Will Sin-eaters get the Voidsent treatment?

Think we will ever go back to the First to talk and interact with Sin-eaters like we are with the Voidsent?

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Originally Posted by Necrotica

Think we will ever go back to the First to talk and interact with Sin-eaters like we are with the Voidsent?

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from what i saw the stasis nature of light outright destroys any form of conscious thought soon after turning with the exception of vauthry whos like zero.

I'm pretty sure they already observed that the voidsent don't behave in the mindless way that sin eaters do. They're not being treated as the same thing in light and dark versions, but opposite ends of a scale.

If sin eaters had any ability to communicate with us, then the Virtues would have had to be up that end of the scale, and they don't show any sign of being reasoned with.

We interacted with a lot of sin eaters over the course of ShB, and of all of them only Eden and Vauthry seemed to have any conscious thought. On the other hand we've seen Voidsent be smart since ARR (maybe 1.0, I didn't play it), so this patch isn't really anything new on that front. I agree with Sidurgu, it's probably a result of light being stasis and darkness being activity, having affects on their minds.

Remember Halric and how he was basically in a waking coma. Turning into a sin eater seems to shut down a lot of mental functions.

Yeah as others have said I think its clear that the Void and Sin-Eaters, despite being born via similar means, are very much diffrent cretures. Whilst it would be cool to see some sentiant Eaters, and I personally would take any opportunity to go back to the First, it seems much of their indaviduality is erased or just reduced to despair and echos.

It's kind of ironic that a Sin Eater relies more on instinct than a Voidsent, which seems to have capacity for thought and plotting. Considering you know, Voidsent constantly hunger for aether, you'd think they'd have been the mindless ones.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

It's kind of ironic that a Sin Eater relies more on instinct than a Voidsent, which seems to have capacity for thought and plotting. Considering you know, Voidsent constantly hunger for aether, you'd think they'd have been the mindless ones.

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Maybe Sin Eaters are less aether efficient. If they are all about stagnancy they must hate having to move around all the time.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

It's kind of ironic that a Sin Eater relies more on instinct than a Voidsent, which seems to have capacity for thought and plotting. Considering you know, Voidsent constantly hunger for aether, you'd think they'd have been the mindless ones.

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I like it in a way, because it both switches expectations and means that both unique are not copies of each other.

Despite being the polar opposite in a way where it's clear things behave the same on both sides, you can't really say we could treat one 'the same' as the other story-wise because they're very different results. Sin Eaters are basically mindless zombies with some having the barest inkling of what they were like in life, while voidsent actually do retain some agency and personality, even if it's in a situation where that's not doing them a whole lot of good.

I think it's stupid to ask 'will we give sin eaters the voidsent treatment', because I think we already did; the stuff we're doing isn't new, it's giving Voidsent the Sin Eater treatment, in a way that's more suited for their traits and needs. Something they really put at the forefront with Sin Eaters is 'these were people', and exploring both the loss of personhood that entails (both with Tesleen and Halric) and the exploration and mourning of who they were (in particular with the Cardinal Virtues). With the Voidsent there's not really that notion of the individual having passed so much as gone through hugely life-changing events, so we can still interact with them as present-tense individuals, but there's still at least for some of them an exploration of who they were before.

Basicaly the main difference is that we can talk to voidsent and get some perspective from that. Talking to a sin eater would not be tremendously fulfilling.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

It's kind of ironic that a Sin Eater relies more on instinct than a Voidsent, which seems to have capacity for thought and plotting. Considering you know, Voidsent constantly hunger for aether, you'd think they'd have been the mindless ones.

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This type of difference in behavior appears to be based on Law and Chaos alignment behavior difference where Sin Eaters are in Law alignment and Voidsent are in Chaos alignment.

A example is Shin Megami Tensei series where Law aligned characters often have more single minded belief to a point they have less ability to think for themselves to act in a Orderly way of life with the masses while Chaos aligned characters are more free acting and independent which often lead to their acts towards harming others or siding with certain people for personal gain.

The matter of them being Good or Evil on the other hand is a matter on how the handle their beliefs which so far Sin Eaters and Voidsent fall under Evil alignment.

