Diminishing returns on Crowd control effects and 8v8v8 for frontlines

lets make it happen SE

id like 8v8v8 but i wanna keep the 24v4v24 as well
i want it both ways

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Originally Posted by sugmacoganbols

id like 8v8v8 but i wanna keep the 24v4v24 as well
i want it both ways

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maybe have a option for 8v8v8?

ye lets have both, sounds good to me

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Originally Posted by sugmacoganbols

ye lets have both, sounds good to me

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perfect, maybe a capture the flag mode with 8v8v8 would be nice (no not the king of the hill bs im talking you pick that flag up and WALK it back to base.)

The way I look at it when getting hit with seemly unlimited CC's in FL is I'm making them waste all of their burst on me so my team will hopefully have an easier time beating them after I die. As it stands right now if they don't adjust the bonus defense on melee back down more they would be able to escape from 99% of encounters if you limited CC. Stacking CC's is literally one of the only ways to kill a good melee player right now in FL.

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Originally Posted by Towa-Musa

perfect, maybe a capture the flag mode with 8v8v8 would be nice (no not the king of the hill bs im talking you pick that flag up and WALK it back to base.)

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Sounds like fun!

I'd rather they make a separate CTF mode, and then bring back 8v8v8 frontlines only when there aren't enough players to fill 72 slots, or 16v16v16 if there are only 48 players etc like before. That way the que isn't split. Shrink down the maps if possible with less players.

I wonder if 5v5v5 would be easier to balance for CTF since that's closer to what CC is like?

DR on crowd control would require a lot of balancing, and would trickle down and affect almost everything.

Like off the top of my head it would make ninjas even more god like because you couldn't lock them down. They'd have to rebalance everyone's kit and HP totals. Heal spam would need to be reduced since you can't burst into multiple stuns.

Idk it doesn't sound awful but, at best it would give the devs a lot of work and at worse it could take away player agency because no more timing cc with other players to secure a kill.

Without crowd control we are pretty much just playing PVE. Pressing damage buttons until one of us has 0hp, and that sounds worse than what we have now.

I'd rather they give everyone a fetter ward ability in addition to purify rather than diminishing returns.

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Originally Posted by RydiaFey

Sounds like fun!

I'd rather they make a separate CTF mode, and then bring back 8v8v8 frontlines only when there aren't enough players to fill 72 slots, or 16v16v16 if there are only 48 players etc like before. That way the que isn't split. Shrink down the maps if possible with less players.

I wonder if 5v5v5 would be easier to balance for CTF since that's closer to what CC is like?

DR on crowd control would require a lot of balancing, and would trickle down and affect almost everything.

Like off the top of my head it would make ninjas even more god like because you couldn't lock them down. They'd have to rebalance everyone's kit and HP totals. Heal spam would need to be reduced since you can't burst into multiple stuns.

Idk it doesn't sound awful but, at best it would give the devs a lot of work and at worse it could take away player agency because no more timing cc with other players to secure a kill.

Without crowd control we are pretty much just playing PVE. Pressing damage buttons until one of us has 0hp, and that sounds worse than what we have now.

I'd rather they give everyone a fetter ward ability in addition to purify rather than diminishing returns.

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or two stacks of purify

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Originally Posted by RydiaFey

Snip snip

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Nah it would let more support oriented classes shine more. Like, there's currently no reason to go bard over red mage since both have the same amount of hard CC, but red mage's kit is more versatile. If they gutted a lot of the CC from DPS jobs, they could let bard have an actual place in games, etc etc. As it is right now it's just bloated with most jobs having two, if not more ways of applying some kind of CC.

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Originally Posted by Karasio

Nah it would let more support oriented classes shine more. Like, there's currently no reason to go bard over red mage since both have the same amount of hard CC, but red mage's kit is more versatile. If they gutted a lot of the CC from DPS jobs, they could let bard have an actual place in games, etc etc. As it is right now it's just bloated with most jobs having two, if not more ways of applying some kind of CC.

