Sundering the Nibirun

Hey peepz,

So the Nibirun are a stand-in for the ancients, they are what would have happened to them if they had continued their existence without changing course.

And the only way for the ancients to change course was through being sundered. Since they are physically incapable of managing Dynamis in a positive way their aether levels had to be reduced in order to have a chance to withstand the despair of the final days.

So unless we sunder the Nibirun in Ultima Thule, they will never be able to find peace. They are physically incapable. Unless they are not really like the ancients at all, which would never be stated, thus being a hard cop-out.


Because think of the implications otherwise: It would mean that the Sundering of Etheirys never would have needed to happen. It would mean that it is not one's physical makeup which decides their fate (the message of Endwalker) but that it's possible for anyone to handle despair (weirldy enough the direction in which the beast tribe questline seems to develop) no matter how dense their aether is. Venat would turn in her grave if she knew! Cause that would have been a massive doozy! Sundering a world over absolutely nothing.

So if the writers wanna be bold and consistent and not choose the cop-out of having the Nibirun actually completely capable of changing their mind through some nice food - thus forcing the conclusion that they are nothing like the ancients, they have no choice but to sunder the them. Leaving them be would have negative consequences for the Dynamis. Convincing them shouldn't work because of the way they are.

Also think about how cute a tiny sundered Nibirun would be! We could get one as a pet to follow us around <3

The Nibirun as they exist now are pure dynamis creations, just like the rest of the present inhabitants. No sundering has been required for any of the others. No copping out is involved.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

The Nibirun as they exist now are pure dynamis creations, just like the rest of the present inhabitants. No sundering has been required for any of the others. No copping out is involved.

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The Dynamis perfectly recreates the original races is my proposition. The sundering hasn't been required for any of the others cause they were not a direct stand-in for the ancients.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

No sundering has been required for any of the others.

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No sundering would have ever been required for any of the others, not for their originals either. For the ancients however, the sundering WAS required. And so it should be for the replicated Nibirun.

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Originally Posted by Eisi

The Dynamis perfectly recreates the original races is my proposition. The sundering hasn't been required for any of the others cause they were not a direct stand-in for the ancients.

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No it doesnt. At least not really. Remember, when the ea tried to "feed" us with aether nothing happened cause they cant manipulate aether since theyre pure dynamis now.

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Originally Posted by sidurgu-12

No it doesnt. At least not really. Remember, when the ea tried to "feed" us with aether nothing happened cause they cant manipulate aether since theyre pure dynamis now.

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Damn, thank you! I did not remember that.

Man that makes the whole beast tribe feel SO hollow. Cause it's really about whether the different races could have chosen a different path, it's merely a dream sequence with completely different signs, completely different races which would have never behaved the way their orinigals would have.

No sundering was ever required.

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Originally Posted by Lelila38

No sundering was ever required.

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It was, otherwise the story makes no sense.

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Originally Posted by Eisi

Damn, thank you! I did not remember that.

Man that makes the whole beast tribe feel SO hollow. Cause it's really about whether the different races could have chosen a different path, it's merely a dream sequence with completely different signs, completely different races which would have never behaved the way their orinigals would have.

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Imo it was important because they were frozen in the moments leading up to their doom. The tribe quests basically shakes them from this thinking and lets them start healing. Despite being pure dynamis constructs theyre still alive.

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Originally Posted by Eisi

It was, otherwise the story makes no sense.

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Well, if you think about it logically, it does not make much sense.

I feel reluctant to consider the Nibirun as a parallel to the Ancients now that we know they only cared about perfection as a people and naught else.

It was stated that they might have met a similar end, though I find that exceedingly unlikely given that the Ancients were not reckless and deliberated over every decision they made for their people and the world at length.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I feel reluctant to consider the Nibirun as a parallel to the Ancients now that we know they only cared about perfection as a people and naught else.

It was stated that they might have met a similar end, though I find that exceedingly unlikely given that the Ancients were not reckless and deliberated over every decision they made for their people and the world at length.

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Why? The ancients self stated purpose is simply to make the star better, what happens when they can do no more to make the star better? Their own culture encourages killing yourself once you feel you've done all you can for the star. There will come a time when the star is perfect. Then what?

