Dear Paladins...

Please learn Provoke.

LOL

/10char

lolwut?

/10char

Nice! lol
It's a first step I guess. =)

I don't get it...

There are PLDs out there that have no idea they can equip provoke. It's one reason why folks aren't using PLD tanks, sadly.

lol really?

Really? First thing I did when I got my PLD is find Provoke and put it in the "1" tab on the first row. PLD without this is never going to have a good time.

I agree, PLD should most definatly have Provoke, but no good pld absoulutly needs it. Its good for hate resets and grabing hate off a crafter durring Hamlet Defense. As far as an emnity builder its realy quite minimal, I find agros that have aditional effects like debuff/damage work better, but never the less still good to have.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

I agree, PLD should most definatly have Provoke, but no good pld absoulutly needs it. Its good for hate resets and grabing hate off a crafter durring Hamlet Defense. As far as an emnity builder its realy quite minimal, I find agros that have aditional effects like debuff/damage work better, but never the less still good to have.

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This is...just....no. Just no.

As a tank you want every possible hate tool at your disposal. You're going to run into extremely well geared BLM's with double and triple melds, and even a few melee who have their stuff together. When that happens, you're going to need those hate tools.

Don't listen to what was quoted. The best PLD will always have anything and everything to be better at his/her job.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alerith

This is...just....no. Just no.

As a tank you want every possible hate tool at your disposal. You're going to run into extremely well geared BLM's with double and triple melds, and even a few melee who have their stuff together. When that happens, you're going to need those hate tools.

Don't listen to what was quoted. The best PLD will always have anything and everything to be better at his/her job.

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Not to mention that stable and effective Enmity generation is based on spamming those abilities in conjuncture with Sentinel/WS + your other defensive abilities for maximum effectiveness, so the idea of giving up one of your best and reliable tools is ridiculous

Like I've said in other threads, ignore that guy!

Provoke is more enmity than flash too...

All I can say is PLD needs a little hate buff !! :P

5 monks with AF weapon/GC weapon and good gear then poor me without H.Darklight = Spamming of everything I can get just to hold hate long enough for move on miser ><.

Tis fun tho but I realise I need more double meld emnity gearz or H.Dark.

Anyways provoke is a very useful tool but I sometimes save it for when coincounter does animal instinct :).

My two cent

Any sustained DPS like Monk is always a pain in the ass. They just keep creeping up on your hate ceiling. Maybe its a trait of monks on my server, but they have no mind for their own survivability, they just keep whacking away.

LOL , yeah, IGNORE THAT GUY, you guys are rich, never said they shouldnt use provoke simply said a good tank should not NEED to rely on provoke to keep hate. Wich is the truth, and frankly usefull information in fights where hate reset accurs. Having voke and or flash available for those situations can and often saves the party. You are telling people to ignore me wich means you are apposed to the Idea, one can only assume. if thats that case, you perfer they use all their abilities on CC even if its not needed and IF a mage pulls hate on primal , well then hope for one of your abilities to be ready? NO NO, your right, Ignore me, I make no sense what soo ever. Not sure why SE even lets you guys post anymore, giving realy bad advice to players is an awsome way for one to drive players away from a game or at the very least confuse them and reduce there want to play.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MoarLegion

Provoke is more enmity than flash too...

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oh, you must be one of those guys with a hate meter that give a number value to enmity abilities, man sure wish I had one of those....

Or maybe you can post the patch note/ comment from developer that quotes "enmity from flash while on pld is weaker then that of provoke" your a genius , I also love how no one is telling people to "Ignore this guy" maybe because he agrees with em... guess just proves you can be total moron but as long as you agree with the masses your a "good tank"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

oh, you must be one of those guys with a hate meter that give a number value to enmity abilities, man sure wish I had one of those....

Or maybe you can post the patch note/ comment from developer that quotes "enmity from flash while on pld is weaker then that of provoke" your a genius , I also love how no one is telling people to "Ignore this guy" maybe because he agrees with em... guess just proves you can be total moron but as long as you agree with the masses your a "good tank"

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Here ya go.

