can we talk about casters

okay this has been a big issue for a while but with 6.2 its somehow even worse, people have this weird idea that melee uptime is hard and thats why ranged jobs should be weak but in this expansion melee uptime is not a thing as a melee almost every fight has free uptime and if it doesnt the boss goes untargertable which makes me wonder why are ranged jobs getting taxed this high especially casters having to plan the fight so you never need to drop a cast bar and still do so little damage in comparison is very discouraging.

im not saying all casters and phys ranged should be higher than all melees its just that the variance between job damage this time is pretty big

i hope the devs reconsider the current balance.
(this is a repost cuz i posted it under the wrong forum)

Casters and healers actually fighting for uptime while the melee play 10% damage up phys ranged is getting really old at this point

(Just gonna post this again)

Are you publicly admitting on an official forum that you openly use 3rd party damage meters?

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Originally Posted by Saimeren

Are you publicly admitting on an official forum that you openly use 3rd party damage meters?

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No, the software he use is exactly the same with what devs use when they test jobs so it is 100% legal.;)

EXCEL

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Originally Posted by Saimeren

Are you publicly admitting on an official forum that you openly use 3rd party damage meters?

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Think about it, you can have access to statistics without necessarily using 3rd party tools, because yes the majority of player who do savage raid use them,
and it's not a secret since the existence of mmorpgs.

and as this person mentions, calculating DPS is possible with EXCEL.

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Originally Posted by Saimeren

Are you publicly admitting on an official forum that you openly use 3rd party damage meters?

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I don't know what you're talking about but there's this cool website that proves his point. I can't really tell how they managed to get all these numbers but they feel pretty accurate.

https://i.imgur.com/HVO5RSD.png

As a matter of fact, you do seem to be part of that website as I can see your existence.

Can I also forward you to the balance discord? The place where math wizards do their magic and actually shows that, indeed, melee DPS are physical ranged with 10% free damage while casters (except scummoner) and healers are fighting for uptime.

Ok so this is true the hit boxes need to revert back to the old savage hit box sizes where melees would actually have to greed for their uptime and not handed to them on a silver platter. Because its ridiculous to know that pfs meta is leaning toward 3 melee and 1 free dps slot to meet dps checks due to the difficulty in bringing “good” dmg especially on casters in P7S and such when the hitbox is ridiculously large which makes NO sense.

I'm raiding on NIN this tier but I've been playing RDM since Stormblood so I'm with you casters. At the very least SMN+RDM need to be close to the lowest melee. That's historically how things have generally been, at least with RDM as SMN was a different animal in the past. Last I looked RDM was even below the phys ranged which is unacceptable with how much the job has to fight for uptime. 2 accelerations and 1 swift isn't enough when many mobile parts will have RDM outside of melee range. The new EX was the first time I straight up refused to touch the fight with RDM and EX trials are usually my RDM time. Having a rez doesn't even justify it doing so poorly because "just swap to SMN/BLM after prog" is poor design.

Ranged tax needs to go. They literally said in the notes that the fights this expansion have been designed with melee uptime in mind. Isn’t that literally the reason they’ve said in the past that ranged and caster DPS is lower?

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Originally Posted by Sequora

Ranged tax needs to go. They literally said in the notes that the fights this expansion have been designed with melee uptime in mind. Isn’t that literally the reason they’ve said in the past that ranged and caster DPS is lower?

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I played melee last tier, had absolutely 0 uptime problems, so i don't see why there's a ranged tax anymore.

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Originally Posted by Saimeren

Are you publicly admitting on an official forum that you openly use 3rd party damage meters?

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nope i use a website called fflogs i dont use 3rd party addons im on ps5

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Originally Posted by Reimmi

I played melee last tier, had absolutely 0 uptime problems, so i don't see why there's a ranged tax anymore.

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It is normal that some mobility tax exists, but it should be drastically reduced, especially since the red mage is only mobile 60% of his rotation, and the summoner about 90%. but it is above all that he has a moment of risk taking in the rotation, the red mage who has a melee combo, and the summoner who must use his gap closer Ifrit+ ifrit melee spell.

the casters must be +- 4% behind the melee, however the black mage always needs to have a good lead over RDM and SMN, so they must also adjust it if they increase the damage of the casters.

Machinist should also be 4% below Melee DPS.

The Bard and the Dancer seem to be in a good place due to their synergy and the latest crit changes,
if the bard and the dancer have +- equal contribution it is very good.

they also need to buff the reaper to be at the same RDPS level as dragoon.