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Originally Posted by Eisi

The Dynamis perfectly recreates the original races is my proposition. The sundering hasn't been required for any of the others cause they were not a direct stand-in for the ancients.

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The Nibirun are a stand-in for the ancients socially.

But your argument is that they need to be sundered to interact with the dynamis physically, which they do not.

The other races are also originally unsundered and did not have any issues.

It's suggested that the Ancients did not always follow the way of life they did, so the notion that they are wholly incapable of another such cultural shift if/when the time comes for it feels a bit...preposterous. The notion that living just for sake of enjoying life would be a totally foreign concept to them also feels awkward considering they did very obviously enjoy leisure activities in their free time.

The Nibirun by contrast destroyed everything that gave their lives joy and fulfillment by the time they achieved their perfection which led them to conclude life was now meaningless.

Perfection in general is also just a highly subjective, if not outright unattainable concept by nature, so what the Ancients would consider "perfect" may have never been realistically achievable with their methods.

I don't want to speak too much for the OP, but I think fussing over the technical nature of the Sundering and beings made of aether vs. dynamis is kinda missing the point a bit.

What it comes down to is that the reconstructed races of Ultima Thule haven't fundamentally changed in their lived nature. The Nibirun (and the Ea, and sort of the Omicrons) are still presented as immortal, "transcendent" beings unbound by much of the strife of mundane living. However, the narrative of the Omicron questlines does not frame this as an impassable obstacle to them ultimately finding happiness and meaning.

In comparison, the narrative surrounding the Ancients treats their immortality and special powers as a "problem" that was ultimately precluding sustainable happiness and leading to their doom, and so had to be removed. This leads to an apparent contradiction that I think you can interpret in one of two ways:

1) The writers just aren't on the same page, and whoever wrote the Omicron questline has a fundamentally different philosophical opinion on how immortality and godlike power would transform the human condition and the capacity for individuals to find constructive meaning in their lives, versus whoever ultimately made the call on the Sundering plotline would be presented in the MSQ. Alternatively, they wrote themselves into a corner with the Ancients and it coming across that way in the first place was an accident, or maybe the writer for the Omicron quests just didn't care that deeply about Endwalker's specific themes and so contradicted them incidentally while writing their uplifting story about making some aliens happy.

2) We're not supposed to understand immortality and godlike power as inherently bad, but rather something that only caused circumstantial problems for the Ancients because of the way their culture had developed and specific events had played out. Thus, the Sundering was "not necessary" insofar as they had the potential (however unlikely you regard it as being reached) for cultural transformation that could solve the problem in lieu of physical transformation.

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Originally Posted by Lurina

I don't want to speak too much for the OP, but I think fussing over the technical nature of the Sundering and beings made of aether vs. dynamis is kinda missing the point a bit.

What it comes down to is that the reconstructed races of Ultima Thule haven't fundamentally changed in their lived nature. The Nibirun (and the Ea, and sort of the Omicrons) are still presented as immortal, "transcendent" beings. However, the narrative of the Omicron questlines does not frame this as an impassable obstacle to them ultimately finding happiness and meaning.

In comparison, the narrative surrounding the Ancients treats their immortality and special powers as a "problem" that was ultimately precluding sustainable happiness and leading to their doom, and so had to be removed. This leads to an apparent contradiction that I think you can interpret in one of two ways:

1) The writers just aren't on the same page, and whoever wrote the Omicron questline has a fundamentally different philosophical opinion on how immortality and godlike power would transform the human condition and the capacity for individuals to find constructive meaning in their lives, versus whoever ultimately made the call on the Sundering plotline would be presented in the MSQ. Alternatively, they wrote themselves into a corner with the Ancients and it coming across that way in the first place was an accident, or maybe the writer for the Omicron quests just didn't care that deeply about Endwalker's specific themes to begin with and so contradicted them incidentally while writing their uplifting story about making some aliens happy.

2) We're not supposed to understand immortality and godlike power as inherently bad, but rather something that only caused circumstantial problems for the Ancients because of the way their culture had developed and specific events had played out. Thus, the Sundering was not "necessary" insofar as they had the potential (however unlikely you regard it as being reached) for cultural transformation that could solve the problem in lieu of physical transformation.