Taken straight from Kaeko's enmity testing:

http://hcd-1.imgbox.com/aayy8jDo.png

Flash: 363
Provoke: 568

So at one point at least Provoke did generate more Enmity than Flash.

Now some of these have changed since then (like the flat blade and skull sunder modifiers, which were mentioned in patches), but no further testing has been done afaik, and most values haven't changed. And here's a thread you might want to read: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ation%29/page1

While you're at it, check out worthless DEF becomes as mob levels are higher than yours:
http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...entry?e=317908

haha, this thread is epic win.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GreyJorildyn

Here ya go.

Taken straight from Kaeko's enmity testing:

http://hcd-1.imgbox.com/aayy8jDo.png

Flash: 363
Provoke: 568

So at one point at least Provoke did generate more Enmity than Flash.

Now some of these have changed since then (like the flat blade and skull sunder modifiers, which were mentioned in patches), but no further testing has been done afaik, and most values haven't changed. And here's a thread you might want to read: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ation%29/page1

While you're at it, check out worthless DEF becomes as mob levels are higher than yours:
http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...entry?e=317908

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I have seen the charts , but what i have never seen is the raw data, as far as the numbers you got for enmity, question 1 is on what job, voke on war is gona be stronger then pld and same can be said for flash on pld over war, second question is what program was used to accuratly guage these numbers, simply posting numbers and saying "heres your proof" is pointless. if that was the case then i could say

provoke = 3 hate

flash = 300 hate

and that would be suffice to prove your chart up there wrong, not saying its inaccurate, yet, but I would love to know what program was used to determin those numbers or if this guy is simply pulling numbers outa his ass because thats what he thinks each voke is worth....

also, if this was done prior to jobs, and judging by the fact that there are no jobs listed, i would guess it was. If it was done prior to jobs then , I would have to say that voke prolly did have a strong hate pull because you could equip mrds traits as well as their abilities. soo either way you proved nothing other then when faced with looking like an idiot you get desprate and post any nonsense hoping the oposition dosent know anybetter.

Again as for your hp vs def charts, you can post charts all day brother , they mean = squat, when i was tested by a pld who stacks hp , and has triple teir 4 melds on almost all their gear, they openly admited i took roughly 250 damage less per hit. they usually get hit for over 600, that, my friend, is over 30% damage mitigation, this I can prove/ simply meet me anywhere , in any fight and I will prove it, raw , unaltered, unbiased data.

basicly I am strait up telling you that your flat out wrong. FACT, deal with it.

And I am straight up telling you you're an idiot now.

You asked for "proof", and now you have it. ALL the methodology for how the tests were done are linked where I gave you. You still say I am wrong. You still choose to be ignorant when all the actual facts (hint: a fact is something that is true, not necessarily something you personally believe) are presented to you. You know what? You're hopeless. Enjoy gimping up Sarganatas. Just please stop helping to gimp upcoming Paladins with your nonsense. That's all I am asking!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GreyJorildyn

And I am straight up telling you you're an idiot now.

You asked for "proof", and now you have it. ALL the methodology for how the tests were done are linked where I gave you. You still say I am wrong. You still choose to be ignorant when all the actual facts (hint: a fact is something that is true, not necessarily something you personally believe) are presented to you. You know what? You're hopeless. Enjoy gimping up Sarganatas. Just please stop helping to gimp upcoming Paladins with your nonsense. That's all I am asking!

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WOW , you are realy ignorant. Charts without raw data, and the scientific processes in wich said data was gathered, are worthless. You call that evidance, and you still cant accept the fact that I can take 30%+ less damage then you any day of the week on ANY mob, like i said, I am down for any challange, hell fraps it if you want. You say I am gimping upcoming plds yet your telling them "def is worthless" . Either your a troll or just ignorant. still waiting for the program in wich a valid number value was scored per action used....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

