Interesting Detail About Grani

Spoilers for Shadowbringers and Endwalker below

I think one of the most interesting mounts in the game to me is Grani, which comes with the Collector's Edition of Shadowbringers. Looking at its appearance, it's a pretty cool-looking creature. It shows up on the cover artwork for Shadowbringers Collector's Edition which I think is neat. It takes the appearance of a skeletal horse with ornate barding and a large horn protruding out of its head. Its name is a reference to a horse from Norse mythology that was said to be the steed of the hero Sigurd.

What I find really intriguing about Grani is the small bit of in-game lore surrounding it and its implications. Grani doesn't play much of a role in the game's story and might initially seem to some to be an ordinary, albeit cool-looking, mount; however, when you actually look into the information the game gives on it, things become a lot more interesting.

Grani's mount description is "Possessed of a strength of both mind and body that is unmatched in the First, as a mount, Grani has no peer on land nor in the heavens. It is said, however, the noble creature will only accept a rider who has pledged to restore shadow to a land bereft of night." Pretty standard description, right? When taking into account the only time Grani actually appears in the game's story, this is when things become deeper than they initially seem.

During a scene in Endwalker taking place in Elpis, Emet-Selch can be seen riding Grani. Not only does this reveal that Grani existed prior to the Sundering, it also implies that Grani was originally Emet-Selch's familiar; but if Emet-Selch is Grani's master, then why is it that in the current era, it will only accept a rider dedicated to restoring night to the First? Emet-Selch's motive involves making sure the First has an imbalance of Light so that another Rejoining can occur.

I think that the natural implication here is that Grani ended up leaving Emet-Selch. The reason for which this might be is unknown, but judging from the fact that it will only accept a rider who actively works against Emet-Selch's plans, maybe it took some kind of moral objection to what he was doing? Is that even possible? I'm not totally sure, I just thought it was a neat possibility to think about. What does everyone else think?

With how prone XIV is to reusing models without attaching any context to it I feel disinclined to assume anything unless it's explicitly stated or hinted at in-game.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

With how prone XIV is to reusing models without attaching any context to it I feel disinclined to assume anything unless it's explicitly stated or hinted at in-game.

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In a lot of cases I'd agree (I do love the occasional bouts of reused-skeleton-spotting), but this one's weirdly specific. They very deliberately used Grani over any other mount in the game, the mount that was explicitly tied to 'his' expansion. And it's not even that it really fits him all that closely as far as visuals go in that cutscene; it's significantly more ornate and colorful than he is, it would've fit him better to have something like the megalotragus or black pegasus. I don't know exactly why they picked Grani, but I bet there was an actual reason.

What I'd want to see to really start figuring that out, though, is a more direct translation of the Japanese description. Not that I think the English translation is meaningless or anything, but it's been prone to getting a bit wild with mount and minion descriptions before, albeit mostly for jokes, so if you really want to build up Grani as important it'd be good to see what the original text was saying to be a bit more certain.

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Originally Posted by MediocreIndigo

I think that the natural implication here is that Grani ended up leaving Emet-Selch. The reason for which this might be is unknown, but judging from the fact that it will only accept a rider who actively works against Emet-Selch's plans, maybe it took some kind of moral objection to what he was doing? Is that even possible? I'm not totally sure, I just thought it was a neat possibility to think about. What does everyone else think?

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I'm disinclined to believe it's anything more than a reused asset until evidence to the contrary emerges. As the previous poster said, the developers have a habit of reusing models without any explanation whatsoever. Though, I suppose the use of Grani here could also very easily have been with purpose. Who knows?

But if we shelve that for a moment, were I to take Grani at face value, I would guess maybe it's less to do with a moral objection and more to do with following Emet-Selch's heart over his actions? He took no pleasure in the things he did. One could even go so far as to say his modern counterpart was a far cry from who he'd been when the WoL met him in Elpis. This being the case, could not a familiar (assuming of course it was one of the all-too-rare intelligent familiars) remain loyal to the person its master used to be? After all, we saw quite plainly in Elpis how strongly Hades reacted to his future self's activities.