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I think its the second one.

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Originally Posted by sidurgu-12

I think its the second one.

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If so, there's a lot of takes about how the Ancients would have been eventually destroyed one way or another because of their nature which are barking up the wrong tree.

Personally, I think it's a mix of both. My impression is that some people on the writing team genuinely do think there is something uniquely essential about mortal and specifically recognizably contemporary human life - there's a lot of emphasis on concepts like "let those who walked before lead those who come after", how living a short and difficult life makes you treasure it all the more, and how trying to transcend that is explicitly bad - while there are others who are apathetic about this theme to the point of writing in contradiction of it, and consider the Ancients downfall to be either the result of a culture that overvalues conformist positivity, or something that's a pure tragedy. The tone jumps all over the place across the various questlines.

My guess is that there was probably never a consensus on the strict necessity of the Sundering or the "inevitability" of the Ancient's fate, but it didn't matter because they agreed on the broad strokes. Here, though, the small differences in opinion are made (possibly) overt.

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Originally Posted by Eisi

It was, otherwise the story makes no sense.

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The sundering was only ever required because 1 idiot programmer ancient made 1 idiot mistake in his code design concept when making Meteion. She Blue Screen of Death’d freaked out when she got an answer she wasn’t programmed looking for and decided to crash the universe accelerate mass universal extinction.

A Sundering wouldn't have been useful to stop the Nibirun from eating their entire society, because their end times had a much simpler core: if you killed Ra-la, that would be the end of the crisis. It's hard to get an idea how hard that would've been for the Nibirun, because they've never fought, but to us as external warriors it certainly wasn't the toughest thing we've ever fought; fair enough, because it was ultimately summoned to perform euthanasia, so it didn't exactly have to be combat-capable. Of course, then there's the possibility they could summon another, but we're unclear if such a thing would've been possible, or how they made the first one. Still, if someone was in the right place and time to save the Nibirun from themselves, it would've been quite possible without something drastic like the Sundering. However, it needs to be noted we know little to nothing about the circumstances that led to Ra-la, so it's hard to say not just how you'd solve the problem in the long-term, but even what exactly the problem is.

When considering the Ancients in parallel, keep in mind that a big problem with the Ancients was that Zodiark was both a load-bearing deity and a tool the Ancients most likely would've used to inadvertently kill their planet. So while killing Zodiark would've been technically possible (we beat it in an extreme circumstance, but even at full power it was likely still theoretically destructible by some mechanism, even if it ain't easy), it would've been the worst idea, because at that point you just kickstart the End of Days again. You need Zodiark alive, but you also need it unable to do anything extra, ergo, you Sunder both it and the people who'd desperately try to use it. Basically no other option allows the planet to keep living in any form; you kill Zodiark and the End of Days eats it, you leave it intact and Zodiark eats it. The Sundering's not pretty, nor really isn't a good idea in 99.9% of circumstances, but the Ancients and Zodiark happen to be that .1% where it mostly actually does stop the problems at hand.

You need to consider all facets of the problem before deciding on a solution. And the Nibirun are right now the biggest enigmas in Ultima Thule, so it's impossible to say with confidence that anything could've 'saved' them. The Sundering might've stopped them, sure, but does that actually help in their circumstances? Their world looked pretty dire, you might've condemned them to starving to death by doing that.

For the record, when considering everyone else... it doesn't fix the problems of the Grebuloffs, they'd still die anyway. The Dragons are in an even worse position afterward. The Omicrons are hard to judge since they're an entirely different type of being, but I'm gonna say they probably wouldn't be stopped. The Ea would just go from one problem to another, and they'd go from being burdened with infinite knowledge to being unable to comprehend their existence as weird ethereal beings. And the Karellians... well, that's just the story of Turn-A Gundam, so I'm gonna say it would solve the immediate existentially-threatening war, but they'd eventually just build up to another one and in the process make the best Gundam series.

Just because they are meant to show us a possible outcome for the Ancients, does not mean that they are the same. We have no idea of their aether reserves and we do know that they are a hivemind, something the ancients were not.

