or even multiple things, we walk into a territory of imbalance

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Unlike those well-balanced, perfectly designed Melee DPS, who only have the basic essentials so that they can survive on the battlefield.


I really wish that they doubled down on the "stop looking at jobs as roles in PVP" thing. I wish my AST could be a death-machine, if I so chose. Oh well.

Have you ever actually stepped foot into PvP? Positioning is meaningless when control if your character can be taken away in 5 different ways in 3 seconds. And due to hamster wheel servers purity’s immunity basically doesn’t exist.

seeing how you wrote your autobiography, i stopped reading at "you haven't noticed it". i have played proper pvp in wow for many years and at a decent rating, i don't think there is that much depth here that i'm missing. the convo here is about constructive criticism in hopes of positive changes for pvp, i have no interest in people shilling for the game and not seeing obvious faults, especially when said shilling is done in book length.

I do wish players just had bigger HP pools instead of having to rely on recuperate spam to attempt to last longer.

Sometimes you just get deleted from existence with no chance to react at all, which is not helped by the slow server ticks making it so even if you try to react it's often too late already.

It also makes it harder to tell whether or not a given player is actually at risk of dying unless you're constantly glancing at the team displays to see how much MP they have left.

they need to add more healing spells for healers

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I do wish players just had bigger HP pools instead of having to rely on recuperate spam to attempt to last longer.

Sometimes you just get deleted from existence with no chance to react at all, which is not helped by the slow server ticks making it so even if you try to react it's often too late already.

It also makes it harder to tell whether or not a given player is actually at risk of dying unless you're constantly glancing at the team displays to see how much MP they have left.

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I could agree with this actually. Remove recuperate altogether and double health pools. Except for tanks/heals

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Originally Posted by kevin_satron

they need to add more healing spells for healers

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No, playing against WHM + AST that know what they do already results in games that take forever.

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Originally Posted by Metalface_Villain

seeing how you wrote your autobiography, i stopped reading at "you haven't noticed it". i have played proper pvp in wow for many years and at a decent rating, i don't think there is that much depth here that i'm missing. the convo here is about constructive criticism in hopes of positive changes for pvp, i have no interest in people shilling for the game and not seeing obvious faults, especially when said shilling is done in book length.

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This reply is way less constructive than any post so far, ironically.

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

Well, it’s still a healer. Imagine a healer with the killing potential of a dps or survivability of a tank…

Dps get to do damage. Tanks get to soak damage. Healers get to replenish health. These are the things that sperate them from others. If we started making roles good at everything, or even multiple things, we walk into a territory of imbalance

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Except in PvP healers don't get to replenish health (in any meaningful way), that's what Recuperate is for. People are responsible for their own health.

Healers in PvP play a support role, that's it. They're buffers and debuffers.

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Originally Posted by ThaCa

No, playing against WHM + AST that know what they do already results in games that take forever.

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Playing with Dps who don't know how to coordinate burst on targets is what causes games to take forever. Spread damage is easily recoverable. Two DPS on one healer or non tank target is pretty much a death on demand.

Honestly, we just need Purify to also block Draw-In effects, grant you the buff even if you don't dispel something (failsafe against server ticks), basically like how it used to be. We also need some CC immunities. 4sec for Stun after it fades (They can rebalance abilities to help off set this such as Ninja's low potency chain 2sec stun), 3sec Heavy/Bind and 6sec Silence.

I'm just irritated that with Purify up I'll still get dragged into DRK Salted Earth even if it has 1-2sec left on it from just dispelling a Stun.

I've always thought Recuperate needed a charge system as well. Everyone basically gets a free full heal with having full mana and that just makes some fights feel kinda bad. If it got nerfed though, I'd like to see damage across the board go down a smidge too, to compensate. 2 Charges on a 10sec cooldown seems fine (maybe even take 3-5sec off if an Assist/Killing Blow is achieved to encourage kill secures).

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Originally Posted by Conadrium

Have you ever actually stepped foot into PvP? Positioning is meaningless when control if your character can be taken away in 5 different ways in 3 seconds. And due to hamster wheel servers purity’s immunity basically doesn’t exist.

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Yes, and I play it well enough to understand the intricacies behind how to win consistently in Frontlines and can apply it to the games I play if I'm motivated enough to win.

I won't lie, I thought positioning was meaningless at first too until I learned how incredibly impactful it can be when I position correctly. Positioning well is also a tactical maneuver as well. Positioning itself is not a standalone ability, it's intrinsically tied to how well you can understand your opponents. You have to stop thinking about the opposing enemies as AIs and think of them as actual players. Players who are limited by what they can see and what they can do, unlike AIs who can instantly respond regardless of range. Positioning in their line of focus is a key factor to controlling the amount of damage you take (aggro) and for how long you will face it. Once you figure out blind spots and what players usually have their camera angles at based on the way they move and target, you can find places to position yourself and attack or run away. There are many ways to find an opening and create an opening, but if you charge headlong into the enemy's field of vision, you're going to get focused fired first. -- This is the biggest mistake people make in frontlines, and it shows after watching players just naturally hit the tank just because they charged in first, and never switch their target either when they become unkillable. The tank has no real aggro control against people who can use their brain. You are not locked into engaging the tank because he hit you like in PvE. People can directly ignore the tank altogether once the other enemies start charging in. However, it's this mentality that shows how positioning can matter - enemies who plan on focusing someone focuses people based on their line of sight. And I don't mean just character's line of sight, but how the player itself will narrow their line of sight when placed under pressure to focus a specific task. You can call this tunnel vision, but it happens to nearly everyone in Frontlines because not many people can consistently and continually be able to keep up with the changes in the battlefield when healing an ally or damaging an enemy. Players who play PvP more often will get better at it, but they still need to actively realize this issue to improve on it (which was why after the tomestone event, you can see a lot of players doing better at following callouts and moving faster - their awareness has improved, but it's still quite limited because they aren't specifically spending some energy to improve map awareness, they just have more mental headspace to keep track of other stuff).