Well, other than the already stated Astral vs. Umbral differences, their origin is also inverted.

Voidsent were created by the Ascians' plans succeeding all too well. When the Flood of Darkness happened, it was intentionally done without the knowledge that flooding the shard wouldn't rejoin it. Only in the aftermath did they discover that this was not the way to go.

Sin Eaters were created when Ardbert half killed a fused Ascian with the Blade of Light. This ruptured the delicate balance the Ascians had brought about, cascading into a Flood of Light that was stopped by Minfilia. This rendered the First salvageable for a Rejoining, and so the other Ascians, namely Emet-selch, took measures to control the Sin Eaters. There was the creation of Vauthry, but if you notice when we defeat Mitron in Eden, there was no need to soak up his soul, and his soul did not have the same properties as all of the Sin Eater Light Wardens.

It's never explicitly stated to my knowledge, but this implies that the Light Wardens were crafted by the Ascians. Designer monsters, so to speak. Which we know now from Amaurot and Elpis was their specialty.

It could be that Sin Eaters would have developed a more tranquil form of the Voidsent culture we see now in the 13th, if they were left alone or if the Flood hadn't been stopped. They weren't though.

Not too mention, the Lifestream for the 1st is intact, unlike the 13th. Meaning that Sin Eaters still have the flesh and soul dichotomy going on, whereas Voidsent barely do, sort of.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

I think it's stupid to ask 'will we give sin eaters the voidsent treatment', because I think we already did; the stuff we're doing isn't new, it's giving Voidsent the Sin Eater treatment, in a way that's more suited for their traits and needs.

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That's a good point. It's not that we treated the sin eaters and voidsent differently; in both cases they attacked us and we fought back.

The difference is that the eaters just kept attacking and mumbling "braaaains aeeether" while the voidsent backed off and said "wow you're really strong, I'm not going to try to fight you, please don't hurt me" – and once that happens, we're able to engage with them.

If the sin eaters had been similarly lucid, we would have tried to engage with them too.

Man I have the memory of a goldfish and so does the WoL. We should have assumed the top voidsent would be like Lightwardens. In which case absorbing their Aether is still an option if Zero is not around.

I think that's just their nature.
Voidsent are kinda hyper conscious.
To the point that countless consciousnesses can just merge and become insanity or be overwhelmed by instinct.
They're eternal and keep coming back no matter what.
The active nature of Darkness.

Sin Eaters on the other hand are based on the stagnant nature of Light.
Instead of their consciousnesses being immortal, it's the opposite.
They completely stop, and move like a force of nature to stop everything else.

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Originally Posted by Necrotica

Man I have the memory of a goldfish and so does the WoL. We should have assumed the top voidsent would be like Lightwardens. In which case absorbing their Aether is still an option if Zero is not around.

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Wouldn't suggest it, didn't end well the first time.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Wouldn't suggest it, didn't end well the first time.

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I dunno about that. We won, and are alive. It could have ended with us imperiling our friends and family as we transform into a monster most fiendish, but as it stands currently in story it actually ended rather well for us. Do I think they'll retread those same story beats not a single whole expansion after Shadowbringers? Of course not. Besides, Zero doesn't even "absorb" Voidsent and the only reason the Sin Eater's flowed into us is because that's how Lightwardens work. Voidsent don't work that way, the only thing that can absorb a Voidsent's aether is another Voidsent. And the Eyes of Nidhogg I guess, but Niddy's orbs are dead and dusted. The premise of this proposal is flawed.

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Originally Posted by SentioftheHoukai

I dunno about that. We won, and are alive. It could have ended with us imperiling our friends and family as we transform into a monster most fiendish, but as it stands currently in story it actually ended rather well for us. Do I think they'll retread those same story beats not a single whole expansion after Shadowbringers? Of course not. Besides, Zero doesn't even "absorb" Voidsent and the only reason the Sin Eater's flowed into us is because that's how Lightwardens work. Voidsent don't work that way, the only thing that can absorb a Voidsent's aether is another Voidsent. And the Eyes of Nidhogg I guess, but Niddy's orbs are dead and dusted. The premise of this proposal is flawed.

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Zero can't absorb them apparently. Otherwise why crystallize them. Would make more sense to consume their aether and get more powerful.

