Samurai is extremely oppressive to play against in any PvP scenario

It's unreasonable to have to change my UI settings to show debuffs as 500x just to see if I have kuzushi applied, only to die instantly after because of the braindead limit break ignoring shield.

The class is built to be a complete piece of shit camper. Fight semi-normally until LB, proceed to hold Kuzushi until someone randomly hits you with an aoe or accidentally targets you, and you get a free kill.

Typical japanese company making the asian classes overpowered.

I'd say samurai is more cheap than overpowered tbh, but I say the same about any one-shot gimmick.
Now if we're talking about frontline NIN on the other hand...

AoE's triggering the buff is ridiculously lame, but that's about the only "oppressive" thing about it. Just mark them and Stun/Kill them when they have LB.

Also, your last comment is ridiculous. SAM isn't overpowered at all.

CC pov
It's annoying to deal with on both ends. Sure, it sucks that they can one hit by a simple mechanic. On the other hand, because that's known people will generally leave you alone every time Chiten is activated making the mechanic annoying to proc. I had to switch strategies with how I used my lb since holding the LB for samurais only nets one use if the game doesn't go to overtime.

I don't use the LB for the cheesy mechanic. I use it to assassinate a back line target. Either the hp will disappear, or the entire mp bar will. Either way, I'm forcing a 5v4 to occur.

All melee are extremely oppressive to play against in CC, they're tankier than tanks, can escape always, can't be escaped from, and do the most damage

In FL specifically it can be really annoying because you can AoE a giant blob of people and not notice the one Samurai in the middle with Chiten up. If you're experiencing frustrations with it I'd recommend playing jobs that can apply a shield on themselves like Ninja and Scholar. I'm sure there are others but those are the only 2 I'm familiar with.

in CC you can see pretty clearly when a SAM has LB up. You don't even need to increase the size of the debuffs. Not to mention Chiten has a massive shield graphic when a SAM uses it.

SAM is largely manageable when contained within CC. It is in the running for the ultimate "n00b trap" job to fight against, as it conditions players to have to pay attention to and respect the enemy team's status bar so you can identify and react accordingly (ie: with caution) when the SAM's Limit Break gauge is near-full or flashing. But 'caution' isn't a word in most Casual mode and low rank player's vocabulary; they just want to tab target something, spam whatever they think works and sit there with their mouth hanging open when the enemy SAM floored them and potentially multiple other teammate(s) and run back here to "REEEee" because the enemy team's status bar doesn't exist to them yet. Honestly, I feel like whoever designed SAM's LB in this PvP rework was channeling some serious Hakumen vibes from Blazblue (three guesses what archetype he's based off of): If you got overaggressive and careless when he was sitting on 50% meter, you'd probably eat a massive Counter Super.

Having said that, do I think it should take off 100% of someone's HP? No, not really. If they can nerf Chainsaw's rare proc to just do enough to put someone at full HP near death, they can/should do it to SAM too. Dropping to 5% from full HP is enough of a wake-up call/game changer if there's anyone else around to follow-up on it or punish those who took the risk without being at full HP before clipping you. And if someone can recover from that, you probably didn't deserve to kill them with absolutely no follow-through.

I concede though, that as it is now is problematic in large scale modes, for reasons people always bring up. You would be excused for not targeting them in a giant fustercluck of people, and you now have no way of seeing if their LB gauge is full, which is essentially the biggest mitigating factor of it not being "oppressive" in CC. If you can see it coming, you can lay off of them for the duration of that Chiten. If you have no idea if their LB is up, suddenly every Chiten beyond the first 3 minutes makes SAM an active bomb. Twelve have mercy if you happened to clip them with any AoE in a big skirmish (because that's what they're there for). Outside of again, nerfing it to 95% HP so that they don't get cheap 1-shots on people with full HP, I don't see how this can be addressed for large-scale fights as I highly doubt the PvP person team is going to adjust how specific abilities function in 2 separate PvP modes; they simply gave blanket defense bonuses and job-specific damage nerfs to deal with LB stacking when they perceive there to be "imbalances."

