There is no reward for playing well.

There is no reward for playing well.

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Originally Posted by Claustrum

There is no reward for playing well.

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And the worst post of the day award goes to...

Edit: so there is a reward for playing well?

Edit edit: nevermind, just looked over your other posts, Firemage, you never have anything serious to say about anything. You would never attempt a discussion, you only deliver a pithy one-liner, then smoke-bomb out of the discussion. I repeat my original thesis: There is no ingame reason to actually keep trying to win a match if it looks like your team is gonna lose. I am so tired of people going afk in base after they rush the enemies and die once, but there is no penalty for them doing that, and there is no reward for me to not do that.

Could we have some perk for being the only person on the team who actually tries?

The only good reward for playing well would be to be able to carry a game, not be a complete coinflip with teammates.

The reward for playing well is the increase of your rank and more currency.

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Originally Posted by Curisu

The reward for playing well is the increase of your rank and more currency.

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Okay, but what about matches where it's obvious that your team will not win? Why still play well? You get nothing for being the best player on the losing team.

Or more accurately, my biggest complaint is that the worst player on the winning team gets infinitely more rewarded than the best player on the losing team, and the game frequently picks VERY unfair teams.

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Originally Posted by Claustrum

Or more accurately, my biggest complaint is that the worst player on the winning team gets infinitely more rewarded than the best player on the losing team, and the game frequently picks VERY unfair teams.

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That's how competitive team PvP is. You have that in every PvP game and you can't "fix" that issue.

Sometimes you lose and sometimes the other team wins.

You have to play many round's to make statistics work in your favour.
But when you really play better then everyone else then eventually you will rank higher and win more.

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Originally Posted by Curisu

That's how competitive team PvP is. You have that in every PvP game and you can't "fix" that issue.

Sometimes you lose and sometimes the other team wins.

You have to play many round's to make statistics work in your favour.
But when you really play better then everyone else then eventually you will rank higher and win more.

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Okay. But why attempt to play well when things are going badly?

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Originally Posted by Claustrum

Okay, but what about matches where it's obvious that your team will not win? Why still play well? You get nothing for being the best player on the losing team.

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You still keep trying.

It won't happen all the time, but I have seen CC matches clawed back from having the crystal halfway into the team's goal circle.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

You still keep trying.

It won't happen all the time, but I have seen CC matches clawed back from having the crystal halfway into the team's goal circle.

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Okay. I have a teammate who is afk in the base after dying once from rushing past the point before it unlocks. Why should I keep trying? The afk teammate gets no punishment. I get no reward.

Edit: In fact, if the 4 of us DO manage to claw a victory out of that, it rewards the afk teammate as well. That doesn't seem fair.

There is no penalty for being a toxically bad player beyond just losing a star. There is no reward for being a sweaty tryhard. The pvp CC system encourages immediate doomerism and apathy because there is no penalty for acting in these ways, and there is no reward for fighting against it.

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Originally Posted by Claustrum

Okay. I have a teammate who is afk in the base after dying once from rushing past the point before it unlocks. Why should I keep trying? The afk teammate gets no punishment. I get no reward.

Edit: In fact, if the 4 of us DO manage to claw a victory out of that, it rewards the afk teammate as well. That doesn't seem fair.

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When you stop trying because it looks like a lost round, then you are one of the main reasons for the lose.
Never surrender and always try to win.

Report AFKs and griefer, when they do it regularly then they will get penalised.

But I would not be surprised to see you complaining about having a temp ban in a few weeks.

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Originally Posted by Curisu

When you stop trying because it looks like a lost round, then you are one of the main reasons for the lose.
Never surrender and always try to win.

Report AFKs and griefer, when they do it regularly then they will get penalised.

But I would not be surprised to see you complaining about having a temp ban in a few weeks.

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They don't get banned when I report them, and you should be surprised if I get banned, because I am one of the tryhards. I try so hard that I try to convince people that my hard tries deserve more reward than the afkers and true-heroes-who-can-solo-the-whole-enemy-team that I keep getting teamed with.

Edit: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...86#post6024086 My initial complaint about the fact. I still get into matches with the first person I ever saw afk in a match.

I am not saying us players need to change. I am saying there are problems with the innate incentive structure which make it more tempting to just give up than to attempt to rally together and keep trying.

Tbh, I don't know if they get punished.
But I also just had to write 6 reports in total.
And 5 of them had been in the first season and looked like win trading.

And you probably try so hard that you become angry and frustrated about "bad" teammate's. As a result you become tilted which makes you play bad too, without realising it. And then you are the "bad" player in your team and the main reason you lose.

