Anyone else annoyed with the whole Meteion arc of quests?
If being strictly pragmatic, would decapitating Meteion and Hermes on sight in Elpis prevent the Final Days from triggering and get it over with?
I know I'm supposed to care about them but around the 7th time she ran off in a row I kinda just gave up. I just wanna rip them open and go back to Eorzia to tend my farm and play the casino.
MSQ question
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09-30-2022, 08:32 AMRhaggnosMSQ question
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09-30-2022, 08:39 AMRongway
Please use more focused thread titles, especially when spoilers are involved.
Example: [spoilers] Opinion of EW MSQ/characters? -
09-30-2022, 08:43 AMSannaR
You can't unlock your farm at that point in the story and when doing that part for the 1st time you don't know how the final days are caused or why. So, no I guess?
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09-30-2022, 08:48 AMIscah
The Sundering has happened in our past and led to everything we are.
From our sole example of "changing" a timeline, G'raha's original timeline still exists (as indicated in the side story "An Unpromised Future") despite him changing events so it cannot happen in this one.
Therefore, even if we could stop him, the best we could achieve is a second timeline in addition to the one where those things must happen because they already did. And even then, there's no guarantee that the second path of events would be any better. Just different. -
09-30-2022, 09:56 AMRhaggnosQuote:
Originally Posted by Rongway
Is there a way to edit the title? -
09-30-2022, 10:00 AMRhaggnosTrue. I guess I'm just frustrated at how the story is both needlessly convoluted and painfully predictable, while filled to the brim with filler fetch questing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iscah
I very much enjoyed Shadowbringers, but since the whole Garlean debacle I can't say I much care for Endwalker so far.
Add to that the fact that our silent protagonist just stands there 5m away as people get murdered in Not-India... it's entirely too frustrating how cliché and contrived the story has been so far ^^ -
09-30-2022, 10:12 AMJeeqbitThe problem was that if you changed events by doing that, then events you do want to happen might not happen. You probably wouldn't be the Warrior of Light, so what bad things might have happened if you weren't? It's difficult to know so it's better to stick with what you do know. Unfortunately you almost did change events that much but got lucky.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhaggnos
They are arguably more powerful than you as well, considering you are using borrowed aether to sustain a being of their size. They call you a familiar because they actually think they can get rid of you like that.
Now if you did attack them you might unleash a trial the size of which we see when we fight them later on, except they would have a lot of help. All the people in Elpis would be against you.
Not to mention, Meteion disappears. If you were to attack them, they would reappear, completely fixed. They have an ability to transform into other shapes.
Hermes would not be stopped easily because he is an Ascian and you are (almost) a familiar. -
09-30-2022, 11:15 AMRhaggnosTechnicalities aside, you do hold your own against Venat, who seems to be able to 1v20 them in the cinematic later on. Also I doubt Hermes has any sort of superhuman reflexes, and nobody is stronger than a blade in the back if they don't have time to put up barriers etc, I reckon. They're strong wizards, not Kryptonians.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeeqbit
But yeah, you can see the "I summoned doom from space out of curiosity" coming from a mile away. Also what's Zenos' deal? He seems completely unaffected by the world's end. The poor creatures are trapped on that planet with him xD -
09-30-2022, 12:02 PMIscah
The other thing to keep in mind is that our primary goal in travelling to the past was to witness what did happen there so we could fix it in the present. If we had changed it to be something else (and if we had the knowledge of what to change in the first place) then we would no longer be seeing the events that led to our present, and the knowledge would not be useful to us.
Alternately, if we did go back in the time with the mentality that "Hermes will cause all our present-day problems, so we should kill Hermes in the past to fix it", it would probably have to turn out that Hermes wasn't the problem after all and actually when Elidibus sent us to talk to him, he was unaware of the fact that shortly before the Final Days, Hermes was murdered by a mysterious assailant and someone else was elected to his position, and that person ended up being the one we were dealing with in the present day. -
09-30-2022, 05:45 PMSaraide
It is doubtful that it would change anything relating to the first final days as by the time you get there, hermes had already sent out all the sisters. They had already found every dead planet. Even if you could have stopped the final days from ever starting, it would not have mattered for the timeline you came from. You would have just created an alternative timeline. Additionally, non of the other ancients would have allowed you to kill hermes. Doing that would also have doomed that timeline as his knowledge over the celestial currents allowed the ancients to shroud the planet with the help of zodiark.
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09-30-2022, 05:57 PMJeeqbitThe point is that having a long battle with them is not the same as going in as a ninja and attacking them from behind. Even if you beat them, the story doesn't make you really beat people a lot of the time and goes to a cutscene instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhaggnos
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09-30-2022, 05:59 PMKaurhz
Something like -- "The future to which you must return, must exist as a result of the Final Days"
Besides, as has been highlighted the sisters or network had already been scattered, so more than likely too late by then, and the exact course of events wouldn't really have been known to us.