I love how riled up I got people with my troll comment. Lol I didn't for one second think anyone was going to take that seriously.

You guys are funny.

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Originally Posted by Saimeren

I love how riled up I got people with my troll comment. Lol I didn't for one second think anyone was going to take that seriously.

You guys are funny.

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Tell me then how to tell the difference between a Troll,
and a person who really thinks what they write, it's a little difficult to guess, or else it must have an explicit ending in the writing.

It certainly has a lot of trolls on a forum, but also a lot of people who have different opinions and actually mean what they write,
It is impossible to really understand if the person is serious or not without distinction, it is often what leads to misunderstandings.

/s

Better?

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Originally Posted by Saimeren

I love how riled up I got people with my troll comment. Lol I didn't for one second think anyone was going to take that seriously.

You guys are funny.

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So... you know... don't troll, maybe?

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Originally Posted by remiff

It is normal that some mobility tax exists, but it should be drastically reduced, especially since the red mage is only mobile 60% of his rotation, and the summoner about 90%. but it is above all that he has a moment of risk taking in the rotation, the red mage who has a melee combo, and the summoner who must use his gap closer Ifrit+ ifrit melee spell.

the casters must be +- 4% behind the melee, however the black mage always needs to have a good lead over RDM and SMN, so they must also adjust it if they increase the damage of the casters.

Machinist should also be 4% below Melee DPS.

The Bard and the Dancer seem to be in a good place due to their synergy and the latest crit changes,
if the bard and the dancer have +- equal contribution it is very good.

they also need to buff the reaper to be at the same RDPS level as dragoon.

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What about buff BLM over the melee and then put the casters in amongst the melee with the phys ranged just below the rest

Melee have absolutely no reason to have to be at the top of the pile now that square is explicitly making it so they can’t lose uptime even if they try

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Originally Posted by remiff

It is normal that some mobility tax exists, but it should be drastically reduced, especially since the red mage is only mobile 60% of his rotation, and the summoner about 90%. but it is above all that he has a moment of risk taking in the rotation, the red mage who has a melee combo, and the summoner who must use his gap closer Ifrit+ ifrit melee spell.

the casters must be +- 4% behind the melee, however the black mage always needs to have a good lead over RDM and SMN, so they must also adjust it if they increase the damage of the casters.

Machinist should also be 4% below Melee DPS.

The Bard and the Dancer seem to be in a good place due to their synergy and the latest crit changes,
if the bard and the dancer have +- equal contribution it is very good.

they also need to buff the reaper to be at the same RDPS level as dragoon.

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It’s not normal to have ranged tax anymore, the last tier that melee uptime was a thing on was verse casters struggle more with the uptime and since the devs said they design the fights now with melee uptime in mind then it should be the other way around casters should do more damage since they have to struggle for uptime(excluding smn)

Sorry I'm slide casting for my dps and swift cast for incase death or drip dps gain. Meanwhile a melee got 2 stacks of true north and they can ask the tank to move the boss to a certain direction for positional. New melee got it easy mode on this expansion. Let's accept we have it hard but when the time comes... (aka buffs caster in general) we be gods!

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Originally Posted by Saimeren

I love how riled up I got people with my troll comment. Lol I didn't for one second think anyone was going to take that seriously.

You guys are funny.

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I don't really know who you are but usually it's up for others to judge and perceive a message written with words. Still, usually not a smart idea to say anything to a group of players who's just being ignored by the dev team and "defend" yourself by saying, "Guys, it was a joke!"

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Originally Posted by angienessyo

I'm raiding on NIN this tier but I've been playing RDM since Stormblood so I'm with you casters. At the very least SMN+RDM need to be close to the lowest melee. That's historically how things have generally been, at least with RDM as SMN was a different animal in the past. Last I looked RDM was even below the phys ranged which is unacceptable with how much the job has to fight for uptime. 2 accelerations and 1 swift isn't enough when many mobile parts will have RDM outside of melee range. The new EX was the first time I straight up refused to touch the fight with RDM and EX trials are usually my RDM time. Having a rez doesn't even justify it doing so poorly because "just swap to SMN/BLM after prog" is poor design.

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Thanks for the support brother. Summoner ain't really better. It's "better" because they avoid the uptime issues form caster thanks to their superior mobility which, somehow, Square really wanted to prove but it's only proved that its still a bad design and that RDM is just suffering from it.