I have seen the charts , but what i have never seen is the raw data, as far as the numbers you got for enmity, question 1 is on what job, voke on war is gona be stronger then pld and same can be said for flash on pld over war, second question is what program was used to accuratly guage these numbers, simply posting numbers and saying "heres your proof" is pointless. if that was the case then i could say

provoke = 3 hate

flash = 300 hate

and that would be suffice to prove your chart up there wrong, not saying its inaccurate, yet, but I would love to know what program was used to determin those numbers or if this guy is simply pulling numbers outa his ass because thats what he thinks each voke is worth....

also, if this was done prior to jobs, and judging by the fact that there are no jobs listed, i would guess it was. If it was done prior to jobs then , I would have to say that voke prolly did have a strong hate pull because you could equip mrds traits as well as their abilities. soo either way you proved nothing other then when faced with looking like an idiot you get desprate and post any nonsense hoping the oposition dosent know anybetter.

Again as for your hp vs def charts, you can post charts all day brother , they mean = squat, when i was tested by a pld who stacks hp , and has triple teir 4 melds on almost all their gear, they openly admited i took roughly 250 damage less per hit. they usually get hit for over 600, that, my friend, is over 30% damage mitigation, this I can prove/ simply meet me anywhere , in any fight and I will prove it, raw , unaltered, unbiased data.

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still waiting for a valid response to this post

"I did finally manage to get Ace to show me how he does in an instance, and I tried to use an unbiased judgement as best I could even though I am strongly in favor of HP and strongly against Def/Vit.

The stipulation set forth was that we were to fully PuG the group so we had whm's that were unfamiliar with our tanking styles as well as unaware of when burst damage would come, so they were slow on pre-loading a cura. We did CC, 1 strong/physical heavy fight (princess) and 1 Magical intensive fight (chimera). We also agreed to not use food or potions so that this would be purely testing skill/gear. I played the role of a DD to stress his enmity while he obviously tanked.

On Princess his build was strong, being a pure physical fight. Regen kept him up at all times, he did not use sentinel regularly, used rampart on cd, and used stoneskin on cd. On an unmitigated hit (only had protect up) he took roughly 200 dmg from princess, however I was unable to see how much her ws did. Many times throughout the encounter the whm's would aoe, being that we were a pug many couldn't time/save their aoe's for the adds. 1 draw back from the nature of Vit stacking, his hp was lower than I like, so his threat was a bit on the low side, Spirits Within wasn't hitting hard enough. With me as a knowledgeable DD for the encounter, I know what to do when and as such I had to hold back for fear of pulling Princess (red the whole fight until about 30% hp left on princess where I danced red/yellow).

Chimera was the complete opposite unfortunately. We did have a trigger happy DD who pulled chimera off the bat, so I did try to look past this. Positioning was off, but again a trigger happy DD, and the PuG went with what i call the split group setup, whm's a touch closer than the DD's. This may have been decided due to the positioning issue, but let me get to the juicy part. Things appeared to be going smoothly, DD were doing what they were suppose to, Whm's seem to have a handle on things, Ace seemed to have decent threat. First breath, Breath of the Ram, hit Ace like a truck and brought him close to 500 hp left or less. Again due to the nature of this group, the whm's were unprepared for this, and Ace did not dodge it for reasons i know not, be it lag, laziness, or animation lock. The next hit killed Ace, and 2 Cura's failed to go off, my assumption is Unable to cast on KO target.

While Ace's build is strong on a purely physical fight, it needs coordination with whm's and some level of skill throughout the party, not ideal for pug's in the least. HP provides that cushion to keep things from going crazy fast, and enmity via Spirits Within however provides 0 mitigation benefits and rely's more heavily on the pld's skill to time cd's/dodge ws's/whm's able to cure bomb.

tl:dr Def/Vit provides excellent mitigation for physical only fights, HP provides cushion and enmity. Pick your poison or mix and match.

This is purely for the sake of Def/Vit vs HP "


sorry I am not as proficient with the forums but this is a copy pasted post from a player who wanted to test the theory. after the fight he said I too roughly 250 damage less then him on avg where the avg hit on him was 600+. granted this was all physical but it was on a boss mob, most certainly over 10 lvls then my lvl 50.