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Originally Posted by Curisu

Tbh, I don't know if they get punished.
But I also just had to write 6 reports in total.
And 5 of them had been in the first season and looked like win trading.

And you probably try so hard that you become angry and frustrated about "bad" teammate's. As a result you become tilted which makes you play bad too, without realising it. And then you are the "bad" player in your team and the main reason you lose.

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Thanks, I'll stop getting tilted now. But no, I'm completely aware when I'm the turd of the team. I play badly often. What's frustrating is when I'm playing at the top of my game, but some dude on my team is afk in base. Sorry you've only had to deal with that 6 times, but it's been over 20 for me this season, 3 of them were the same guy who kept going offline as soon as he got in the match, then came back online halfway in, only to log back out.

Again, my issue is there is no ingame reason to be the bigger person and keep trying in spite of bad teammates. Society works best when incentive structures benefit us for doing good things, not for being selfish and apathetic.

The problem the OP is trying to point out is more that the skill difference between a good player and an average player of most leagues is negligible (except crystal, the gap between low crystal and high crystal is insane but that's every game), while you know that getting some players in the team on the other hand is almost a guaranteed loss (unless the other team also has some of those). If skill was that important, those players wouldn't be rated as they are.

Okay, to give you a more serious answer.

No matter how big the incentive is, it always is faster to give up and try again with a new team.
And more rewards will lead to more toxicity and bad behaviour.
Like, when a win gives triple the rewards then it is more likely that a "bad" player who maybe just has a bad round or the enemy team has good focus, gets harassed after the game.
You could also make that the round takes longer, but that leads to more frustration when you play for so long and at the end it is for nothing.

These fast rounds with low reward difference is the best way to keep all participants as happy as possible and to have as little time with a "bad" team as possible.
It casual friendly and that's what SE is aiming for.

Also, there could be differences between the ranks and region's.
Because I have not the same experience as you.

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Originally Posted by Valence

The problem the OP is trying to point out is more that the skill difference between a good player and an average player of most leagues is negligible (except crystal, the gap between low crystal and high crystal is insane but that's every game), while you know that getting some players in the team on the other hand is almost a guaranteed loss (unless the other team also has some of those). If skill was that important, those players wouldn't be rated as they are.

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That is a large part of the problem, yes. What I would like to change, however, is to give reasons to keep trying in spite of those players, or penalties for being that player. If you play well enough, you don't lose a star, for example.

tbh I'm not even joking, removing or reducing greatly the loading and introduction time for games would go a great way to dampen the toxicity. We're spending between 1 and 2 full minutes doing nothing while the teams get introduced and the map prepared, which is more than 10-15% of the time of the average game.

The problem with bad teams isn't that they end up taking time or no time, it's that they're crippling your win rate hard and you play lottery essentially based around this, and not proper player skill, as the OP said. Even if I hop into bronze, where there i'll have definitely more impact with my skill, I'll still lose a lot of games if I'm unlucky (also maybe some jobs can carry a lot more than others). And let's not talk about the team that gets full ranged players and get trashed immediately.

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Originally Posted by Curisu

Okay, to give you a more serious answer.

No matter how big the incentive is, it always is faster to give up and try again with a new team.
And more rewards will lead to more toxicity and bad behaviour.
Like, when a win gives triple the rewards then it is more likely that a "bad" player who maybe just has a bad round or the enemy team has good focus, gets harassed after the game.
You could also make that the round takes longer, but that leads to more frustration when you play for so long and at the end it is for nothing.

These fast rounds with low reward difference is the best way to keep all participants as happy as possible and to have as little time with a "bad" team as possible.
It casual friendly and that's what SE is aiming for.

Also, there could be differences between the ranks and region's.
Because I have not the same experience as you.

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None of this has anything to do with rewarding a player for playing well or punishing players for intentionally throwing a match. So... yeah? Maybe it would lead to more toxic behavior to just offer triple rewards with no other stipulations? I dunno how you can have triple rewards when it comes to comparative ranks though. You get 3 stars for winning instead of 1? I don't think that fixes any problem.

Maybe instead, if you play well enough, you have a chance to not lose a star if your team loses the match?

Personally, I won't say I don't feel bad when getting dragged down to the bottomless pits of hell by improbably loss streaks, but on the other hand I play to have fun. And I have the most fun in Diam/Crystal games, which are my level. This is the first time I'm stuck in plat for whatever reason I did to offend the rng fates, but it feels like playing in a clownfiesta each time and I have very little control on what people do ultimately. Especially as a ranged player that just constantly witnesses the frontline collapse for no reason at all except bad play.