Could also simply be that Emet-Selch's mount was just one of many. After all, creations deemed safe would be released into Etheirys to survive on their own. Given how many modern monsters clearly found their start in the time of the Ancients, it's not exactly a long leap of logic to figure Grani is simply a derivative therefrom

Oh, as a quick note: The name Grani has its origins in Norse mythology. It was the steed of the hero Sigurd, obtained through Odin's guidance. Grani is generally considered to be a descendant of Sleipnir. Not to imply there's any kind of in-game connection between Grani and Sleipnir, of course. In any case, SE has a tendency to just throw names such as these around largely randomly. Once in a while, however, they'll do so with purpose.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

With how prone XIV is to reusing models without attaching any context to it I feel disinclined to assume anything unless it's explicitly stated or hinted at in-game.

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That's definitely possible. I just thought that what I came up with was a fun little theory.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Could also simply be that Emet-Selch's mount was just one of many. After all, creations deemed safe would be released into Etheirys to survive on their own. Given how many modern monsters clearly found their start in the time of the Ancients, it's not exactly a long leap of logic to figure Grani is simply a derivative therefrom

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This could potentially be the case, but seeing as how Emet-Selch can use Grani to fly without transforming while Hythlodaeus and Hermes can't, I assumed that Grani was a familiar rather than a regular creation. From what I can tell, regular creations are akin to wild animals and are allowed to roam freely after approval, while familiars are more akin to pets in that they "belong" to a specific person.

It could just be as simple as as "what mount should Emet use? How about the dark and scary-looking mount from the Shadowbringers bonuses to give it more significance, since it never actually appears in the game? Cool, that works."

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

In a lot of cases I'd agree (I do love the occasional bouts of reused-skeleton-spotting), but this one's weirdly specific. They very deliberately used Grani over any other mount in the game, the mount that was explicitly tied to 'his' expansion. And it's not even that it really fits him all that closely as far as visuals go in that cutscene; it's significantly more ornate and colorful than he is, it would've fit him better to have something like the megalotragus or black pegasus. I don't know exactly why they picked Grani, but I bet there was an actual reason.

What I'd want to see to really start figuring that out, though, is a more direct translation of the Japanese description. Not that I think the English translation is meaningless or anything, but it's been prone to getting a bit wild with mount and minion descriptions before, albeit mostly for jokes, so if you really want to build up Grani as important it'd be good to see what the original text was saying to be a bit more certain.

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Funny, I recall Emet-Selch being significantly colorful in his Hades forme (a.k.a. his true self according to the Hermes transformation dialogue/explanation we bore witness to in Elpis) so I'd argue Grani fits his chosen color palette perfectly. A minor nitpick, to be sure but I personally felt it bore stating.

You're probably right, I just think the lore implications that come with taking it at face value are interesting.

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Originally Posted by MediocreIndigo

I think that the natural implication here is that

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Emet-Selch wanted WoL to win and restore the night, which is why Endwalker paired him with Grani to reinforce that idea.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

Emet-Selch wanted WoL to win and restore the night, which is why Endwalker paired him with Grani to reinforce that idea.

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He did? Where does it say that he wanted that?

It could be that Grani is in fact Emet’s mount/familiar and we are given it because Shadowbringers is essentially “his” expansion. Or it could be that they just decided since it was in “his” expansion, why not use it in Endwalker. Chicken or the Egg kinda.

In addition, the WoL don’t necessarily have Grani in canon, and any lore regarding Grani in our mount description needed more than “thx for buying the collectors edition!”

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Originally Posted by MediocreIndigo

He did? Where does it say that he wanted that?

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It doesn't, because he didn't.