You might take less damage per hit, but I guarantee you take more total damage since the rest of your party has to gimp themselves so you can keep hate. Your fights probably drag on longer than they should. That's evident in your admittance to not having a group to even do speed runs. All your advice is just bad. I mean come on, you started this thread by suggesting that any GOOD tank DOESN'T NEED provoke to hold hate. Fact is any GOOD tank is running with decent players which make him/her require Provoke on their bar. You don't listen to yourself when you post I think.

I don't need to prove anything. If you want to look at the scientific method behind the tests, I've already given you enough links to find it. You want to be ignorant about it because you're only good enough to get crafted gear with melds on it. And I'd be ok with that except you then choose to comment on how PLDs should gear end game based on your personal experiences which are clearly limited to running with PUGs. That's like the smartest kid in algebra teaching the class for a whole year. What I am saying is that you have yet to really experience what difficult raiding is like because you are not challenged by anyone but yourself (mentally that is). As a result, you're in no position to be teaching new players anything, and up until now all you've provided is mostly shallow and uninformed guidance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GreyJorildyn

You might take less damage per hit, but I guarantee you take more total damage since the rest of your party has to gimp themselves so you can keep hate. Your fights probably drag on longer than they should. That's evident in your admittance to not having a group to even do speed runs. All your advice is just bad. I mean come on, you started this thread by suggesting that any GOOD tank DOESN'T NEED provoke to hold hate. Fact is any GOOD tank is running with decent players which make him/her require Provoke on their bar. You don't listen to yourself when you post I think.

I don't need to prove anything. If you want to look at the scientific method behind the tests, I've already given you enough links to find it. You want to be ignorant about it because you're only good enough to get crafted gear with melds on it. And I'd be ok with that except you then choose to comment on how PLDs should gear end game based on your personal experiences which are clearly limited to running with PUGs. That's like the smartest kid in algebra teaching the class for a whole year. What I am saying is that you have yet to really experience what difficult raiding is like because you are not challenged by anyone but yourself (mentally that is).

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thats funny, was a little upset now I am just laughing, your an idiot. soo basicly your saying you CANT back your charts and graphs. Yeah, your right, my dds are holding back thats why we arent getting speed kills. Only problem with your theory is if it was correct, I wouldnt be able to hold back on provoke and keep hate.... your and idiot. lmfao, Im in tears , this is soo funny. Ok mate, I will stop, now you got me feeling like a troll. you stack that HP like a big dummy, and go tell all those noobs to do the same, I realy dont care. fact is I can overide anything you have to say simply by showing people how my tank performs over the opostion. Hate control is not an issue for me much less staying alive. Even tho I know you wish I would stop posting that , you have yet to prove anything and all I have to do is show anyone who wishes to challange my claims and thats all it would take.

At first I thought you were a troll, but then I realized you were being serious...

I am done speaking with you.

For everyone else, go read what all the rational people had to say in Tachi's guide. It's a good one for sure :)

I have nothing to gain by posting false information. Only reason I still post what I know about tanking , is because people were on here posting that "HP was the #1 tank stat" after I replied by basicly calling those players ignorant, I became public enemy number one. I honestly do not care lol. Fact is I have nothing to gain by posting what I know about tanking. If you wish for me to stop then you have two options:

1) Get SE to declair that DEF is broken and dose not work
2) Prove your claims are true , with raw data, not charts built off of players intuition

I dont think anybody oppose or saying def is worthless, find a quote from anyone that says that, people just dont want new PLDs that really do want to immerse themself in accomplishing endgame to listen to you bc while yes that DEF/turtle build has its uses, it is not doing it job well and very non optimal when it comes to accomplishing speedruns which is pretty much what everyone is after.

Taking less damage has no use if it means DPS has to hold back because prolonging fight just makes the fight more dangerous.