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Originally Posted by angienessyo

I'm raiding on NIN this tier but I've been playing RDM since Stormblood so I'm with you casters. At the very least SMN+RDM need to be close to the lowest melee. That's historically how things have generally been, at least with RDM as SMN was a different animal in the past. Last I looked RDM was even below the phys ranged which is unacceptable with how much the job has to fight for uptime. 2 accelerations and 1 swift isn't enough when many mobile parts will have RDM outside of melee range. The new EX was the first time I straight up refused to touch the fight with RDM and EX trials are usually my RDM time. Having a rez doesn't even justify it doing so poorly because "just swap to SMN/BLM after prog" is poor design.

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i wont even consider a caster this tier, the only reason to bring a caster is for the 1% party buff otherwise just bring melee and dnc

Or use the class that fits you the most.
Im testing sometimes meeele (or have them even as Main, like monk from 5.4 to the fight agains Endsinger, or Reaper, the second Main meele in endwalker, or last month the drg).
Even sometimes other caster.

But the class where i feel as the best is simply the Black mage. Each other class has something, that didnt fit me.

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Originally Posted by Keichi

Or use the class that fits you the most.
Im testing sometimes meeele (or have them even as Main, like monk from 5.4 to the fight agains Endsinger, or Reaper, the second Main meele in endwalker, or last month the drg).
Even sometimes other caster.

But the class where i feel as the best is simply the Black mage. Each other class has something, that didnt fit me.

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I’d love to play whatever class I want, too bad square can’t balance the classes to save themselves any playing anything that’s not a melee feels like griefing my party at this point

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

What about buff BLM over the melee and then put the casters in amongst the melee with the phys ranged just below the rest

Melee have absolutely no reason to have to be at the top of the pile now that square is explicitly making it so they can’t lose uptime even if they try

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Originally Posted by momokami

It’s not normal to have ranged tax anymore, the last tier that melee uptime was a thing on was verse casters struggle more with the uptime and since the devs said they design the fights now with melee uptime in mind then it should be the other way around casters should do more damage since they have to struggle for uptime(excluding smn)

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I'd be surprised if they did, especially after completely ignoring the problem in 6.2 and the first minor patch.

That's why I don't expect them to remove entirely this tax.

If Melee has no downtime then casters should probably be buffed. Then again if constant movement is the issue then maybe mastering Infinite Paradox BLM is the way to go.

RDM and SMN have the issue where anything meaningful for the RDM is in their Burst and SMN has a trash can of a kit between restrictive summon system and outdated Aetherflow tacked on to it.

BLM seems like the only decent option but compared to the other DPS it's quite low as well with all the melees being propped up this xpac.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

If Melee has no downtime then casters should probably be buffed. Then again if constant movement is the issue then maybe mastering Infinite Paradox BLM is the way to go.

RDM and SMN have the issue where anything meaningful for the RDM is in their Burst and SMN has a trash can of a kit between restrictive summon system and outdated Aetherflow tacked on to it.

BLM seems like the only decent option but compared to the other DPS it's quite low as well with all the melees being propped up this xpac.

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Infinite paradox is a fun optimisation of BLM’s lines that show the class still has interesting optimisation, but it’s also too weak to compete with a melee in general considering the melee don’t have to fight at all for uptime

It’s like “learn an entirely different rotation to do 5% less damage than a SAM doing the same rotation they always do or just play SAM”

Balance is just not good. If casters have to fight for uptime then they should be buffed and they won't buff BLM because RDM and SMN hit like a wet noodle from a pot of overcooked noodles that have long since lost their taste. So they have to buff all of them.

The only caster that hasn't been gutted in damage ironically is BLU.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

If Melee has no downtime then casters should probably be buffed. Then again if constant movement is the issue then maybe mastering Infinite Paradox BLM is the way to go.

RDM and SMN have the issue where anything meaningful for the RDM is in their Burst and SMN has a trash can of a kit between restrictive summon system and outdated Aetherflow tacked on to it.

BLM seems like the only decent option but compared to the other DPS it's quite low as well with all the melees being propped up this xpac.

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In P8S, there is 1 moment and only one where there is a chance a melee DPS will lose 1 GCD. So apparently that 1 GCD is worth 8% to 10% right now according to SE.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

In P8S, there is 1 moment and only one where there is a chance a melee DPS will lose 1 GCD. So apparently that 1 GCD is worth 8% to 10% right now according to SE.

