Exp in Frontlines

Please SE, remove Exp from Frontlines.
The Players who likes to play Frontlines and wants to win ... gets no chance cause half of the Players in every Team are there only there for Exp.
Those Players have already a full Duty with Raids, Trial, Main Scenario, Dungeons ... and no matter what they leech their Way through Frontline to Level their Jobs. I see only 3 Ways to change this behavior.

- Remove Exp completly
- Only the Winner Team gets exp
- Only those who made a lot Damage gets exp

There is not a single Frontline, without 1-4 afk Players, sitting save around in the Base or someone far away from the Fights and waiting for their Exp, Marks, Rewards and so on. This has to be changed. Even a Report Button for those afk Players would be okay. A Player who gets reported afk in Frontlines, has 60 seconds to do damage, if not then that Player gets removed and a 6-24 hour penality.

There are already penalties and a system in place to report:

1- You can already report players that you *suspect* are AFK ( i say suspect because it's up to the GM to decide)
2- Removing exp would likely remove a good chunk of players and thus result in much longer queues
3- Players are already penalized by getting less EXP if they do not win

You realize that you can kick someone from FL? it depends upon when you want to do it, but that is also an option. I have seen a kick go through. I find your option of an easy to access Report for AFK PLUS a 6-24 hour penalty unduly harsh. You could be doing anything from travelling, then guarding, and whoops - maybe travelling - (depending on the map or your job, maybe you're new ) - out you go with a nice big penalty.

Edited- what would you even consider to be "a lot" of damage? Should damage be the only criterion? What about heals?

I feel like this could be abused lmao. Imagine someone who's not very good but still doing their job, they just don't know how to deal damage well. You could report them and give them 60 seconds to meet an arbitrary benchmark and then bam, booted. Because they're not the best at frontlines.

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

There are already penalties and a system in place to report:

1- You can already report players that you *suspect* are AFK ( i say suspect because it's up to the GM to decide)
2- Removing exp would likely remove a good chunk of players and thus result in much longer queues
3- Players are already penalized by getting less EXP if they do not win

You realize that you can kick someone from FL? it depends upon when you want to do it, but that is also an option. I have seen a kick go through. I find your option of an easy to access Report for AFK PLUS a 6-24 hour penalty unduly harsh. You could be doing anything from travelling, then guarding, and whoops - maybe travelling - (depending on the map or your job, maybe you're new ) - out you go with a nice big penalty.

Edited- what would you even consider to be "a lot" of damage? Should damage be the only criterion? What about heals?

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I feel like most of the people in it for the exp are doing the daily.

This would lead to 5 hour ques.

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Originally Posted by Necrotica

This would lead to 5 hour ques.

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Who cares if its more time in queue, frontline roulette should not exist if you ever care about bg being serious.

I would rather have more people queue in that want to win you know, not troll people with bla bla bla im just here for xp stop being toxic just farm more damage and dont do objectives like me

Also xp in pvp is miniscule. Just remove it completly from every mode. You want to pvp as specific class? You only need lvl 30 not giga slow 90 grind.

Use Vote Kick or report them.

OP apparently didn't play back before exp was added to frontlines...Ya know, back in the day when the frontlines queue was an hour long and no one played it lol (sometimes the queue wouldn't pop at all for days, basically what rival wings deals with right now).

The exp reward is fine. 2 or 3 people afking in a corner is not a big deal in a chaotic game mode with 72 players. Them being "active" isn't going to change the outcome of the match. If you wanna win that badly for your dumb achievements then make a premade group.

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Originally Posted by Stasya

Who cares if its more time in queue, frontline roulette should not exist if you ever care about bg being serious.

I would rather have more people queue in that want to win you know, not troll people with bla bla bla im just here for xp stop being toxic just farm more damage and dont do objectives like me

Also xp in pvp is miniscule. Just remove it completly from every mode. You want to pvp as specific class? You only need lvl 30 not giga slow 90 grind.

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Your first mistake was acting like frontlines should be taken seriously. Its the casual pvp mode and its always been intended to be as such. You can't take a zerg mode with 72 players seriously. And how is the exp miniscule? The roulette is like half a level lol.

It's gonna be dead like Hidden Gorge if you remove exp reward
Do you think people enjoy frontline? Frontline is literal GARBAGE
It is literally THE WORST mode in this game
It's like 90% RNG and 10% skill

People like me are just collecting mounts (30 more wins for me to get the 200-win mount and I'm never setting foot in it again)

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Originally Posted by tsuchii

It's gonna be dead like Hidden Gorge if you remove exp reward
Do you think people enjoy frontline? Frontline is literal GARBAGE
It is literally THE WORST mode in this game
It's like 90% RNG and 10% skill

People like me are just collecting mounts (30 more wins for me to get the 200-win mount and I'm never setting foot in it again)

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We used to get scaled down 8v8v8 frontline matches because there was never enough people for 72 players. At that point the mode was very tolerable and people actually *gasp* pvp'd, but ya the 72 player crap is just a mess and has never been enjoyable because its not really pvp.