That being said, I found the story very predictable, personally. But I 'disconnected' myself from the predictability of it all, and just enjoyed the story for what it was. Taking the predictability away from it all made the lopporitz a very alluring prospect, had it been an avenue they remained towards. -
09-30-2022, 07:02 PMCKNovelYes I'm annoyed by all of Elpis but for different reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhaggnos
No it wouldn't prevent anything. Meteion is a network of birds in the cosmos.
It's as smart as smashing an axe on a computer to kill TikTok.
On top of that, "our" Meteion has been our only access to the Nest and the Endsinger.
Because we didn't axed our Meteion computer we could manage to hack TikTok to delete it from the inside.
Additionally, Meteion is helping restoring the lost stars.
I know you really crave for violent ending, but a main character that solves everything through violence and sheer force is truly boring. -
09-30-2022, 08:05 PMRavorI just wish they specifically chaange this event a little, make it that we are being blocked by 3 or 4 other monster or even 1 other monster which make it seems like we are too busy or being blocked to go for the rescue......Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhaggnos
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09-30-2022, 08:21 PMEelanosI do find the simple mindedness of some people fascinating. Just imagine going to the past and just stabbing someone that has yet to commit any evil. I really doubt people would give you a pat in the back or consider it a heroic action. You are definitely going to get caught and treated like a common murderer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhaggnos
Now add to that the fact that they're not just humans but an ancient race of reality-bending magic people, and that the world you're currently visiting is full of them. How many do you think you'll be able to stab before you're dematerialized out of existence? Ten? Twenty?
And now let's ignore the whole thing with Meteon's sisters and time paradox nonsense and pretend you did kill the right people and fix the future. Hooray! Congrats! But, as I said, you're dead. A noble sacrifice, somewhat unpredictable, though an atrocious and anticlimatic ending. Now, what's on the next expansion? Should players make a new character from scratch?
Or are you telling me you feel the story makes much more sense if you're able to go in, kill everyone in sight with ease, giving no reason or explanation as to why, and then leave pushing your sunglasses up while giving a side glance at the camera before traveling back to the current time? Because that's the storytelling of a 10 year old trying really hard to be cool, consequences be damned.
Truth is, part of the predictability of the story is because the writers are limited on what they can write. We know we can't die, but the reason why we don't die and still find the happy ending should feel plausible.
We can't just tackle every new issue guns blazing and Deus Ex Machina the crap out of every villain or catastrophe, even if we technically could because our character has several tons of plot armor for the sole reason of being the main character in a MMO.
Plus, also part of the predictability is because they don't cheat the world's rules.
Most of what happens in the game is set up well before it happens. We can't complain that we knew who the EW final boss was just because it was hinted at in ARR and by the 75% mark in EW it was very clearly telling us who it was. If they were to make a last second switcheroo it would have felt worse, not better.
All in all, making a power fantasy story is easy. Balancing a power fantasy with good storytelling is much more difficult, and I think the team is doing a competent work at it. We can like the story more or we can like it less, but I think the story makes sense and was enjoyable, so I can't say I have major complains about it (except for a couple of choices in the script, but that's an entirely different conversation). -
10-02-2022, 01:52 AMRhaggnosJustify it as you may, there are too many artifices shoe-horned in tbh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eelanos
For instance, Emet-Selch saw the convergence immediately, and even mentions that when MC and Hyathlo walk to the fake one. Yet instead of cutting short Hermes' interminable speech, snapping his fingers and jumping out, he simply allows himself to be memory-wiped.
Too many forced instances of "oh no, artificial problem" caused by gawking inaction.
Another one: as soon as you realize the emotions connection, and see that Meteion's report WILL break his mind, have 2 ppl constrain or distract Hermes instead of allowing the weak, traumatized nutcase to join you in receiving his fix of predictable PTSD. Then deal with how you will inform him and give him back his pet later.
It's less about the power fantasy and more about practicality. Time travel can never be done well, btw, because there are no ground rules. Are we dealing with multiple timelines? Can they split? Will they converge (as Hydaelin mentions later)? If events are unafected by it, how come they mention having seen you in the future, implying you were present in the original events that made you go back to begin with?
I don't take much issue with the storytelling itself, just the way they force events in nonsensical interactions sometimes.
Hell, I'd be fine with having Thancred backstab someone and deal with it. Not about power fantasy, more about don't waste my time.
And to be fair, most of my frustration is due to the endless running around nature of the quests. Every single one just moves the goal off a little 4 or 5 times before you have any meaningful interaction or can turn them in, and most dont have the decency to offer any combat in between. I feel like a trans-dimensional mail man... -
10-02-2022, 02:10 AMKes13asorry to burst your bubble.. but have you REALLY thought this through?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhaggnos
lets say we do your little trick of just preventing the wipe and everything from happening.
where is the justification for your existence? there is none. at all. the ancients would fix their issue, or not, but it is highly improbable at that point that a "warrior of light" would ever be created or needed.