I am also not here to say def is worthless, but i will here to say to Ace that you are burden to a party and probably the cause of terrible boss runs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

fact is I can overide anything you have to say simply by showing people how my tank performs over the opostion.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tman

First breath, Breath of the Ram, hit Ace like a truck and brought him close to 500 hp left or less. Again due to the nature of this group, the whm's were unprepared for this, and Ace did not dodge it for reasons i know not, be it lag, laziness, or animation lock. The next hit killed Ace

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Aceofspades Aircav.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

I dont think anybody oppose or saying def is worthless, find a quote from anyone that says that, people just dont want new PLDs that really do want to immerse themself in accomplishing endgame to listen to you bc while yes that DEF/turtle build has its uses, it is not doing it job well and very non optimal when it comes to accomplishing speedruns which is pretty much what everyone is after.

Taking less damage has no use if it means DPS has to hold back because prolonging fight just makes the fight more dangerous.

I am also not here to say def is worthless, but i will here to say to Ace that you are burden to a party and probably the cause of terrible boss runs.

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from grey

"While you're at it, check out worthless DEF becomes as mob levels are higher than yours:"

lol the fact that HP vs Def holds no effect to hate hold, determining that a def build hurts hate hold in any way is ignorant, as far as a burden on the mages, again, your wrong, dosent matter how much HP you have, if your gona get hit like a truck there is a good chance the healers are already cure bombing the tank anyways. soo other then being one shotted by a tp or magic move hp offers nothing more then a bit of a cushon for the whm's. on that note, there are very few boss abilties ,wether physical or magical, that reduce a tank's hp bar to that extent, and other then hell fire , wich is easly overcome, I have heard of no ability that can drain more then 3k hp from on single attack other then 100tonze in wich case def/vit build dose in fact add more survivability to that particular fight then HP.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stufoo

Aceofspades Aircav.

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from the same post by Tman

"On Princess his build was strong, being a pure physical fight. Regen kept him up at all times, he did not use sentinel regularly, used rampart on cd, and used stoneskin on cd. On an unmitigated hit (only had protect up) he took roughly 200 dmg from princess"

a dd who jumped the gun combined with WHMs who were not postioned or ready to cure, combined with myself not being postioned right due to the fact that I was having to go back and pull chimera off the DRG meant that I was myself not ready for this ability otherwise it is likely to not have hit me at all. PUG group often result in botched runs

We've had discussions like this before Ace and most of us completely agree that defense and VIT are good and necessary, however the point of deminishing returns is too low, too easy to cap, or requires absurd DEF/VIT obtain due to the D-Level factor.

But you know what Ace this whole ongoing DEF/VIT argument that you've been crusade about shouldn't even really be going on PERIOD because (And I'm going to be vocal and frankly biased by this point)

"DEF/VIT MATERIA CAN ONLY BE PUT ON VERY FEW, SELECTIVE PIECES OF GEAR, HP CAN BE PUT ON DAMN NEAR ANYTHING. EVEN MIXING YOUR ONLY OUT 200-300ISH HP AT THE MOST, SO YOU CAN HAVE YOUR EFF'IN CAKE AND EAT IT TOO! SO DROP IT! FFFS!"

Secondly, your personal play style does not advocate good methodology on paper or in practice. Saying you can do this and that (such as purposely eating 100-Tonze Swing) is more of a look what I can do or this is easier for me, than hey what can make this go faster, is safer, and runs the best chance of success.

Lastly, in either an LS or PUG you should know that players expect things of you just as you would of them. If that means avoiding 100-Tonze Swing so close ranged DD's have a shot to wail on CC when he's on his ass, and WHM's don't have a heart attack every 5 second from back to back 100-Tonze Swings, then by all means you should be adjusting your strategy to help the group win more than to suit your personal playstyle.

There is a very fine line of being unable to pick up the slack of other players, and choosing to slow down the group even more just because you want to play a particular way, or even being a hinderance to your group because you want to strictly enforce your own playstyle.

Weather or not your advocating people to try your method, you know your methods are usually not well suited nor suggested for new players, so there is little to no point in even suggesting or going to the great lengths of defending your posts, especially when you come around saying "I don't care what players do or if they do what I do".