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Pretty sure rdm silence is 1sec vs bards 3, and rdm bind is 2sec vs bards 3

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Originally Posted by Towa-Musa

or two stacks of purify

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I thought about that too, not really sure which would help more. Fetter ward would act more like guard in that you have to use it pre-emptivly, which I prefer since we already have an active breakout button.

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Originally Posted by RydiaFey

I thought about that too, not really sure which would help more. Fetter ward would act more like guard in that you have to use it pre-emptivly, which I prefer since we already have an active breakout button.

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fetterward would be as bad as guard since you literally would have to predict the netcode lol

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Originally Posted by Towa-Musa

fetterward would be as bad as guard since you literally would have to predict the netcode lol

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Idk I'm not defending the server tick rates, but after playing a while you kinda just learn when damage is coming your way. If you burned your purify, then you know you'll have to guard the cc and burst.

If one tick off the server kills you then you probably hit guard too late with too few hp. Dots tick through guard which punishes you for pressing it after damage vs before.

I'd I get verflared after I press guard I know I waited too long and they deserved the kill. At least in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Karasio

Nah it would let more support oriented classes shine more. Like, there's currently no reason to go bard over red mage since both have the same amount of hard CC, but red mage's kit is more versatile. If they gutted a lot of the CC from DPS jobs, they could let bard have an actual place in games, etc etc. As it is right now it's just bloated with most jobs having two, if not more ways of applying some kind of CC.

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We're kinda talking about two different things. I was talking about if they added diminishing returns, which wouldn't help a class like bard because they rely more on crowd control, and have two separate abilities that crowd control vs rdm cc sharing a cool down. Like if you tried to silence them on bard, but they resisted it, then you just effectively threw away your biggest win condition.

You're talking about removing cc from other jobs to make bard more unique. Imo this would remove depth from pvp and make it more like a PVE encounter where everyone just presses their buttons in order until everything dies. It's scripted instead of organic like pvp should be.

I think if purify and guard were a little snappier people wouldn't be so bothered by the amount of crowd control. That's probably not going to happen so the next best thing would be giving us more ACTIVE tools, instead of a passive dr on cc.

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Originally Posted by RydiaFey

We're kinda talking about two different things. I was talking about if they added diminishing returns, which wouldn't help a class like bard because they rely more on crowd control, and have two separate abilities that crowd control vs rdm cc sharing a cool down. Like if you tried to silence them on bard, but they resisted it, then you just effectively threw away your biggest win condition.

You're talking about removing cc from other jobs to make bard more unique. Imo this would remove depth from pvp and make it more like a PVE encounter where everyone just presses their buttons in order until everything dies. It's scripted instead of organic like pvp should be.

I think if purify and guard were a little snappier people wouldn't be so bothered by the amount of crowd control. That's probably not going to happen so the next best thing would be giving us more ACTIVE tools, instead of a passive dr on cc.

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With the netcode being the way that it is there is no way to make guard and purify more responsive though. That's the whole issue.

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Originally Posted by Karasio

With the netcode being the way that it is there is no way to make guard and purify more responsive though. That's the whole issue.

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another Purify would be a smart idea honestly, just give us two or three stacks of it.

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Originally Posted by Towa-Musa

another Purify would be a smart idea honestly, just give us two or three stacks of it.

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Just re-introduce the Feast-era tenacity system at this point. Literally better than the CC shitfest going on.

What do you mean? You don't like being CC'd 8 times for 2-3 seconds each in a game mode where 2 seconds is your entire life span? :)

I get the whole no CC means no deaths thing though. That's how pvp use to be. Very much a contest of which samurai could get three stickers first.

What if, while waiting in que for 24v24v24 if the time hit some known amount, it started an 8v8v8 instead with whomever was waiting longest?

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Originally Posted by Elfidan

I get the whole no CC means no deaths thing though.

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It was fine before the EW revamp though.
Now we have ultra-cc AND unkillable melee apes running around with 60% DR :)

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Originally Posted by Elfidan

What do you mean? You don't like being CC'd 8 times for 2-3 seconds each in a game mode where 2 seconds is your entire life span? :)

I get the whole no CC means no deaths thing though. That's how pvp use to be. Very much a contest of which samurai could get three stickers first.