I can see it now... partway through endwalker, SE Yoshi and the team, put up a screen saying.. "thanks for playing Final Fantasy 14, but the world you were in and helped created is gone. have a great day, see you in the future..." -
10-02-2022, 02:12 AMAtelier-Bagur"But the future to refused to change"Quote:
Originally Posted by Kes13a
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10-02-2022, 02:15 AMRhaggnosYeah. I'm sitting there like "Sure, it's not like can instantly summon a miniature Primal Bahamut and snap that insignificant beast like twig or anything. Or merge with the voidsent and cleave it in half like Zenos. Or Fire IV it from Egypt." etc...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravor
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10-02-2022, 03:40 AMPawPawI have to admit, I spent a long time laughing about this one. He breaks open the convergence and instead of snapping his magic horse into existence, grabbing Hythlo and exiting promptly; he decides it would be a better use of his time to give us a rousing parting speech complete with a sad smile and a wistfully waving Hyth. All while just watching us ride our sparkly puppies across the entire arena over to the convergence. These are people who can teleport as easily as they breathe. But no, it definitely made much more sense for them to just stand there like idiots and let their memories get wiped. There was absolutely no way they could have escaped that. No chance. /eyerollQuote:
Originally Posted by Rhaggnos
The memory wiping contrivance was...silly, but at the least give me a believable reason as to why these two wouldn't have booked it out of there with us instead of just standing around like powerless fools. -
10-02-2022, 05:09 AMSannaR
If the saw you there thing is what Elidibus says. That's not about what happens in the MSQ, but a hint to the 8 man raid post MSQ. Emet doesn't see the confluence right away. As he says it was never anywhere until where it is the instant he makes it visible. Heck they even tell you they're staying to help distract Hermes. Those two even somewhat agree with his dumb test. We don't know how fast Emet's horse is capable of traveling vs what little time anyone had left to escape. Meteion's sister were already traveling to their assigned planets by the time we arrived in Elpis. So we would have needed to jump back further in time to stop them from leaving the planet. They still would have wound up becoming the final boss of 6.0.
Stopping Hermes is akin to those alternative history fiction books that take a look at what might have happened if JFK hadn't gotten assassinated. Just because one good thing ends up happening doesn't mean everything else ends up all sunshine and rainbows. -
10-02-2022, 07:25 AMPawPaw
Still an incredibly contrived scenario. Distracting Hermes? From doing what, exactly? He can't beat anyone with Emet, Venat or ourselves present so what was he going to do in that time that they needed to stand there for? And it really doesn't matter about the semantics of "how fast is Emet's horse?" when they can literally teleport anywhere in the blink of an eye and do so earlier in the dungeon. It was just one of many illogical moments meant to wring some emotion from the audience. Let's say goodbye to Emet-Selch and his sad smile one more time (for now) but here, we'll have you reach out longingly for him as well. Isn't this heartbreaking???!1
The entire Elpis portion of the story was clumsy and poorly conceived. Nothing to be done now, but I do hope they try to write a better story in the future. -
10-02-2022, 08:16 AMIscahConsider that we have described the future to him. Assuming he believes us despite his outward denial, he has learned that (1) he will act in ways that don't make sense with the knowledge he has gained today and (2) the only long-term way to save the world is to ensure that you get back to your own time with the information you've learned here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhaggnos
Perhaps there's a degree of resignation in there, recognising it to be in line with his foretold fate that he must lose this memory.
We also don't know enough about convergences and how stable they are. Maybe it was only big enough for one or two people and they couldn't hope to have everyone else get through, so it's a matter of deciding who is most important to escape – which logically would be us, for whom the future is still a blank slate and the outcome relies on us keeping this memory intact.
That said, I've never been happy with the fact that Venat escapes along with us. The whole story would work better if she also had lost her memory, and this scene probably would have played out better if we alone escaped through a tiny crack, perhaps only able to slip through because of our weak aether.
I also think in general that things in the story "really" happen faster than they play out on screen, because the writers do love their drawn-out farewell speeches.
To be clear, I am not happy with how they handled the Elpis arc either, but I prefer to justify as much of the existing story as possible and just have thoughts on how they could have better approaches to certain details.
Going from memory, but I'm pretty sure he said it was never anywhere other than where it is – i.e. he knew it was in that place all along, but was pretending it was somewhere else.Quote:
Originally Posted by SannaR
From blocking us when we try to escape through the confluence, seems the obvious conclusion. Perhaps it wasn't going to be open for very long once it was cracked open. And more immediately-but-hypothetically perhaps, distract Hermes from noticing the location of the real confluence (if it was visible to someone with average aetherial sight) by pretending there was one somewhere else that only the people with strong aetherial sight could see.Quote:
Originally Posted by PawPaw