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Originally Posted by Necrotica

Zero can't absorb them apparently. Otherwise why crystallize them. Would make more sense to consume their aether and get more powerful.

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she admitted she could but she doesn't want to sacrifice her personality for the power-up.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

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I don't think that the sin eaters were deliberately 'crafted'. After the Flood of Darkness occurred, the First was the most ripe target for a Rejoining because of its natural opposite polarity. The Ascians perpetually failed to achieve this over the next ten thousand years due to a series of major failures and arrogant oversights, the last of which resulted in the complete and utter annihilation of their leadership and subsequent dissolution of their faction.

Mitron's transformation into Eden was also unintentional, and his experiences match up with what we've seen of the sin eaters to date. He was completely discarded without regard by Emet and Elidibus, left locked-in a state where he couldn't even move or do anything except feebly whisper to Loghrif's reincarnated form for help. Emet's death at the end of Shadowbringers really reminds me of the showdown between Mengsk vs. Kerrigan at the end of Heart of the Swarm, and I almost wish that it could have been a Voidsent to do the deed for some picture perfect poetic justice.

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Originally Posted by sidurgu-12

she admitted she could but she doesn't want to sacrifice her personality for the power-up.

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So over time eating scion aether she will become a good little hero?

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Originally Posted by Necrotica

So over time eating scion aether she will become a good little hero?

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it needs to be a complete devouring, like what happened with the two voidsent in her domain.

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Originally Posted by Necrotica

So over time eating scion aether she will become a good little hero?

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Man if that was how it work, the voidsent of WoL playing reaper would have save the 13th before we even stepped in.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I don't think that the sin eaters were deliberately 'crafted'.

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It's a good thing I never said that. I said the Light Wardens likely were, which we know that one of them was, that one being Vauthry.

To wit, why is it only Light Wardens flood into the nearest being after their defeat in order to perpetuate the blighted sky? Why is it not a trait of all Sin Eaters?

Do try to stay on topic, please. And maybe do more than skim read.

I'm mostly curious as to what the association between the Amdapori golems and sin eaters is, considering that it's questioned in-game by Alphinaud as though it's something we also should be wondering about.

The Triple Triad Cards for the Lightwardens;

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Philia: The Lightwarden of Lakeland. The manacles which encircled its four limbs were whispered to be remnants of its mortal life─an elf, once held prisoner within the Hour of Certain Durance. Meaning “brotherly love,” Philia was the name bitterly bestowed upon the eater after it descended upon its home village and devoured its former neighbors.

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Titania: King and ruler of the faeries, Titania once defeated a Lightwarden that threatened Il Mheg, only to be corrupted by the aether that was subsequently released. For long years thence, the fallen monarch was kept imprisoned within Lyhe Ghiah.

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Eros: The Lightwarden of the Rak'tika Greatwood. A chimeric monstrosity, Eros was thought to be the amalgamation of several unfortunate creatures that were caught up and fused together by the Flood of Light. The meaning of its name─“romantic love”─is a mocking play upon the intimate and uncontrolled embrace which resulted in its present appearance.

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Storge: The Lightwarden of Amh Araeng. Believed to have arisen from the corrupted essence of a sprite or faerie, the entity named for “familial love” made its lair in Malikah's Well. Legends tell that Storge feasted upon the memories infused within its domain─upon a queen's adulation for her departed king.

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Innocence: Corrupted by the power of a Lightwarden whilst he was yet a babe in the womb, Lord Vauthry, ruler of Eulmore, underwent a drastic metamorphosis when that power was awoken. He assumed the form of “Innocence,” an entity whose radiant might and presence would eclipse all Wardens that had come before.

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Nothing seems to indicate that the Lightwardens were designed, but rather that their natures and appearances were in some way a reflection of them before they were corrupted by the flood of light.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

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That's how aetheric corruption works, though. Eden was effectively the first 'Lightwarden', having an enormous amount of aspected umbral aether. It doesn't simply dissipate on its own. In Emet's case, we were able to dissipate it largely because he was astrally-aspected, likely as a result of his tempering. Perhaps on some level, we restored the balance in both our souls when we impaled him. In Mitron's case, we had to break it down by elemental component and then pit ourselves against an umbral-aspected being in order to dissipate it.