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That was also back when healers had unlimited healing. That is very much not the case anymore so the ludicrous amounts of CC are unnecessary and just serve to frustrate and take agency away from players lmao

8v8v8 Frontlines has been a thing before, and honestly it's awful. The maps are way too big for 8v8v8 because success usually requires splitting up with multiple objectives active at the same time, and simply showing up 2v3 for an objective means one side is outnumbered by 33%. And because the maps are so big, if you travel all the way to an objective only to see something like 1v3 or 2v4 as an auto-loss, getting back to somewhere else where you'll be useful takes forever.

What XIV has needed for years is some kind of mid-scale PvP. WoW really nailed it offering modes ranging in all sorts of PvP scales ranging from Arenas as small as 2v2 and as big as 5v5, to mid scale with Warsong (10v10) and Arathi Basin (15v15), to large scale like AV (40v40).

XIV has small scale at 5v5 only, zero mid-scale options, and 72 man zerg fest. Rival Wings hasn't even existed in a long time. But XIV can never have anything resembling Arena until they fix their netcode, but it can absolutely garner participation and offer fun PvP experiences by offering medium-scale PvP maps that are much smaller in size with objectives that aren't an RNG casino. Since Grand Company queuing / loyalty has been eliminated they should just revamp it completely and get rid of these massive 3-team RNG zerg fest maps and give us fun 8v8 and 16v16 maps to compliment the 24v24 Rival Wings that everyone universally enjoys more than Frontlines but can't play because no one is incentivized to do so.

Tin-foil hat conspiracy logic would wonder if SE props up Frontlines as a bot-magnet for that juicy bot revenue, where actually good smaller-scale PvP maps would make botting in PvP much less desirable.

Edit: It also seems SE really really wants to avoid letting people group up and get in voice chat and win games with cooperation and strategy. Even in frontlines you can't group up with more than 8. They have some kind of PvP design philosophy of "PvP should be as RNG as possible so even the worst of the worst players can chance their way into wins". But honestly, queueing up for PvP to see a stacked team put you in the dirt and win the game in 5 minutes flat is a better experience than spending the full 20 minutes in a frontlines only to come in third place after winning most of the game simply because of how the objectives spawn.

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Originally Posted by LowIQ

It was fine before the EW revamp though.
Now we have ultra-cc AND unkillable melee apes running around with 60% DR :)

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Still waiting on these future tuning updates, I was promised. xD

I wouldn't mind 8v8v8 coming back, especially with this new system.

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Originally Posted by Towa-Musa

fetterward would be as bad as guard since you literally would have to predict the netcode lol

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Humble disagree, as Fetter Ward is used pre-emptively without having to forsake Guard's mitigation and lets you actually attack while having CC immunity running.

I think it would be rather healthy if it returned.

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Originally Posted by RydiaFey

Pretty sure rdm silence is 1sec vs bards 3, and rdm bind is 2sec vs bards 3

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https://i.imgur.com/zndfA01.png

Source: FFXIV Official Site, Red Mage PVP Job Guide

i'm say again drg need it's lb reword adn by reword i mean you can guard it it you can guard drg lb then you can guard all lbs

The chain stunning crap is, by far, the most mind-numbingly stupid thing they've ever put in PVP.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

The chain stunning crap is, by far, the most mind-numbingly stupid thing they've ever put in PVP.

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Yeeeah all the suggestions about a second stack of purify and fetter ward and whatnot wouldn't be necessary if like a vast majority of the roster just didn't have hard CC. Healing is still limited so the CC on top of that is just overkill.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

The chain stunning crap is, by far, the most mind-numbingly stupid thing they've ever put in PVP.

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No matter how "fair" or "balanced" some will argue such things are, it is a pretty indisputable fact that not being allowed to play your character for 10+ seconds isn't very fun.