As others have pointed out they are also recreations through Dynamis so sundering them would do nothing. And there is no Meteion anymore that sends out Despair into every bit of the universe.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I feel reluctant to consider the Nibirun as a parallel to the Ancients now that we know they only cared about perfection as a people and naught else.

It was stated that they might have met a similar end, though I find that exceedingly unlikely given that the Ancients were not reckless and deliberated over every decision they made for their people and the world at length.

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And I am sure the Nibirun also did not start out as a hivemind race that had their "perfection" from the beginning. The point of saying that they could be parallels to the Ancients is that this could have been a road that they could have taken if they had surivived as their race.

We also have Hermes, a Ancient question exactly that: What if the star is perfect? Will we all just die?
Then there is already someone like Lahabrea that casts away his emotions because he does not want to handle them.

I see it quite a huge possibilty that down the road they could have ended like them. They after all already had problems with creativity on Elpis and some creations just followed a trend. (Hythlo being so annoyed about the sharks)

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Just because they are meant to show us a possible outcome for the Ancients, does not mean that they are the same. We have no idea of their aether reserves and we do know that they are a hivemind, something the ancients were not.

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Where does it say that they are a hivemind? I didn't get that impression from them.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Where does it say that they are a hivemind? I didn't get that impression from them.

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If you poke the one that shows up in Base Omnicron during the rank 7 rank up they congratulate the Omnicrons for also choosing to become a hivemind.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Where does it say that they are a hivemind? I didn't get that impression from them.

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They say it in their quest (at least in german) and as SannaR said they also mention it later by that one NPC. (Which makes it even worse that you can miss them)
My only thought was: Well another case that having a hivemind is quite bad.

According to Garlandtools this was the english version of the main quest: <whirr> Situational analysis complete. New customers are of the Nibirun civilization. This society eliminated concepts deemed unpleasant by organic life-forms, such as “war” and “death.” In so doing, individuals attained physical immortality and a state of unified comprehension.

And I believe that in german it was quite clear that they got "one mind" out of that.

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Originally Posted by Eisi

It was, otherwise the story makes no sense.

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I dont think the Sundering was required, It was one way of achieving the solution to face meteon. I.e they needed a creature capable of weilding a mix of dynamis and Aether. They needed the ancients to not keep sacrificing to acquire what was lost. There were more routes to that end, the Sundering was but one possible outcome, ironically in many ways the route Hydealyn chose resulted in more Sacrifice than the ancients because while the ancients sacrificed lives to save etheirys, Hydealyn sacrificed everything else. Culture, capability, civilisation.

Another thing to note is that both of her solutions depended on Zodiark to succeed and the backup plan in reality was doomed to fail (using the moon to flee)

So when looked at with this guise, Etheirys was only saved because of both Hydealyn and Zodiarks Actions, but there is a case to be made that regardless, Zodiark was alwways required. While Hydelyn's actions were not. (Assuming the Ancients figured everything out and turned away from the whole sacrificing more lives things, which Elidibus would probably have done given his role as mediator.)

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Originally Posted by Anvaire

I dont think the Sundering was required, It was one way of achieving the solution to face meteon. I.e they needed a creature capable of weilding a mix of dynamis and Aether. They needed the ancients to not keep sacrificing to acquire what was lost. There were more routes to that end, the Sundering was but one possible outcome, ironically in many ways the route Hydealyn chose resulted in more Sacrifice than the ancients because while the ancients sacrificed lives to save etheirys, Hydealyn sacrificed everything else. Culture, capability, civilisation.

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I think a useful way to consider it is that the Sundering was the only conceivable solution for the people considering the problem at the time. If granted hypothetical true omniscience of everything going on and all possible events that would ensue in both the present and future, someone could plausibly come up with a better choice. But that's not what happened: instead, the task fell on a woman and whoever she could recruit that, while certainly smart and creative, and likely capable of considering a lot of the scenario around them, were humans (or whatever classifies as 'humans' in their scenario, which is admittedly not how 2022 Earth would consider the term) with human foibles and blind spots, doing their best with the information they have. In that context, yes, the Sundering was the best they could've possibly done, largely from the perspective of 'addresses all potential pain points'; granted, it feels like the group isn't thrilled about any part of the idea, they can tell that none of it is ideal. It's just that an ideal scenario is not available to them, and may not even exist on a theoretical level.