It wasn't that Emet wanted us to succeed so much as he was curious to see if we could. According to a Yoshi-P interview that was referenced here recently (I forget which thread specifically) it was at least in part to see if we were really who he thought we were--and that he didn't really have a plan if we were--but that can't have been true the whole time, and his talk with the Exarch in the Crystal Tower confirms that he was motivated at least as much by curiosity of just how all of this was possible.

After all, if you found out a group's taking a shot at something you thought was completely impossible, even if you don't actually want them to do the thing, you're gonna watch them try, right?

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Originally Posted by MediocreIndigo

He did? Where does it say that he wanted that?

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https://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1srq41a

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Since the WoL is indeed a fragmented body of souls, if the event where they can control all the Light they've absorbed, then there will be a need to reevaluate the current mankind.... And that's his way of thinking. He also had seen the process of their journey in person. To join hands with others, to go on and resolve problems, amongst this he thought that maybe the solution to everything might be in there. And especially, the very fact that the WoL's soul resembled someone he knew all too well, and in a way, loved, even.... And yet! And so, that is how he became disappointed from the very bottom of his heart. These are Emet-Selch's true feelings.

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But, I would like to bring your attention to Y'shtola's lines after clearing the Hades trial. She mentioned how tattered the WoL's aether was from the rampaging Light that it was as though, the Darkness had completely eliminated it all.

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As a result, perhaps the Light and Dark residing inside of WoL had reached an equilibrium? Meaning Emet-Selch had reached a certain conclusion..... So, I'd like you to take another look at those scenes, and perhaps you may reach a different interpretation.

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Then you have Elpis, where Emet-Selch simply can't understand why he would bring WoL down into a recreated Amaurot and essentially invite his own demise and the ruination of his millennia-long plans. Lampshading this hints at the fact that this exact outcome was what he was trying to push WoL towards all along, as suggested when he first lays eyes on WoL in Lakeland and recognizes their soul.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

It doesn't, because he didn't.

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I'm pretty sure I've posted this and explained it multiple times, so you should remember what I'm referencing.

Found it: I was actually remembering a more accurate and complete translation of the same interview Veloran was pointing to. I mostly have Veloran blacklisted, so I knew it couldn't have been from him; who'd have guessed, I actually got it from the actual thread about exactly that moment. It's rather a lot less certain than Veloran's putting forward; the fact Yoshi-P doesn't ever say that Emet actually wanted us to succeed, but does say he was disappointed when we didn't, suggests to me that it wasn't a disappointment rooted in investment in success, but more disappointment rooted in curiosity.

I'd compare it to watching someone get close to a world record, or some other sporting feat; I'm not disappointed because I actually had investment in the result or would've changed my mind if I saw it, I'm more just disappointed because I thought I might see something I didn't think was possible. That also goes along with the fact he doesn't have any ideas for what to do after a theoretical success (which is a part Veloran's quote didn't bring in): I don't know about anyone else, but if I'm watching something happen and actually hoping for an unlikely success, I ussually have a few follow-up steps thought up.


I'd also point out a crucial piece of evidence here: he shot G'raha right as he was about to genuinely succeed through a direction Emet didn't consider at all before then. That kinda shows that he wasn't actually watching for 'success by cleansing the First', or else he would've just let G'raha do it. He was watching to see if we could contain the light, and whether or not the First would be solved by this is entirely ancillary.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Found it: I was actually remembering a more accurate and complete translation

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Funny that you'd call it "more accurate" when the very thread you linked alongside it has people pointing out how parts of it are actually less accurate, e.g translating "true human" as "Unsundered" even though these aren't really equivalent ideas. Being more grammatically correct in English doesn't equal being more accurate to what's being said in Japanese.

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suggests to me that it wasn't a disappointment rooted in investment in success, but more disappointment rooted in curiosity.

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It was a disappointment rooted in hope. You can see this referenced in Through His Eyes.

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Yet in spite of himself, when he cradled the newborn in his arms and stroked that downy hair, he could not help but hope. For what, he could not be certain, but he hoped nonetheless.