None of this was intelligently planned. The Ascians tried to exploit whatever they gleaned from their previous bungles, but they were more cruel than clever.

Its interesting this behavior is being pointed out about Sin-Eaters & Voidsent because of their alignment.

I remember way back in ARR there was a similar case with Leviathan's thralls when they fully turned to the water alignment, and transformed into monstrosities.

What would the Water Alignment behavior represent?

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Originally Posted by Kaliesto

Its interesting this behavior is being pointed out about Sin-Eaters & Voidsent because of their alignment.

I remember way back in ARR there was a similar case with Leviathan's thralls when they fully turned to the water alignment, and transformed into monstrosities.

What would the Water Alignment behavior represent?

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Joke answer: Piracy, duh.

Actual answer: Over-aspecting from primal tempering isn't quite comparable, since a significant part of the tempering process isn't just over-aspecting, but also a stagnation of the soul leading to a loss of a sense of self, which the primal can then overpower. As a result, we have zero examples of elemental over-aspecting that might actually show what that alone could result in mentally, only physically.

Key factor for sin eaters being dumb might also be that there is still a lifestream on the First.
Had light fully taken over without a calamity on the source to pop the bubble, they may have eventually developed minds like voidsent.

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Originally Posted by Necrotica

Key factor for sin eaters being dumb might also be that there is still a lifestream on the First.
Had light fully taken over without a calamity on the source to pop the bubble, they may have eventually developed minds like voidsent.

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i dont think anything would survive if light completely took over since it would bring everything to a perfect standstill.

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Originally Posted by sidurgu-12

i dont think anything would survive if light completely took over since it would bring everything to a perfect standstill.

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Void world still has rocks and non moving things. I am sure light world could have plenty of movement things. Arguably a bunch of sin eaters are much faster after being transformed

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I'm mostly curious as to what the association between the Amdapori golems and sin eaters is, considering that it's questioned in-game by Alphinaud as though it's something we also should be wondering about.

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The Encyclopedia Eorzea says the golems were created in the image of beings from another plane that the Amdapori saw visions of, but if we assume this to mean the First, the timeline doesn't line up unless they were seeing visions of the future.

I headcanon this as the Ascians experimented with light imbalances on at least some other shards and sin eaters existed on those in some numbers, but not to the extent they did on the First. In the same way Voeburt had some voidsent. But that's just my headcanon, there's no evidence for it and no actual explanation for the timeline discrepancy in how Amdapor saw sin eaters.

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Originally Posted by Necrotica

Void world still has rocks and non moving things. I am sure light world could have plenty of movement things. Arguably a bunch of sin eaters are much faster after being transformed

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The void has those things because they were created by powerful voidsent. That's what we see in the sky, those red orbs floating over a cloudy abyss, those are the "domains" of powerful voidsent. There mention that even the world itself was lost to the astral energies of Darkness and the Fell Court of Troia is explicitly mentioned to have been made in the image of the original Troia by Beatrice.

Have to keep in mind that the Voidsent have had perhaps thousands of years to develop into their current form since the fall of the 13th. The sin-eaters are still relatively young- arriving in living memory puts them at 100, maybe 150 years old (I forget exactly, but I do remember one NPC being alive for it as they remembered what the night sky was like).

This isn't to say Sineaters would become like voidsent given time, more that it is a possibility that we just don't know. Certainly, some of the older ones (job quest related) exhibited some intelligence above your average sineater...and of course Vauthry is an example of what a sineater could be.

We also have to keep in mind that Astral (stasis) and Umbral (active) have diffrent aspects- so the nature of aether might also have some effect on their evolution.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

Certainly, some of the older ones (job quest related) exhibited some intelligence above your average sineater...and of course Vauthry is an example of what a sineater could be.

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The Virtues are apparently only recent creations, having only started appearing about three years ago.

Also, Vauthry isn't a good example of "what a sin eater could be" because he's half-human.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

The Virtues are apparently only recent creations, having only started appearing about three years ago.

Also, Vauthry isn't a good example of "what a sin eater could be" because he's half-human.