And the backup escape plan is... honestly, probably a bit more complicated than 'doomed to fail'. The primary intention of it was of course to get a few of the required pieces in play (namely, viable space travel and experts in such) while looking like the real plan, so already the definition of 'failure' here is kinda nebulous; the backup plan eventually succeeded in its real intention, which was not to be an actual backup plan. But if we approach it from the perspective of 'would the supposed plan to flee to another star have worked if they were required to try it'... well, there are theoretically habitable planets out there, and not all of them were facing a full End of Days as evidenced by Ultima Thule itself; Etheirys got the raw end because Meteion was aiming directly at it. So if they rode the moon to another habitable planet, they would've reasonably been able to live there for a while, it's just that 'a while' is not 'forever'. Eventually, something else would've killed 'em. But that's always gonna happen: nothing lasts forever, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't dodge the bullet you can see coming.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

And the backup escape plan is... honestly, probably a bit more complicated than 'doomed to fail'. The primary intention of it was of course to get a few of the required pieces in play (namely, viable space travel and experts in such) while looking like the real plan, so already the definition of 'failure' here is kinda nebulous; the backup plan eventually succeeded in its real intention, which was not to be an actual backup plan. But if we approach it from the perspective of 'would the supposed plan to flee to another star have worked if they were required to try it'... well, there are theoretically habitable planets out there, and not all of them were facing a full End of Days as evidenced by Ultima Thule itself; Etheirys got the raw end because Meteion was aiming directly at it. So if they rode the moon to another habitable planet, they would've reasonably been able to live there for a while, it's just that 'a while' is not 'forever'. Eventually, something else would've killed 'em. But that's always gonna happen: nothing lasts forever, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't dodge the bullet you can see coming.

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I stated it was doomed to fail because of what we know about dynamis. It was caused by high states of emotion (despair) that caused people to mutate into monsters. When you consider that those on the loppporits ship would have been leaving everything behind, without knowing where they were going. it would have taken but one of them to turn, which would have led to a chain reaction. Then we need to consider that Etheirys was still under the lingering influence of Zodiark, so take that ship with dozens of frightened, sad emotional people and then have them step directly into the focus of dynamis while trying to escape and I honestly think that it was doomed because inevitably one would turn leading to a chain reaction. Sure there was a slim chance of getting to a planet and thriving. But i think it was unlikely they would ever have made it that far.

I also dont think Ultima Thule can be classed as evidence of planets surviving as it in itself is a creation of dynamis. We dont know enough about the state of the universe to assume that life persists given the implication that meteon scoured the universe and destroyed them all, capturing their souls in that blue mass at the centre of Ultima Thule. Im sure there is a planet somewhere. But the sheer vastness of that journey to find it... honestly I just think the odds are stacked too much against them for the plan to succeed.

Thats without considering the Lopporits... ineptitude, though that could purposely be comic relief.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

...But that's not what happened: instead, the task fell on a woman and whoever she could recruit that, while certainly smart and creative, and likely capable of considering a lot of the scenario around them, were humans (or whatever classifies as 'humans' in their scenario, which is admittedly not how 2022 Earth would consider the term) with human foibles and blind spots, doing their best with the information they have. In that context, yes, the Sundering was the best they could've possibly done, largely from the perspective of 'addresses all potential pain points'; granted, it feels like the group isn't thrilled about any part of the idea, they can tell that none of it is ideal. It's just that an ideal scenario is not available to them, and may not even exist on a theoretical level..

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It's like comparing the Ancient Greeks or Ancient Romans with people living in 2022. What they knew back then was the best for their time, and the things we knew now are still advancing and learning more.

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Originally Posted by AlenyaElizabelle

It's like comparing the Ancient Greeks or Ancient Romans with people living in 2022. What they knew back then was the best for their time, and the things we knew now are still advancing and learning more.