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This ties back to his dialog at the Crown of the Immaculate.

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I placed my faith in you. Let myself believe that you could contain the Light.

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In both cases he was holding on to hope, in Shadowbringers that being WoL living up to Azem and doing something that he thinks Azem, no matter how sundered they were, should have easily been able to do.

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he felt it should be easy to contain the light emitted by the Lightwardens regardless of how fragmented the soul is.
By the end, Emet-Selch thought, “You are not Azem, nor someone similar to Azem… in the end, you were nothing but a failure”.

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This all leads back to how he wanted WoL to live up to the Ancient's, and Azem's, legacy.
https://i.imgur.com/gLO5TIY.png
Remember, the Scions never bring this up, it's Emet-Selch who does. For him this is what containing the Light or saving the First is about. This is why he sabotages G'raha's solution, because allowing someone else to bear the burden in order to save their own life is something that Azem rejected to such a degree that they left the Convocation over just that issue. If WoL had just accepted this and lived off the back of G'raha's sacrifice, they wouldn't be Azem.

Then we get to Amaurot. His actions there, and afterwards, really can't be squared with the idea that he was setting up WoL to fail - Just the opposite really, he was setting up WoL to succeed. First he invites WoL to the Tempest, when simply not telling them where he was going would have ensured his victory. This is directly pointed out by Emet in Elips as being a move that can't really be understood at all from the position of thinking that he wanted to win. He then recreates phantom Amaurot, essentially for the purposes of showing it to WoL and explaining their history. The "unnecessary flourishes" he references in his talk with the Scions is almost certainly the existence of the shade of Hythlodaeus and the plan to deliver WoL the Azem crystal after his own death, an outcome that he's hoping for but doesn't think has a chance of actually happening. Of course, he then stays in Amaurot and meets WoL in battle, despite having no real reason to do so other than offering the chance for WoL to defeat him. He even mends WoL's soul by balancing their aether with darkness during the battle, and then still doesn't flee even after freeing himself from the auracite, things he again has no reason to do if he isn't hoping for WoL's victory. And after being defeated he stays dead, despite having the ability to return from the aetherial sea, even going so far as to help WoL defeat Elidibus, because he now believes WoL lives up to Azem.

And all of this is preceded by his scene in Lakeland, where he says, alone and to himself:

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Then again... with a soul such as that... Mayhap there is another way. One which does not require bloodshed.

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As far as I can tell, the only opposition argument to all of this is that it's just meaningless. Emet-Selch was simply an irrational actor and all of these actions that don't make sense or contradict his obvious goals are just nonsense or elements to move the plot along. When another version of himself can't rationalize his own actions it's simply there to point out that he was crazy. When he's paired up with Grani, it's just ShB fanservice. When he creates Hythlodaeus to give WoL the Azem crystal, it was just a mistake. When he says all these things about letting himself believe in WoL he was only talking about believing he'd be able to hold the Light long enough to blow up with it or betray everything Azem ever believed in order to join the Ascians. And frankly I just don't buy those arguments.

The Ascians invested a lot in order to try to rejoin the First. As Mitron explains, when the Ascians brought about the Flood of Darkness on the Thirteenth, the First was the world most affected by the shift, bringing it precariously close to the brink of a Light-aspected rejoining. Given that the Flood of Darkness preceded all of the rejoinings that we've had to date, you could say that it's the one world that they tried to rejoin for the longest - and failed at it. Given that Emet literally discards Mitron after he gets transformed to Eden just to keep his plan on track, you can imagine how very little investment he actually has in a rejoined Azem somehow proving humanity's worth to him. And even after he witnesses us passing his test in front of his own eyes, he still continues on the same course. It's not like he congratulates us on not transforming and offers us to join his side.

You can claim that on some level he wanted someone to finally put a stop to him and for his endless battles to end, but he's no less of a monster for the atrocities that he wrought.