From there, you extrapolate how you can use that to your advantage. Other than coordinating with your group, positioning is the biggest key factor to winning in frontlines by enabling you to continue to build up Battle High and minimizing risks. Being able to position yourself to a good spot within your allies field of vision while not being able to be targeted is what separates bad players and good players -- and directly becomes noticeable over time through the difference of who can maintain and gain Battle High.

People who play Crystalline Conflict in high level matches already do this very well at a smaller scale - through environmental barriers to cancel far range casting, breaking line of sight against ranged enemies, moving past their range, and redirecting their focus to someone else. They are so used to keeping track of multiple things at once that it is much harder for higher rank players to tunnel vision as easily in making a mistake. This is a technical skill acquired from training their awareness. However, Frontlines is much more things to keep track of and much less visible indicators. Not to mention just high rank Crystalline Conflict players, even your regular average player will struggle to keep track of everything happening at once. The skill level required is much higher than what most people are willing to spend effort on (assuming they even realize this is a thing), and this is what makes it much easier to catch people off guard because very VERY VERY few people have developed the required awareness for these matches to be able to process every single useful tidbit of information at once to use at their advantage.

Don't get me wrong, the average player can be decent enough at their job and can focus / CC an opposing enemy down. However, that's still within the realm of being tied down to a lack of vision. This is actually what allows ninjas and monks to quickly get kills in chaotic environments using their LB and then escape without much issues, whereas bad ninjas and monks would think it's a free kill and then die because they get focused by running into the enemies' line of sight. Even then, the good players doesn't need to be able to understand every single tidbit of information, they just need to gauge a rough estimate of how the surrounding players are reacting to see if they can sneak a kill.

However, in the very peak of Frontlines gameplay, this level of skill is barely scratching the tip of the iceberg, which is why Frontlines has such huge potential in its gameplay if you're willing to look for aspects you can improve on. You have incredible power to balance the scales to your advantage. The payoff is just winning [1 match] though, so it's more like.. Are you willing to put in THAT much effort to guarantee a victory? If not, you just need to do well enough that your team will be able to win as long as they are decent players, but you can always put more and more effort if you really care about winning this one match.

Or you can be like those crazy masterminds at PvP and can actually influence the game enough using their own methodology to tilt the sides in your favor and get a win. They do exist, and I had the pleasure to get matched with two in Frontlines before, but they're just very few and far in between.

In case someone else goes "Oh but you wrote too much, so I won't read" again... this is already the trimmed down version of my insights to PvP. If you don't want to read, more power to you, but please try not to give that impression of being a frog at the bottom of the well. Otherwise, you look like people who complain about Normal content being too hard because you got hit by an AoE every single time until the duty finished and your justification was that the AoE didn't show the orange indicator until you got hit each time until you died. I mean ... failing to dodge the AoE 4-5 times might be rough, but if you cover your ears and still give the same excuse the other 10 times after someone explains it to you, that's not a problem with the game mode being difficult but a problem with not willing to improve your lack of understanding when someone else points it out for you.

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Originally Posted by Caddo

Honestly, we just need Purify to also block Draw-In effects, grant you the buff even if you don't dispel something (failsafe against server ticks), basically like how it used to be. We also need some CC immunities. 4sec for Stun after it fades (They can rebalance abilities to help off set this such as Ninja's low potency chain 2sec stun), 3sec Heavy/Bind and 6sec Silence.

I'm just irritated that with Purify up I'll still get dragged into DRK Salted Earth even if it has 1-2sec left on it from just dispelling a Stun.

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I think that's mainly because purify works the same way as Esuna or Warden's Paean in this regard. Purify acts as a cleanse, not a knockback immunity. It works against hard CC with debuffs, but against soft CCs that push/pull, it can't really nullify it because there's no 'debuff' to nullify since it acts as a displacement. That's why we also have Arms length in PvE. Would be nice if we have it for PvP, but that's quite specialized of a focus I think.

I feel like the only way to consistently get proper mileage out of Recuperate/Purify/Guard is to start using them pre-emptively (Except you kind of can't in the case of Purify...) because the server ticks are so slow that trying to react won't save you if you have even two players aggressively bursting you sometimes.

The most HP any job has is 63K, and some jobs like NIN can output 30K+ in two GCDs so you can die almost instantly against certain team comps.

I feel like having higher base HP and less/no recuperate would make games more consistent as everyone is going to be getting more mileage out of the effective HP the game provides them instead of having to pray they can actually use recuperate before they die while they're getting focused. Proper guard/purify usage is also more rewarding when you're able to actually get them off instead of trying to wait for an "ideal" situation then getting punished with death.