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Honestly, while you're mostly right it's not even that, because that implies the in-game present day had any better ideas to solve this, and they really didn't. They had the Loporrits (who aren't actually inept, they know their stuff, they're just also comedic), but they weren't actually providing new solutions, they'd basically just spent twelve thousand years working on the part of the problem Venat and company knew they'd eventually need but couldn't provide themselves.

Even as an outside audience we don't actually have any better ideas; basically anyone I've seen put one forward either ignores or twists explicit fact (sometimes intentionally, sometimes accidentally), or just makes things up. We're aware that better ideas could theoretically exist, but that doesn't mean we have 'em either!

The present had the significant advantage of knowledge that was explicitly denied to the past (The cause of the Final Days).

It's anyone's guess how things could've played out had the Ancients known exactly what they were dealing with ASAP, but I feel a touch disinclined to think a proper solution was completely out of their grasp between the limitless potential of creation magicks and their unity as a people.

Well Venat was an ancient. She knew them. She was also a former member of the convocation. She knew the convocation members. She was also the former Azem. You know, the ancient who probably saw the most of their world.
She considered they had no chance. This whole "She did not tell them, if she did they would have bla-bla" is just whishful thinking from ancient fans. They would have probably failed. If they would have even believed her.
And there's also Hermes, their best dynamis expert. What would he have done? Too many variables and just a stupid risky decision.

I mean...it's not like there wasn't countless variables involved with the path she did choose, and it's frankly a miracle everything worked out even in our case.

It has less to do with being an "ancient fan" and more wanting to not find the course of action taken by the "big good" of the setting morally reprehensible due to having nearly as much maybe/probably involved in the chosen course over hypothetical ones that could've led to less death and suffering. It's not like the whole fiasco didn't involve the sundered at all, either.

The entire topic is about waxing hypothetical to begin with so the eagerness to shoot down theories/possibilities is...strange to me. Though I suppose it's pointless to try to argue with people who are completely dug in on the chosen course being the only good/correct one despite the game explicitly entertaining the notion that maybe it wasn't.

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Originally Posted by CheshCa7

And there's also Hermes, their best dynamis expert. What would he have done? Too many variables and just a stupid risky decision.

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Fall into omnicidal despair once he learned about his hand in it. We know that, we saw him do it the first time, he'd obviously do it the second. Venat literally brings that up.

We really do have to accept that Venat knew the Ancient people enough to read them at least mostly correctly. Not only because the story doesn't work otherwise, but because all evidence we see suggests she was right, and that she has the exact resume to be as accurate as expected for this. And... uhm, the knowledge of Meteion wouldn't have helped, because when we learned about her our plan didn't actually revolve around that fact, and Venat knew that fact and still went ahead with her plan. Almost like an active but distant antagonist wouldn't have suddenly allowed for an easier answer.

But I'm not interested in re-litigating this argument again; it was terrible the last seventy-three times, attempt #74 won't suddenly be new and interesting. The OP I suspect asked their question in bad faith, but at least said question posed an alternative angle that was new and worth answering, even if it ultimately isn't very hard to answer.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

it was terrible the last seventy-three times, attempt #74 won't suddenly be new and interesting.

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Gotta make it to seven hundred and seventy-seven, yes yes!
https://i.imgur.com/5PHw0hC.jpg

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

But I'm not interested in re-litigating this argument again; it was terrible the last seventy-three times, attempt #74 won't suddenly be new and interesting. The OP I suspect asked their question in bad faith, but at least said question posed an alternative angle that was new and worth answering, even if it ultimately isn't very hard to answer.

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While I agree with you that there's not really any point in further Venat discourse, it sort of diminishes the sentiment to say it after (as opposed to in lieu of) making a counterpoint anyway. Kinda a "I'm right, you're blocked" energy.

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Originally Posted by Lurina

While I agree with you that there's not really any point in further Venat discourse, it sort of diminishes the sentiment to say it after (as opposed to in lieu of) making a counterpoint anyway. Kinda a "I'm right, you're blocked" energy.

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That's fair enough, and I apologize. I think that approach kinda comes from an angle of going 'I'm not saying we stop because I think you've won'. Admittedly a bad reflex.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

But I'm not interested in re-litigating this argument again; it was terrible the last seventy-three times, attempt #74 won't suddenly be new and interesting. The OP I suspect asked their question in bad faith, but at least said question posed an alternative angle that was new and worth answering, even if it ultimately isn't very hard to answer.