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a CHANCE to lose a gcd yeah sounds about right for melee uptime

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Originally Posted by angienessyo

I'm raiding on NIN this tier but I've been playing RDM since Stormblood so I'm with you casters. At the very least SMN+RDM need to be close to the lowest melee. That's historically how things have generally been, at least with RDM as SMN was a different animal in the past. Last I looked RDM was even below the phys ranged which is unacceptable with how much the job has to fight for uptime. 2 accelerations and 1 swift isn't enough when many mobile parts will have RDM outside of melee range. The new EX was the first time I straight up refused to touch the fight with RDM and EX trials are usually my RDM time. Having a rez doesn't even justify it doing so poorly because "just swap to SMN/BLM after prog" is poor design.

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On behalf of the range physical players, I thank you for your consideration of us, and you're welcome using us as the laughing stock bottom of the barrel metric to compare to as much as you want in the future!

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Originally Posted by remiff

It is normal that some mobility tax exists, but it should be drastically reduced, especially since the red mage is only mobile 60% of his rotation, and the summoner about 90%. but it is above all that he has a moment of risk taking in the rotation, the red mage who has a melee combo, and the summoner who must use his gap closer Ifrit+ ifrit melee spell.

the casters must be +- 4% behind the melee, however the black mage always needs to have a good lead over RDM and SMN, so they must also adjust it if they increase the damage of the casters.

Machinist should also be 4% below Melee DPS.

The Bard and the Dancer seem to be in a good place due to their synergy and the latest crit changes,
if the bard and the dancer have +- equal contribution it is very good.

they also need to buff the reaper to be at the same RDPS level as dragoon.

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I see some people really want to keep the ranged physical players in the dirt huh. Do you feel threatened by our presence or something? Because anything forbid parties start having the *gasp* double rPhys option!

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Originally Posted by Valence

Because anything forbid parties start having the *gasp* double rPhys option!

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Probably HW ptsd. Piercing Resist Down was a hell of a time.

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Originally Posted by Flana

Probably HW ptsd. Piercing Resist Down was a hell of a time.

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gordias cant hurt you anymore, i promise

I still get shudders thinking of tanking A3S.

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Originally Posted by Zarkovitch

Sorry I'm slide casting for my dps and swift cast for incase death or drip dps gain. Meanwhile a melee got 2 stacks of true north and they can ask the tank to move the boss to a certain direction for positional. New melee got it easy mode on this expansion. Let's accept we have it hard but when the time comes... (aka buffs caster in general) we be gods!

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Let's not forget that half the fights don't have positionals because the boss hitbox is a circle

Have to say, any time I get on a job to enjoy how asthetically pleasing and fun it might be, I'm quickly reminded while playing it just how much it lags behind due to that wonderful 'ranged mobility' tax they have. I'm not buying the response Yoshi P. gave following 6.21 patch. Not when he claims that players of said jobs can be far better than them and they used various compositions to win the fight before making final adjustment. If people who play these very jobs day in and day out and seek to min/max, crunch numbers, check formula, and practice a fight relentlessly only to struggle to make a DPS check that literally gets met the moment they change the composition to exclude specific jobs....there is something very wrong there.



What little changes they did to the tanks barely amount to 1~2% change over what they were before, where they were already lagging behind the others a noticeably. Picking and choosing your composition to make sure the ones that lag behind the most and offer little to no utility to the party to be excluded as a ranged job makes no sense to be brushed under the rug like he did with his response. Some jobs are back in the same position they ended up during the first tier of Eden during Shb until significant changes were made to them such as MP cost, regaining raid wide buffs again, or even potency and ability adjustments that looked minor at first, but ended up being very game changing over all.


I get that people don't want to see the same combat system over and over and over and over again, but it is starting to become increasingly clear that the dev team does not have the time to significantly test the changes in the necessary capacity required to see the actual imbalances they end up creating. I'm very disappointed with the current job balance right now in various areas (Ranged, healer, and tank stand out the most in comparison to one another or similar roles). I get they want to be able to continue to offer new content, story progression, working on next expansion, and so much more.....but if it is at the cost of leaving jobs behind because there is a very obvious balance issue....I'd rather they just wait a little more and fix the problem so each player can enjoy the content without feeling like they will be over looked for playing the job they enjoy the most simply because it doesn't have the same potential as others. That is the point Yoshi missed. That is why players are upset with the fight changes, that the balance is so much of an issue that rather than address it, they did the one thing they haven't had to do in nearly 6 years to put a band aid on a gaping wound of an issue.