I'm trying to come up with a lore friendly name for a female Roegadyn. So far I have settled on one of two Loezswys (Short Sister) or Klyngeim (Small Jewel), last name Rhotharrwyn (Red Hair Daughter). I have a good idea how to pronounce the last name but, the first names I'm having trouble with.
Loez should sound like Looz if read the dictionary post right. Swys, this one I'm not sure, I know wy makes a vee sound, so it would end in vees but, I'm not sure how to handle the first S let alone how the Z in Loez works with the first S Swys.
For Klyn, from what I gather it should sound like Kleen but, I have no clue how Giem sounds.
I kind of like the first name better but I just want to make sure I know how to pronounce the names because I know my friends will ask.
Roegadyn Name Pronunciation Help
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10-27-2022, 01:18 PMxxvbRoegadyn Name Pronunciation Help
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10-27-2022, 01:45 PMCleretic
Loezswys would probably come out sounding something like 'loozwiss'. For Klyngeim it's probably coming out as either 'kleengaym' or 'kleengeem'.
But basically just pick whatever you can say most reliably. Merlwyb is the only Sea Wolf whose name was ever said out loud to my knowledge, Sea Wolf names are in pretty much an entirely constructed language, and the game is so inconsistent about pronunciation that they say a character's name two different ways in the same cutscene, so it's not like someone's gonna pull you up on it. -
10-27-2022, 05:03 PMRongway
Because "z" and "s" are just the voiced and unvoiced sounds from the same mouth and tongue formation, the "s" will probably present more as the release of the "z" as you transition toward the "w". Give the "w" just a little bit of "v". You can hear this in Merlwyb's name in cutscenes where she introduces herself, though sometimes it's only audible in one of her names.
"Klyngeim" is kleen-gime like "time". The rule for "ei" isn't explicitly stated in the Roegadyn pronunciation rules but since Roegadyn language is meant to "feel" Germanic it's almost certainly pronounced like the vowel in "time" rather than in "tame" or "team".
Potential pun note regarding Klyngeim: Klyn is small but Klyng is brook. If you put two words together and the two letters that connect them are the same, one gets deleted. So Klyngeim is also how you would spell Klyng+geim, Brook Jewel. Someone who is somewhat familiar with Roegadyn but not fluent might mistakenly parse it that way rather than Small Jewel. -
10-28-2022, 01:28 AMIscah
Something that I think might have been overlooked when they were developing the pronunciation rules for Sea Wolves is that a lot of the ones with "z" in them look like they might be intended to be pronounced with a "tz" sound like in German, but this isn't specified.
I'm in the middle of trying to assemble some more in-depth naming lists/guides for the various races, so I went looking through the list of Sea Wolf names in the game and checked the Japanese spellings for names with "z" in them to see how they're sounded out. (Please correct my amateur katakana reading if I'm off the mark!)
Most relevantly, Loezkirz is ルーツキルツ (RU- TSU KI RU TSU or roughly "Lootz kirtz").
Also it seems that usually they represent the Roegadyn "w" as they would an English "v", though it's still going to be somewhere inbetween those two letters.
Other names with a "z" (and no preceding written "t") in them:
Other names using the "tz" pronunciation for "z":
Bloezoeng ブルーツング BU RU TSU N GU "Blootzoong"
Zirnberk ツィルンベルク TSi RU N BE RU KU "Tzeern berk"
Zwynwyda ツィンウィダ TSi N Ui DA "Tzeen weeda"
Names pronouncing "z" as in English:
Faezahr フェーズアール Fe- ZU A- RU
Merlzirn メルジルン ME RU ZI RU N
Solkzagyl ソルクザギル SO RU KU ZA GI RU
Swozblaet スヴォズブレート SU Vo ZU BU RE- TO "Svoz blet"
Wyrnzoen ヴィルンズーン Vi RU N ZU- N "Veern zoon"
Zagylswerd ザギルスヴェルド ZA GI RU SU Ve RU DO "Zaggle sverd"
Zanthael ザントヘール ZA N TO HE- RU "Zant hehl"
Zwynberk ズヴィンベルク ZU Vi N BE RU KU "Zveen berk"
Names pronouncing "z" with a softer "s":
Foerzagyl フールサギル FU- RU SA GI RU
Glazrael グラスレール GU RA SU RE- RU
And a name that can't decide which approach it's going for:
Hezzkhezl ヘッツケスル HE t TSU KE SU RU "Hetzkessel"
It seems that the translators don't keep a consistent version of how they represent the names in Japanese. You can see in the lists above that "Zirn", "Zagyl" and "Zwyn" have been translated differently at presumably different times.
I think I would go for the "Lootz" pronounciation for Loez, and merge the first S of Swys into that sound to get something like "Lootz svis" but fluidly without a clear break between syllables?