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Thank you! And yeah you're right it was in bad faith :(. I just continue to be bothered by part of the story and I wish I could like it. But I already didn't like it from the start so it's moreso the general direction they took, what they chose to focus on that I'm in disagreement with.

Fandaniel was an awesome character tho. Also I really like Venat (her English VA is not my taste, but JP is bonkers good), I'm not a Venat/Hydaelyn hater. I am a Dynamis hater and a timeloop hater.

And I can't let go!! Still lookin forward to Pandemonium III and the Omicron finale.

Sundering was only required to be able to deal with the dynamis wave Meteion sent...? Like, if she wasn't sending that, then the sundering wouldn't have been necessary. Now she is not sending it and therefore no one needs to be split into aetheric chunks to survive it.

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

Sundering was only required to be able to deal with the dynamis wave Meteion sent...? Like, if she wasn't sending that, then the sundering wouldn't have been necessary. Now she is not sending it and therefore no one needs to be split into aetheric chunks to survive it.

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It also served to render Zodiark too inoperable to make grand, world-eating sacrifices to. ...a Zodiark that wouldn't have existed without Meteion's assault necessitating it, so that's basically just a 'yes' with a couple more points of separation. Essentially, the Sundering was purpose-designed to address all factors in the exact one situation it was deployed into. In any other context it becomes one of the worst ideas you could do, not because the Sundering itself is inherently bad, but because it's just so specialized and focused on a specific scenario that it's mostly not going to help in any others.

Trying to solve the Nibirun with a Sundering would be like trying to cut a cake with a screwdriver. The fact it's not going to do very well isn't exactly the screwdriver's fault.

I think it's important to understand that, by the developers own admission, the Sundering was part of the canon before they'd even concepted Amaurot, let alone the specifics of the Meteion and Zodiark scenario. Therefore, the way it's written must be understood as an exercise in plugging holes. They'd already written "A+[]=C", and needed to invent something to fill the gap.

The problem with this sort of approach is that you've lost Checkov's Gun before you've even started - obviously you can't have A and C suggest B when B doesn't exist yet. So the only way you can make B seem reasonable (if that's your goal) is to buffer it up with post-hoc explanations. I think this is why the Sundering is written in a way that comes across as quite neurotic, where there's a scattershot of different thematic and worldbuilding reasons why it had to happen; the dynamis manipulation stuff, the time loop stuff, the Ancient culture stuff.

I think they tried to do too much to make people accept the scenario, and ended up making it turn into a bit of a soup, having the opposite effect they wanted. It's easier to buy into one conceit delivered consistently and powerfully than several delivered inconsistently. And EW is ultimately a thematically-driven story, and if the Nibirun show that the Sundering was not thematically necessary for the Ancients as a people to be saved, what are we left with when we consider it from a perspective of pure worldbuilding? "It was necessary to kill 3 billion people to summon the crystal man to save the world, but also having the crystal man will inevitably corrupt society, but also we can't just destroy the crystal man, so the crystal man must be broken into pieces, killing another 1 billion people, to ultimately secure a happy ending (and also we can't refine this scenario because it might break causality and strand us in a doomed reality)"? It's hard to take much from that.

I gave a bit of a cynical take a few pages ago, but if anything, I'd be inclined to read the way the Nibirun are played here as a step away from the idea the Sundering was wholly necessary, as opposed to just a somewhat understandable act done in an extreme set of circumstances. I think that's probably the best move at this point.

No, the Sundering was never necessary. Endwalker still makes sense if you simply re-contextualize it as the action of one person because they believed it was necessary - no more, and no less.

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Originally Posted by =Cleretic

We really do have to accept that Venat knew the Ancient people enough to read them at least mostly correctly. Not only because the story doesn't work otherwise, but because all evidence we see suggests she was right, and that she has the exact resume to be as accurate as expected for this.

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I absolutely do not think we "have to accept" this. Appeals to authority and someone's "resume" and being more "knowledgeable" to justify something an atrocity like the Sundering make me sour even more to it, frankly.