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Originally Posted by Claustrum

None of this has anything to do with rewarding a player for playing well or punishing players for intentionally throwing a match. So... yeah? Maybe it would lead to more toxic behavior to just offer triple rewards with no other stipulations? I dunno how you can have triple rewards when it comes to comparative ranks though. You get 3 stars for winning instead of 1? I don't think that fixes any problem.

Maybe instead, if you play well enough, you have a chance to not lose a star if your team loses the match?

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How do you define "playing well" in measurable numbers?

Anyway, that's how the old Feast worked when it came to ranking: 30pts for a win, 10pts for a loss in bronze. Then 15pts in silver, 20 in gold, 25 in plat and 30 in diamond (there was no crystal rank). This is also how most ladder systems actually work behind the veil: the lower ranked you are, the more the systems helps you progress your way up. Right now the only thing in CC that is close to it is the win streak reward, except it applies for any rank below crystal equally.

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Originally Posted by Valence

How do you define "playing well" in measurable numbers?

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You want me to design the system? I can give a rough draft, but it'll still be a bit unfair. An oversimplified version would be whoever does the most damage has a chance to not lose a star, though that would favor DPS. A more complex version would check to see if you're using your abilities effectively. Or something that would make me happy is if someone spends more than half of the match in the base, they lose 5 stars, and the other 4 players on the team lose none.

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Originally Posted by Claustrum

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You know that it impossible to create something like that?
There are to many variables and different play styles.

The 0/4/1 tank could be the most valuable contributor to a win by keeping 3 enemy's busy while his team pushes the win.
The amount of dmg variates depending on the played class, the enemy's job, how the enemy's play, how your team is doing.
The healing done, well, tough luck for you when you are the squishy target and the enemy's have a good focus on you. You will be that bad player of the team even though you always got chain CCed into the death.
And I don't want to think about different playatyles between beginners and high ranks.

It is a impossible task to create something like this in a game with so many variables.

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Originally Posted by Claustrum

You want me to design the system? I can give a rough draft, but it'll still be a bit unfair. An oversimplified version would be whoever does the most damage has a chance to not lose a star, though that would favor DPS. A more complex version would check to see if you're using your abilities effectively. Or something that would make me happy is if someone spends more than half of the match in the base, they lose 5 stars, and the other 4 players on the team lose none.

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If damage alone, or using all my skills was the sole contributor of my success then I'd be top 10 every time.

The real humility is to reach that point, then understand that you have barely scratched the surface and being able to identify tipping points and valuable contributions, according to your team, the tactical configuration of the moment, and your job, which is in my opinion the hardest thing clarity wise for all players in current CC. You often have no clue why the team collapsed so bad until you carefully rewatch a video to see who is actually fucking up so hard that's not even funny. Or be one of those top rated player veterans that have been doing this for so long that they can instantly tell why.

Ranked is dead, Casual benefits from fast games win or lose, FL has xp leechers further increasing the randomness of teams.

Reward for playing well should be something worthwhile, if you already got your rank rewards in previous Season there's no reason to PvP aside from having something you want with Wolf Marks or still somehow having your Series rewards unfinished. I guess being completionist for Achievements counts?

As it is, PvP is fairly pointless at the moment. If only they could implement cross DC queues and put in some kind of Ranked currency it would go far, but considering they abandoned Trophy Crystal shop the patch it was introduced in, there's absolutely no chance for any of it happening. Especially since the JP ranked queue is still populated compared to other servers.

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Originally Posted by Curisu

You know that it impossible to create something like that?
There are to many variables and different play styles.

The 0/4/1 tank could be the most valuable contributor to a win by keeping 3 enemy's busy while his team pushes the win.
The amount of dmg variates depending on the played class, the enemy's job, how the enemy's play, how your team is doing.
The healing done, well, tough luck for you when you are the squishy target and the enemy's have a good focus on you. You will be that bad player of the team even though you always got chain CCed into the death.
And I don't want to think about different playatyles between beginners and high ranks.

It is a impossible task to create something like this in a game with so many variables.

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You are correct that a perfect system would be impossible to design. The closest thing I could come up with is that each job would have a checklist of things they could do which gives them a bonus chance to not lose a star. Got dropped to 10% of your health, but you still managed to survive? 5% chance you won't lose a star if your team loses. Did the most damage on your team? Another 5% chance. Used guardian on a teammate who was low on health? Another 5% chance.

Would this be perfectly fair? No, but it would provide a reason for someone to keep trying even if they keep getting teamed with the same a-hole who gets steamrolled in the first 5 seconds of the match, then goes afk in the base. That's all I really want. One player can ruin a match for 4 others, and there is almost nothing those 4 players can do but seethe for a few minutes, then lose their star and hope they never get teamed with that guy again. Any system which makes it so you can actually DO something even when the game keeps putting you on the team that WILL lose the match regardless of how well you play.