/rant off

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

from grey

"While you're at it, check out worthless DEF becomes as mob levels are higher than yours:"

lol the fact that HP vs Def holds no effect to hate hold, determining that a def build hurts hate hold in any way is ignorant, as far as a burden on the mages, again, your wrong, dosent matter how much HP you have, if your gona get hit like a truck there is a good chance the healers are already cure bombing the tank anyways. soo other then being one shotted by a tp or magic move hp offers nothing more then a bit of a cushon for the whm's. on that note, there are very few boss abilties ,wether physical or magical, that reduce a tank's hp bar to that extent, and other then hell fire , wich is easly overcome, I have heard of no ability that can drain more then 3k hp from on single attack other then 100tonze in wich case def/vit build dose in fact add more survivability to that particular fight then HP.

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I didnt know we.were ddiscussing def vs hp build lol.
As far as i know its your setup vs what we thought is optimal, which is enmity all the way and since we used alot of slot for enmity there are little slot left for defense which isnt doing much unless we have alot of it.

Survivabilty is never an issue.with good WHMs, but if you have top DPS there is no way you can keep hate in fight like.misser.

When will the community learn that Ace is a troll, and arguing with a troll merely empowers them.
A troll doesn't rely on facts or even logic, only the illusion of those things. Sometimes, not even an illusion, but a complete lack thereof.

I quote Mark Twain: "Do not argue with an idiot, they will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

We've had discussions like this before Ace and most of us completely agree that defense and VIT are good and necessary, however the point of deminishing returns is too low, too easy to cap, or requires absurd DEF/VIT obtain due to the D-Level factor.

But you know what Ace this whole ongoing DEF/VIT argument that you've been crusade about shouldn't even really be going on PERIOD because (And I'm going to be vocal and frankly biased by this point)

"DEF/VIT MATERIA CAN ONLY BE PUT ON VERY FEW, SELECTIVE PIECES OF GEAR, HP CAN BE PUT ON DAMN NEAR ANYTHING. EVEN MIXING YOUR ONLY OUT 200-300ISH HP AT THE MOST, SO YOU CAN HAVE YOUR EFF'IN CAKE AND EAT IT TOO! SO DROP IT! FFFS!"

Secondly, your personal play style does not advocate good methodology on paper or in practice. Saying you can do this and that (such as purposely eating 100-Tonze Swing) is more of a look what I can do or this is easier for me, than hey what can make this go faster, is safer, and runs the best chance of success.

Lastly, in either an LS or PUG you should know that players expect things of you just as you would of them. If that means avoiding 100-Tonze Swing so close ranged DD's have a shot to wail on CC when he's on his ass, and WHM's don't have a heart attack every 5 second from back to back 100-Tonze Swings, then by all means you should be adjusting your strategy to help the group win more than to suit your personal playstyle.

There is a very fine line of being unable to pick up the slack of other players, and choosing to slow down the group even more just because you want to play a particular way, or even being a hinderance to your group because you want to strictly enforce your own playstyle.

Weather or not your advocating people to try your method, you know your methods are usually not well suited nor suggested for new players, so there is little to no point in even suggesting or going to the great lengths of defending your posts, especially when you come around saying "I don't care what players do or if they do what I do".

/rant off

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would like to touch on your sixth paragraph, in wich I fully agree with. Just not sure if your fully understanding my argument. IF you can eat 100% of 100 tonze and keep near full health without healer support, this prevents you from having to run from the attack wich still has a chance to hit you with or without server lag, I will agree it dose take some skill to time running from the attack with a degree of success. But there inlies the problem. Your basicly have two choices when it comes down to a situation like 100 tonze

1: Use your gear and well timed abilities in order to negate the damage. This offers one distinct problem, the gear must be substantially suited for what ever fight you plan on strait tanking , in wich case, for 100 tonze, vit and def are an obvious stats to stack. Not an easy build , I fully agree , but we are not saying wich is easiest to build but wich stats are ultimatly better for the job.