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Originally Posted by Kansene

No matter how "fair" or "balanced" some will argue such things are, it is a pretty indisputable fact that not being allowed to play your character for 10+ seconds isn't very fun.

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Neither is the amount of DR that melee currently have, but here we are. Asking to have CC reduced really wouldn't be fair in FL until both issues are addressed.

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Originally Posted by Kansene

No matter how "fair" or "balanced" some will argue such things are, it is a pretty indisputable fact that not being allowed to play your character for 10+ seconds isn't very fun.

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Agreed, and the whole 'git gud' crowd need to stfu lol

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

Neither is the amount of DR that melee currently have, but here we are. Asking to have CC reduced really wouldn't be fair in FL until both issues are addressed.

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Damage reduction needs to also screw off for all classes.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Humble disagree, as Fetter Ward is used pre-emptively without having to forsake Guard's mitigation and lets you actually attack while having CC immunity running.

I think it would be rather healthy if it returned.

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Agreed! Fetter Ward would be a blessing because it rewards you for being situationally aware and trying to predict bursts.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

https://i.imgur.com/zndfA01.png

Source: FFXIV Official Site, Red Mage PVP Job Guide

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Good catch. I was replying to someone talking about Brd just being a weaker version of Rdm or something to that effect. I think Brd could use some tweaks to make it more fun personally, but Rdm cc is different, especially since it shares a cooldown vs Brd being seperate cooldowns.

Idk what do you think Reinhardt? What could they change to give it a little more oomph, without becoming totally op?

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Originally Posted by RydiaFey

Good catch. I was replying to someone talking about Brd just being a weaker version of Rdm or something to that effect. I think Brd could use some tweaks to make it more fun personally, but Rdm cc is different, especially since it shares a cooldown vs Brd being seperate cooldowns.

Idk what do you think Reinhardt? What could they change to give it a little more oomph, without becoming totally op?

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(I'm writing this understanding you ask my feedback on Bard, if I misinterpreted feel free to inform me)

For starters, I am not giving my input out of the blue, I actually talked with actual BRD players about it what they thought about the ideas I expressed.

1.) Things that are good and should be kept:

• Apex Arrow -> Blast Arrow for group buffs
• Warden's Paean defensive utility
• How Empyreal Arrow functions

2.) Things that could use some tweaks:

• More firepower / potency distributed in the kit or with reworked actions
• Stacks and/or alternate method to obtain Pitch Perfect (think Atonement from PLD)
• Silence reduction from 3s to 2s for streamlining of CC + balancing point to give more firepower

3.) Things that need actual reworking:

• Final Fantasia: Rework/Replacement
  replace it with: Saggitarius Arrow / Radiant Finale / Radiant Arrow (name tentative)
  Line AOE doing 12000-18000 dmg and buffing teammates inside the line AOE like Final Fantasia (and maybe in a small radius around the BRD player)

The goal here is essentially more firepower, yet keeping the supportive nature of BRD intact while balancing it against their fairly potent Silence. Other changes that could be considered is a slight adjustment in the range scaling for Powerful Shot / Pitch Perfect. This would result in less dependency on your team without striking your team value out of the court (i.e. being broken).

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

Neither is the amount of DR that melee currently have, but here we are. Asking to have CC reduced really wouldn't be fair in FL until both issues are addressed.

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Hard agree on this as well tbh. I thought I was just getting the wrong impression since I only played ranged/heals for the longest time, but when I actually tried mnk in FL it was like... dude. It's like going in there with training wheels, I have to actively try if I'm going to die unless I'm literally facing down the entire zerg alone and letting them pile all that CC on me.

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Originally Posted by Kansene

Hard agree on this as well tbh. I thought I was just getting the wrong impression since I only played ranged/heals for the longest time, but when I actually tried mnk in FL it was like... dude. It's like going in there with training wheels, I have to actively try if I'm going to die unless I'm literally facing down the entire zerg alone and letting them pile all that CC on me.

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yeah obviously remove the Damage reduction too, id much rather go back to when The Series pass was a was brand new thing and everybody was just as squishy as the next guy.