All I want is pvp to reward you for playing well, even if your team does not play well.

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Originally Posted by Valence

How do you define "playing well" in measurable numbers?

Anyway, that's how the old Feast worked when it came to ranking: 30pts for a win, 10pts for a loss in bronze. Then 15pts in silver, 20 in gold, 25 in plat and 30 in diamond (there was no crystal rank). This is also how most ladder systems actually work behind the veil: the lower ranked you are, the more the systems helps you progress your way up. Right now the only thing in CC that is close to it is the win streak reward, except it applies for any rank below crystal equally.

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In terms of non-ranked performance, a similar answer is to simply greatly increase the rewards for winning, meanwhile adjusting the "participation award" for losing to such that it's not a complete waste of time... but it's small enough compared to the reward for winning that you're still incentivized to push for a win. For Frontlines, as an example, you might have a win be 25% of a level, maybe 15% for second place, and 8% for 3rd and tomes accordingly. For a binary mode like CC or RW, it might be 25% for a win and 10% for a loss (less than that for a short mode like CC, of course, but proportionately similar.) In both cases, you have a meaningful incentive to win - you're getting as much as *three times* the benefit for winning the game as losing it, and 25% of a level in roughly 15 minutes of effort is... quite competitive with other modes of leveling.

Ranked mode requires a different solution, though it's also pretty simple - just use Elo or an Elo-derived system like virtually all competent laddering systems use.

So who exactly will judge your play and enforce this reward for your play effort? Do you think SE can afford to employ spectators? They can't even afford enough GM to handle griefing in any aspect of the game (save the ones broadcast on twitch to 100k people anyway...).

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Originally Posted by Elfidan

So who exactly will judge your play and enforce this reward for your play effort? Do you think SE can afford to employ spectators? They can't even afford enough GM to handle griefing in any aspect of the game (save the ones broadcast on twitch to 100k people anyway...).

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A program would do it, buddy. Do you actually think I'm saying GMs should watch every pvp match? No, if you meet certain requirements, you have a chance to not lose your rank.

That seems pretty optimistic. There are so many factors in what is good play that even the stats at the end of the match do not perfectly show you who played well and who didn't. This is how you end up with matches where a team has massive damage tons of kills and still loses because nobody stuck with the crystal.

Worse, if people figure out how scoring works, they'll play to game that system... not to win the actual game. You're approaching the problem from the wrong angle, bud.

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Originally Posted by Elfidan

That seems pretty optimistic. There are so many factors in what is good play that even the stats at the end of the match do not perfectly show you who played well and who didn't. This is how you end up with matches where a team has massive damage tons of kills and still loses because nobody stuck with the crystal.

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You're right. Ah, if only there was a measurable statistic for people who stuck with the crystal.

> . >

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

Worse, if people figure out how scoring works, they'll play to game that system... not to win the actual game. You're approaching the problem from the wrong angle, bud.

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Ah yeah. Like all the people who are always trying to win the actual game... afk... in the base... because there's no penalty for them to do that, and no reward for them to not do that. You're describing meta-gaming, and it exists in every gaming system.

The current incentives allow for people to f-over 4 other players on their team, and those 4 other players can't do anything but seethe and soy for the match, then lose a rank just like the troll on their team.

THEY'RE ALREADY PLAYING TO GAME THAT SYSTEM, BUD.

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

Worse, if people figure out how scoring works, they'll play to game that system... not to win the actual game. You're approaching the problem from the wrong angle, bud.

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Look, are you really this stupid, or are you just trolling? I've spent this whole thread describing a problem where people know how the scoring works, and they're playing to that system instead of actually trying to win the game they're currently playing.

People decide a match is a lost cause and just afk instead of trying to win the actual game.

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Originally Posted by Curisu

The reward for playing well is the increase of your rank and more currency.

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https://i.ibb.co/VD5Wn2r/65756757.png

I lost this match despite being better than both teams combined. What's my reward?

Expecting xiv players to care about improving is like expecting a rock to bleed when you throw it at a wall, it's just not going to happen

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Originally Posted by Claustrum

Ah yeah. Like all the people who are always trying to win the actual game... afk... in the base... because there's no penalty for them to do that, and no reward for them to not do that. You're describing meta-gaming, and it exists in every gaming system.

The current incentives allow for people to f-over 4 other players on their team, and those 4 other players can't do anything but seethe and soy for the match, then lose a rank just like the troll on their team.

THEY'RE ALREADY PLAYING TO GAME THAT SYSTEM, BUD.

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then you got the fact that people will throw so they can progress the Series pass faster or stack match making by queuing at the same time, they play the system and they play it well.