As much as I love Frontline, the fact is, it's a casual mode designed for casual players. With 24 players per team, there's a massive diffusion of responsibility that has pros (each person needs less individual skill) and cons (some will think their participation isn't necessary), not unlike alliance raids. On top of that, you also have sore losers and early quitters who will pout, protest, and otherwise do nothing if their team isn't winning; they don't have the integrity to try their best, whether they are winning or losing.

Removing rewards will drive away the target audience and essentially kill the mode. Furthermore, it doesn't solve the problem of sore losers and early quitters. Shrinking down the team sizes and lowering the diffusion or responsibility will also not help based on what I've seen in FFXIV's 4-man content, Crystalline, the Feast, and other PVP games that are as low as 3v3. GMs should be more active patrolling PVP modes and dealing with people who are not playing in the spirit of the mode, but if we're being honest, they have so many issues (some of their own making) that this is a low priority.

If you're wanting something more serious, I suggest participating in Frontline queue syncs. Otherwise, queuing with friends or people in party finder can allow for some strategy despite what everyone else is doing.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

We used to get scaled down 8v8v8 frontline matches because there was never enough people for 72 players. At that point the mode was very tolerable and people actually *gasp* pvp'd, but ya the 72 player crap is just a mess and has never been enjoyable because its not really pvp.

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That seems more fair TBH. I wonder how they came up with this 24x24x24 clusterfork. Frontline is more like PVA, Player Versus Area. There's no worse example than freaking stupid Seal Rock. It's not a match where you still feel nice even if you lost. Because losing is never fair because of the rng nature of the "objectives".

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Originally Posted by Ransu

We used to get scaled down 8v8v8 frontline matches because there was never enough people for 72 players. At that point the mode was very tolerable and people actually *gasp* pvp'd, but ya the 72 player crap is just a mess and has never been enjoyable because its not really pvp.

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holy crap, we both agree on something for once.

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Originally Posted by tsuchii

That seems more fair TBH. I wonder how they came up with this 24x24x24 clusterfork. Frontline is more like PVA, Player Versus Area. There's no worse example than freaking stupid Seal Rock. It's not a match where you still feel nice even if you lost. Because losing is never fair because of the rng nature of the "objectives".

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to be fair, im convinced that they have nobody that knows how to MAKE a pvp mode since they keep mucking it up.

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Originally Posted by Towa-Musa

to be fair, im convinced that they have nobody that knows how to MAKE a pvp mode since they keep mucking it up.

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You can't have a perfect game. 14 has to mess up somewhere.

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Originally Posted by tsuchii

You can't have a perfect game. 14 has to mess up somewhere.

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This much is true, They **** The bed on this one lol

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Originally Posted by Karasio

I feel like most of the people in it for the exp are doing the daily.

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OK, and your point being?

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Originally Posted by Ransu

OP apparently didn't play back before exp was added to frontlines...Ya know, back in the day when the frontlines queue was an hour long and no one played it lol (sometimes the queue wouldn't pop at all for days, basically what rival wings deals with right now).

The exp reward is fine. 2 or 3 people afking in a corner is not a big deal in a chaotic game mode with 72 players. Them being "active" isn't going to change the outcome of the match. If you wanna win that badly for your dumb achievements then make a premade group.



Your first mistake was acting like frontlines should be taken seriously. Its the casual pvp mode and its always been intended to be as such. You can't take a zerg mode with 72 players seriously. And how is the exp miniscule? The roulette is like half a level lol.

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Absolutely, even if just a couple of people are in a premade, that's an advantage, not to mention that is more fun for those people.

However, I see that FL is not as "serious" as a PVP mode that is full on pre-made vs pre-made, where I can choose who is in the alliance, and where there is a possibility of a a ranking system. That means that I don't expect a certain level of performance, knowledge and cooperation. I expect to get some people who may be new to the mode, or new at PVP, or not very good or interested in PVP.

It being "casual" does not absolve people from participating. So no, I am not at all fine with people leeching.

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Originally Posted by tsuchii

That seems more fair TBH. I wonder how they came up with this 24x24x24 clusterfork. Frontline is more like PVA, Player Versus Area. There's no worse example than freaking stupid Seal Rock. It's not a match where you still feel nice even if you lost. Because losing is never fair because of the rng nature of the "objectives".

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Frontlines came about early in ARR's life cycle if I recall correctly. It was either right before or right after heavensward. I can't remember completely, but given that when they were working on ARR Yoshi-P required his team to play and get reference from other theme park MMO's (most notably WoW at the time) its safe to say they looked at battlegroungs and decided to make frontlines largescale to coincide with the 3 factions lore of training at the castrum or whatever. Later down the road they introduced the feast which was supposed to be their arena pvp for people that didn't like large scale pvp. Shame the queue was constantly dead.