2: you can attempt avoiding the attack alltogether. In this case , avoiding 100 tonze actually incaps the boss for a few seconds wich would be valuable time if mages needed to regen mp for heals , nukes , ect. However, there are two distinct disadvantages to this tatic.
1: running from a tp/mp moves requires free movement, and sense there is no 100% way to insure you will not be caught in animation lock, due to randomness of the procing of tp/mp moves (even with useing the action log) there is still an off chance to be caught off guard.
2: Server latiency has been an issue since the games release. This is said to be corrected with 2.0 , that being said, it is still an issue, to advise any player without knowing their hardware and/or how the server decides it wants to act that particular day, I think its rather ambitious to expect everyone NOT to have lateincy issues. I said all that to say this, IF you have latiency issues, you can be standing well out of range of 100 tonze seconds before it gose off and still get hit by it, this is the reason Ifrrit was such a pain in the beginning.

I think both sides have their issues, I personally perferr to use my tatic and do not see how I would be bringing down the party by doing so. CC sitting on his butt takes as much damage as he dose standing up. Those additional seconds to recharge mp would be important IF the mages had to be mobile at any point in the fight, in this particular fight , they do not. And by me strait tanking CC I can insure with a greater certainty that I will survive then if I were to turn my back on CC in attempts to flee his hardest hitting move. and being that not only do PLD's take more damage from the rear but half the pre-emptive abilties I used to negate damage from 100 tonze would be worthless as they only work if I face the target hitting me. And all this dosent even take into account for animation lock, should I get stuck in the middle of a combo, I would have no time to run and just enough time to pop sentinal or ageious boon. Seeing how I know I am gona get hit anyways, just makes more sense to prepair for a devistating blow rather then attempt to run from it.

If one can take the damage and be as survivable as one who runs from the damage, sounds like there is even less to gain from fleeing an enemy ability. After all, if 100 tonze hit everyone for 500 damage would we still run from it? If it was convient to Avoid , I would say yes, but sense it is not , I would have to say no.

Certainly there are fights in wich Abilties must be avoided, but then again there are fights in wich abilities can not be avoided. To build a ends all tatic for every fight off of the ignorant assumptions for one fight , to distribute as "the way" to fight a boss for new comers is dangerous for any new comer to the game. You may not agree , But to try to discredit me because you personally disagree is just ignorant.

I have offered the terms in wich I will take back all my claims and tatics that I endorse on the forums. And that is, either someone comes forth with raw data ( not charts based on data collected in wich we have no evidance of even existing) via video or parse or both. Or the developers them selves tell release a statement in wich they say that DEF and or VIT are essenutally broken.

One more statement I will conqure with to some reguard before I go. Yes, I know and agree that the amount of DEF one must have inorder to be of any note in a boss fight must be great in comparison to single or no materiaed rare/ex gear. This being said, double stacking vit and def is not that hard , if one soo wished and was inclined to try. Expensive? ABSOULUTELY! But if getting epic gear was easy , why on earth would anyone care to have it much less play a game in wich building a "endgame set" was yet another aspect that was handed over to the casual player as an insentive to play. No offense to the casual gamer but , why would a hard core gamer play if everything they attained can be done on the weekend for a casual gamer? I know this is a little off subject , but, I for one like a mmo with some prestige in attaining hard to get things. To conclude this statement I will simply say, your gear is what you put into it, Yoshi P in his understanding of the mechanics of this game has briliantly designed it in such a way that no longer is epic gear simply droped , or easly crafted, its a culmination of farming/crafting/risk/ and stat stacking. One can make up his or her own mind how they wish to go about building their gear, I simply like to , and implore others to, stack def/vit as main priority for tanking, IF you disagree, you are entitled to do so, but you can not factually discredit my claims without the terms I listed above. Point and case.

sorry for any mis-spellings, not the best when it comes to writing.

If you wrote like this more often Ace, perhaps people would take you a bit more seriously.

Wow nice job, Ace step'd up his grammer (I mean no disrespect here). Instead of coming off as an arrogant know-it-all, I can see some semblance of logic to his arguments here finally. The broken speech and grammer was making it a bit difficult to decipher your arguments (at least for me). Will that stop the flamers? probably not, but I do wish you luck. I for one however am of a mind to mix and match now that i met my goal of 5k hp, will start looking into +enmity/vit/def/M.eva/pie(highly doubtful).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

Shortened for the sake of posters.