I'm probably going to discuss it more at length in the "Does Frontlines need its own rules" thread; because this sort of thing is a legit concern, even if I know they will almost certainly never do anything outside of broad potency adjustments (as always throughout all expansions).
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...-its-own-rules

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Also, your last comment is ridiculous. SAM isn't overpowered at all.

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SAM is 100% overpowered. Compare it to MCH, who they determined Chainsaw to be 'too powerful' when it was a 3% chance to kill every eight actions, including waiting for recharges. That needed to be brought down to 95% damage, because a 3% chance of 100% damage was too much.

A single SAM can throw up Hissatu and then LB to 100% any number of people that touched him for 5s? Make it worth 20,000 damage, and a 3% chance of 100%, and it's almost balanced.

Yeah, but chainsaw is a regular rotation ability and Zan is a limit break. Also, you can survive Zan by hitting any shield ability or having it cast on you by a whm for instance. Now in FL it sucks but that's mostly because it's really hard to counter play. Maybe it's just me but when I see chainsaw up I'm actually looking for enemies bunched up in a line rather than a slot machine.

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Originally Posted by BaroLlyonesse

SAM is 100% overpowered. Compare it to MCH, who they determined Chainsaw to be 'too powerful' when it was a 3% chance to kill every eight actions, including waiting for recharges. That needed to be brought down to 95% damage, because a 3% chance of 100% damage was too much.

A single SAM can throw up Hissatu and then LB to 100% any number of people that touched him for 5s? Make it worth 20,000 damage, and a 3% chance of 100%, and it's almost balanced.

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The problem isn't one-shotting per se, the problem is that Chain Saw is a random low % chance. Nothing is more BS than getting insta-gibbed because you lucked a 1:33 chance roll, whereas you have a living and breathing chance against a Samurai using Zantetsuken if you have superior reaction time or awareness about the Samurai and Chiten. Also Zantetsuken is tied to the Limit Break charge, which is sadly not visible in Frontlines / RW.

Don't get me wrong, WHEN you get the Zantetsuken retaliation it is strong, but it has counter play. And that counter play has counterplay too if the Samurai uses Meikyo Shisui or if you chain Chiten after Guard for example.

What counterplay is there to a 3% chance (near) oneshot? Oh no MCH activated Analysis and has Chainsaw loaded, better play around that.

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Originally Posted by BaroLlyonesse

SAM is 100% overpowered. Compare it to MCH, who they determined Chainsaw to be 'too powerful' when it was a 3% chance to kill every eight actions, including waiting for recharges. That needed to be brought down to 95% damage, because a 3% chance of 100% damage was too much.

A single SAM can throw up Hissatu and then LB to 100% any number of people that touched him for 5s? Make it worth 20,000 damage, and a 3% chance of 100%, and it's almost balanced.

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Chainsaw is a rotational move. SAM LB will happen once a match, "maybe" twice if its a longer match, and in crystal you'll basically never see a SAM successfully LB anyone or at best they will get 1 person who wasn't paying attention.

Contrast that to the fact that on MCH I can get free kills left and right with their burst setups compared to SAM that has to chase everyone around with all their big hits being casted skills. SAM is not OP.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

The problem isn't one-shotting per se, the problem is that Chain Saw is a random low % chance. Nothing is more BS than getting insta-gibbed because you lucked a 1:33 chance roll, whereas you have a living and breathing chance against a Samurai using Zantetsuken if you have superior reaction time or awareness about the Samurai and Chiten. Also Zantetsuken is tied to the Limit Break charge, which is sadly not visible in Frontlines / RW.

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I would counter that nothing is more BS than getting insta-gibbed because a SAM moved into the clipped edge of AoE and can retaliate instantly for 100% damage against multiple people. If they wanted to balance that properly, the appropriate would be to give SAM a 3% chance as well, or have the 100% work on only one target and the rest take LB damage.