Personally I would love to have 8v8v8 back. Those frontline matches were a ton of fun and didn't feel chaotic at all.

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Originally Posted by tsuchii

That seems more fair TBH. I wonder how they came up with this 24x24x24 clusterfork. Frontline is more like PVA, Player Versus Area. There's no worse example than freaking stupid Seal Rock. It's not a match where you still feel nice even if you lost. Because losing is never fair because of the rng nature of the "objectives".

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You have two other modes if you don't like mass pvp. You now even have the critically acclaimed Crystalline Conflict for all your REAL pvp needs.
Though you might not like it either because technically it has the same issue of "losing is never fair because of the rng nature of the "o̶b̶j̶e̶c̶t̶i̶v̶e̶s̶ teams""

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Originally Posted by LowIQ

You have two other modes if you don't like mass pvp. You now even have the critically acclaimed Crystalline Conflict for all your REAL pvp needs.
Though you might not like it either because technically it has the same issue of "losing is never fair because of the rng nature of the "o̶b̶j̶e̶c̶t̶i̶v̶e̶s̶ teams""

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Except no one plays rival wings because its not in the roulette even though its objectively better than frontlines in every way.

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Originally Posted by Sunhwapark

Use Vote Kick or report them.

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Kicking afk's/base-sitters in frontlines. I genuinely don't mean to sound condescending, but that's a cute idea. Shame it never actually happens.

If you do 10+ Frontlines a Day and you kick 1 afk Player, you get a 4 hour Penality and can't kick anymore Players.

Stop talking about vote kick or report.
Vote kick can only be done after 5 mins, and generally fail.
The GM don't care about reports for leeches in frontline, and we can't blame them : both the players and GM have better shit to do than reporting and investigating leeches. The only true solution is better design.

Frontline needs some small performance requirement to earn the reward, to discourage leeches and griefers. The designers know the skills, they know how frontlines play out, and they probably have some statistics about how players do, so they can do their designer job and have an opinion about an acceptable minimum performance.

Frontlines will not change because on the JP side of things, it doesn't need to change because games are fine and their games are all that matters in the eyes of SE.

JP Players don't need to be told in Alliance chat several times that they need to stick together, attack the team in 1st place, head to objectives and not position themselves between two teams. They have commanders still doing callouts, but the players very much understand those basic principles. I don't think I've seen AFK players there either.

Now, we can argue why games are so different in other regions. Maybe it's because the player base is not smart enough to understand the mode. Maybe they just don't care about anything other than their XP. Maybe a mix of both. Could be a culture thing that JP players never want to be a burden to their team, which is not an issue that NA players have for instance. But there are a lot of people not trying and basic strategies are not being used in most of the games. I don't see that changing anytime soon to be honest.

Your best bet is to find 3 other friends who know what they are doing. I never play Frontlines alone. You can make somewhat of an impact by yourself, but it's much better to play with other people if you are trying to win.

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Originally Posted by GordonGeeko

Frontlines will not change because on the JP side of things, it doesn't need to change because games are fine and their games are all that matters in the eyes of SE.

JP Players don't need to be told in Alliance chat several times that they need to stick together, attack the team in 1st place, head to objectives and not position themselves between two teams. They have commanders still doing callouts, but the players very much understand those basic principles. I don't think I've seen AFK players there either.

Now, we can argue why games are so different in other regions. Maybe it's because the player base is not smart enough to understand the mode. Maybe they just don't care about anything other than their XP. Maybe a mix of both. Could be a culture thing that JP players never want to be a burden to their team, which is not an issue that NA players have for instance. But there are a lot of people not trying and basic strategies are not being used in most of the games. I don't see that changing anytime soon to be honest.

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https://i.imgflip.com/5awfid.gif

Pretty much the ugly truth. Apathetic NA players outnumber those who actually try (and not just say they do while auto-running into enemy clusters) and those with common sense by 2:1. That's why almost always one team will be in distant last when majority of their players can't figure out why they keep getting slaughtered or picked off one at a time while being baited by a PLD or DRK's limit break for a painful 10 whole seconds. And then when they lose, they blame RNG while 3-quarters of their team don't even have battle high.

How can you vote kick someone for guarding a valid objective?

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Originally Posted by Necrotica

How can you vote kick someone for guarding a valid objective?

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because defending against backcappers is frown upon even though you're just one person among 24 (which is dumb)

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Originally Posted by Necrotica

How can you vote kick someone for guarding a valid objective?

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It's happened to me before. Even though I had been following the Zerg for a fair portion of the match, people weren't protecting our base flag so I went back, patrolled around it for a while, and got kicked. I can see how people would think I was AFK or were just upset that I wasn't "contributing" when I was playing for/defending an objective so I wasn't too mad about it. That doesn't stop me from playing for objectives though; I want to win after all.