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Firstly, I'd like to thank you for taking the effort to actually write out your response.

Reading over your response I think we can all agree things like server latency, lag, and other issues are ongoing problems, and there is always those "Oh, Shit!" moments, your caught off guard, or mis-time your abilities, we're not arguing that, it's a given.

(BTW These are my assumptions based on what you wrote and have written in the past, not a statement of your ability to play being I cannot fully validate your capabilities from personal experience.)

Now if your having issues with latency and lag as whole which prevents you from performing like normal players, it might be just due to your graphics card playing catch-up with the game itself. If you haven't already, I suggest lowering the General / Background Drawing Quality (5/1 are my current settings) and lowering / disabling some of the effects (especially shadows). I had all kinds of issues with Eruptions, Mistral Shrieks, and 100-Tonze Swings until I had lowered the settings some. Even if you find your current style more suitable still, it should help in situations like Chimera where avoiding his moves is necessary.

Putting Latency and Lag aside now, you mentioned that avoiding the move was an issue for you sometimes. I'm just curious if you ever noticed there were two types of 100-Tonze moves (Swing and Swipe), Swing being the potentially 1-Shot move and easily avoidable, while Swipe hits hard but is much faster and much more survivable than Swing. I'm not trying to insult your intelligence or anything, it's easy to miss and hard to judge the moves apart if your not carefully reading the chat log to anticipate attacks, but if that's the case then making attempts to try avoiding Swing should be much easier for you if you choose to do so.

As for my earlier statement about your method not good in methodology or practice, allow me to go over some of the finer points of what I'm getting at and why it looks very unattractive to the majority (and myself for that matter), it has much less to do with being decked out and being able to easily take the brunt of 100-Tonze Swing and relies more on principle of what avoiding the move really does for your party.

-100-Tonze Swing does have the capability to one shot PLD (HP/DEF/VIT or otherwise) without mitigation abilities, stoneskin, w/e up. (Shit happens, everything's on cool-down, etc.)
-Surviving 100-Tonze Swing can be painful, and WHM can only heal about half of a PLD's HP in a single Cura, which could leave a PLD in a predicament if the WHM's cannot heal fast enough and CC follows through with another 100 Tonze move or Glower.
-At 50% CC will start spamming Weaponskills back-to-back leaving little to no breathing room for your healers, who may need to assist the melee's or regain mp. For example, if CC decides to spam 100-Tonze Swings, and your WHM/s get's silenced from slugs it can ruin a PLD's day.
-Additionally, (as you mentioned some of these) CC on his ass means WHM's have additional time to heal, regenerate mp, nuke, recover from silence, etc., but it also means the WHM's don't have to heal as often overall meaning more mp conservation and time to nuke and assist. PLD themselves, will also have enough of a breather to throw out a combo or two without worrying about mitigation abilities, or toss a Holy Succor on themselves, and let the WHM's focus on other things.
-Decreases the chances and opportunities of annoying moves like Animal Instinct and Eye of the Beholder from disturbing the flow of battle.

Taking those points into consideration, taking 100-Tonze Swing head on means your taking more damage overall, diverting the WHM's attention to you more than necessary to heal that extra damage taken (even if you can help yourself every 10-15 seconds), and giving up a solid opportunity for DD's to attack without hesitation (it can be hard for DD's to combo when he's spamming back to back moves). Overall, I can't see any distinct or real advantage to taking it head on aside from necessity, which is more of the effect of bad game design and hardware or bad luck than player skill or schematics.

As far as the DEF/VIT thing goes, I've already said I've been in favor for the DEF/VIT setup in the past and even speced myself for it, however I can also look at the other side of the coin and see what disadvantages it could bring.

I'm afraid I'm also find it difficult to discern weather or not your just having trouble communicating your thoughts and interpreting what other's try to convey to you, or if your just being stubborn and biased in your postings which seems apparent in some of your replies to players (outside of flamebait posts).