If I see a SAM with Guard that is not retreating, I know exactly what they are doing and not to aim at them; the SAM can react to MCH the exact same way by watching for Air Anchor Ready and knowing to rush to take them out. So yes, 'better play around that', the same way you play around a MNK DFA Kicker, or (before patch) a PLD+WHM, or any other current meta. If you have to ambush the former and keep a Reaper/Dancer LB to counter the latter, there's no reason why it should be an issue to see MCH, go 'that guy dies first', and then either have a kill on your side or on theirs.

The argument comes down to 'what was this job meant to do'. Before the DR change, MCH LB would drop at 50% or less, just like a NIN assassinate hop (with the exception that the NIN can just keep hopping if partnered with people who know to drop multiple AOE on a pack), and the seeming intent of MCH was to do exactly that: Massive damage on LB, and a chance to simply drop targets. It's evident that SAM and MCH were designed to have the same function in PvP at different ranges (don't close to SAM, close to MCH being the only difference), but when it came time to reevaluate, only one side got nerfed.

[EDIT:] tl;dr: SAM does not need 100% if MCH does not need it.

I mean samurai has always wombo combo'd people in small scale. Back in SB when they came into the game they literally waited to get three stickers then killed someone. Sometimes people would quit if one team had a SAM and the other didn't. The reason MCH chainsaw even K.O.s people is because they are basically carbon copying it from FF6. Your role isn't really glass cannon, it's swiss army dps. Just like ninja you have pretty much anything you could need.

Even though A.chainsaw is a stupid ability that makes no sense whatsoever, I take solace in that any MCH actually wasting analyzes on it is probably underperforming as a result 95% of the time.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Even though A.chainsaw is a stupid ability that makes no sense whatsoever, I take solace in that any MCH actually wasting analyzes on it is probably underperforming as a result 95% of the time.

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Ya, good MCH players are not wasting analysis on chainsaw.

Just because counterplay exists, doesn't mean it's fun. Playing against SAM LB has had a few moments where they know that I know that they know they have LB and we are playing chicken, but all in all it is usually not a fun experience, especially when you trigger it with splash damage. You can adjust by not using anything with cleave if it could trigger chiten, but is this what we really want? It's a bad mechanic, as is any instant kill. It's not fun.

I think SAM LB would be more enjoyable to play around in actual team games where people are on voice and know how to deflect it by shielding somebody and making them trigger it on purpose, or stun the SAM at the right time and LOS it out.

But we'll never get team games so... meh

Otherwise even when hitting without the debuff it's still a nice AoE. I'd totally be up for the devs to change it into a bigger long range line AoE kind of deal, with increased benefits on targets with the debuff (but not 100% HP). You know, kinda like DRG gets a higher damage on players right at the epicenter...

I still think each job tank dps and healers all need to reword yes again all bs one shot kill crap removed or all dps get a one shot kill i mean fair is fair yes?

If you play SMN and put your little shield up (has low cd) debuff - LB wont kill you lol.

I tested it yesterday in Onsal. I attacked a SAM with chiten up while having my shield up and his LB only hit me for 25k-32k hp.
Basically SMN is inmune to that garbage gimmick playstyle.

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Originally Posted by AnnRam

If you play SMN and put your little shield up (has low cd) debuff - LB wont kill you lol.

I tested it yesterday in Onsal. I attacked a SAM with chiten up while having my shield up and his LB only hit me for 25k-32k hp.
Basically SMN is inmune to that garbage gimmick playstyle.

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It's any shield effect. SAM ult does damage exactly equal to your maximum HP. So if you have an extra 300 on top of that because you have the leftovers of an SCH bubble or something, you'll just barely survive.

This is why you save things like drill, air anchor, six-sided star, Nastrond(after skyshitter), and Mineuchi. Cause sometimes they survive. What's worse than surviving meteodive, marksmanspite, skyshitter, or zant only to immediately be stunned and have to watch the last dregs of your milkshake be drank in front of you?

I don’t know..you strip that may as well strip the rest of the other job abilities that are as much as nuisance.

They’re strong but not OP.

Git gud?