The cutscene for the quest Sage Council refers to Wilfsunn, Bloewyda and Moenbryda by name.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleretic
I feel like it would be more likely to go the other way, and that someone non-fluent would easily take the word as presented but might overlook the possibility that a missing letter needs to be restored before the name can be separated correctly. (Though of course it would depend on which words they know and can recognise.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Rongway
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10-31-2022, 12:47 AMkaynide
+1 to names being inconsistent, even across languages. Typically the Ancients utilize Greek language names, despite also using lots of Latin references.
Venat for example is “Venus” in Japanese. It may be because the Japanese Ivalice character was also written as Venus. It might be because Venus is well known in Japanese.
Personally, with my experience working with Japanese businesses and helping with branding/product names etc, it most likely boiled down to:
A) “you should use Aphrodite because it’s consistent”
B) “mendokusai, nanja so no namae.. A-fu-ro-da-ii-chi? Bi-na-su de ii janai? Kantan janai?” (That’s hard to say/aweful, what the heck is with this name? Isn’t Venus fine? It’s easier to say.)
Regarding your actual question OP, I think it’s perfectly fine to pick how you wanna say it. ToMAYto ToMAHto right?
This has a lot to do with Japanese katakana shenanigans. I am assuming you know all this, but just adding it for anyone curious about what’s going on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iscah
There is a lack of certain common characters in English, or the way sounds are made are constructed differently.
For example, many combinations with I are off (So, a-i-u-e-o with T becomes Ta-Chi-Tsu-Te-To)… where as we would say “Ti” to make “Tea”, they actually say Te-i.
To;dr, any time Japanese letters go to I or U, weird magicks are afoot.
https://misajapanesedictionary.files...art.jpg?w=1120 -
10-31-2022, 04:14 AMIscahYour explanation covers odd katakana representations in general but has no bearing on whether the non-Japanese sound they're trying to approximate is a "z" or a "tz", because either sound can be represented if the translator chooses. (I assume the Roegadyn names were built in English to begin with and then translated into Japanese, so the katakana spellings are just another way at seeing what the writers intended.)Quote:
Originally Posted by kaynide
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10-31-2022, 07:29 AMClereticAcross languages is almost understandable, sometimes the specific sounds used for a name just don't really exist in another, or they just don't really compare notes too closely; a great example there is 'Mhach', which is written and probably pronounced completely differently in Japanese because they don't really have that word-ending 'ch' sound.Quote:
Originally Posted by kaynide
My favorites are that 'Bahamut' is pronounced differently by different actors in the scene where we first meet Tiamat, and that 'Asahi' is pronounced differently by Alphinaud in two separate instances, despite the rest of the line being identical. -
10-31-2022, 10:13 AMkaynideThat very likely boils down to (as you said) what the translator decided to do at that specific time. With different translators making different decisions on non major characters you get situations like Cleretic said with multiple pronunciations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iscah
I don’t know the specifics in FFXIV, but from what I have seen working here, bigger anime/games in Japan often have a sort of “bible” with name/item/etc pronunciations written out so different workers can all have consistent katakana spellings. (I can’t speak for every company, but I have some knowledge with Nintendo/Pokémon; and universal studios related projects)
You are probably right about them starting in English though- I think the devs mention that somewhere regarding proper nouns in the game.
@Cleretic: Mhachi is weird- my wife reads it as Mah-hah. Or Mah-Hee (she legit thought Rak’tika bgm was yelling Mah-Hee at her, and thought Ronka was some weird cross dimensional Machi thing) -
10-31-2022, 11:39 AMClereticThe official pronunciation of 'Mhach', for the record, is 'mahk'; like the speed or the razors. But to my knowledge it was only ever said in an English-language livestream event around the Weeping City's release, so it's not exactly stated very loudly. In Japanese it's written as basically 'ma-ha', but again, that's because they just don't have that word-ending 'k' sound.Quote:
Originally Posted by kaynide
One of those situations where there is a right answer, but it's too much effort to bother being correct! -
10-31-2022, 01:12 PMkaynideStory of my professional life in translation!Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleretic
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10-31-2022, 01:20 PMRongwayNo, if they wanted to pronounce it with a K they could easily pronounce it maku or maaku. They pronounce it maha because in Gaelic the CH is a voiceless velar fricative /x/ (like the CH in the Scottish Loch Lomond, German buch, Greek τέχνη techni, Hebrew מִיכָאֵל Micha'el, etc) and the glottal fricative /h/ is the closest sound in Japanese phonology. If an English speaker were to pronounce it Ma-h with a bit of breathiness at the end, it would be closer to the right sound than /mak/.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleretic
Nevermind that the Gaelic MH is pronounced [v] tho....