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I'm not sure the Virtues are recent as their human bases were essentially there at ground zero- I would argue they are some of the first, just that the population at large wasn't aware of them until recently. Like Eden, my opinion is that they were mindless until recently, only now starting to act on their own motivations.

Regarding Vauthry- being half or born from a human mother doesn't necessarily make him any less of a sineater. We don't know the rules at play here- is being a sineater is not some kind of parentage DNA thing, is it more akin to a virus/zombie-ism? Is it using Tolkien rules? (eg. in Tolkien's LOTR, Elrond was born to a human and elven parent, yet despite his name he is a full elf while his brother a full human).

At the very least we can look to Eden itself as an example of an intelligent Sineater that was mindless until only recently. So certainly the possibility for gaining intellect is there.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

I'm not sure the Virtues are recent as their human bases were essentially there at ground zero- I would argue they are some of the first, just that the population at large wasn't aware of them until recently. Like Eden, my opinion is that they were mindless until recently, only now starting to act on their own motivations.

Regarding Vauthry- being half or born from a human mother doesn't necessarily make him any less of a sineater. We don't know the rules at play here- is being a sineater is not some kind of parentage DNA thing, is it more akin to a virus/zombie-ism? Is it using Tolkien rules? (eg. in Tolkien's LOTR, Elrond was born to a human and elven parent, yet despite his name he is a full elf while his brother a full human).

At the very least we can look to Eden itself as an example of an intelligent Sineater that was mindless until only recently. So certainly the possibility for gaining intellect is there.

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Except we know for a fact the Virtues are creations of Vauthry, I believe Cylva explains that Vauthry had essentially reanimated their corpses. The Warriors of Darkness did not become sin eaters at ground zero because they had the Blessing of Light. Whether their lifeless bodies could be corrupted by the light so long as their souls persisted outside the life stream is uncertain but the theory posed by the Scions is that their bodies should have remained protected by it even in death but that since the aether of their souls was exhausted by Minfillia's efforts to stay the flood they were no longer protected. But the fact is they were 100% created by Vauthry.

And yes Vauthry is a sin eater but it is explicitly stated he is also a man, he is both, but like you said it does not make him any less of a sin eater but by the same token it does not make him less of mortal being. Sin eaters do not have a sense of self, they act purely on instinct; yet he clearly experiences emotions and all the imperfections of being a person. I think it would be more akin to like a symbiotic relationship except the sin eater does not have a self to impart onto Vauthry, it is fused with his very being. Sin eaters must consume living aether in order to survive and we know all too well that he is a cannibal (seen eating meol which is sin eater flesh). So he experiences the benefits of both but also the downsides of being both. He experiences the independent thought and emotions of people, which can be seen as both good and bad. On the sin eater/lightwarden side, he has great power which grants him command over lesser sin eaters but also the drive to consume living aether. Given that voidsent consume each other, I'm gonna say it would not be unusual for other sin eaters to consume each other it was just never witnessed by anyone.

EDIT: It occurs to me the reason for the lack of the blessing's protection was specifically for Ardbert which isn't exactly the same given that his soul technically still exists in a manner of speaking but it has joined the rest of the fragments of Azem within ours. The theory still stands however, if Ardbert was incapable of being reanimated like the other WoDs since his soul still persisted then it would stand to reason that the others lacked this protection because the aether of their souls has disappeared.

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Originally Posted by Ascended_Demon

Except we know for a fact the Virtues are creations of Vauthry.

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Good point I did not remember- I retract my stance on the Virtues; I'm still not sure on Vauthry, and of course there is still Eden... though perhaps one could argue Eden is something else too (half Ascian, or that Ascian souls do something different when turned)

I still would argue my main point that Sineaters as a "race" are still young, and there is a lot of unknown in that, especially on whether a typical Sineater could eventually become self-aware/intelligent given enough time.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

Regarding Vauthry- being half or born from a human mother doesn't necessarily make him any less of a sineater. [...]

At the very least we can look to Eden itself as an example of an intelligent Sineater that was mindless until only recently. So certainly the possibility for gaining intellect is there.

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The thing about Vauthry is that we can't know what the balance of each side was, therefore we can't rule out any human-like behaviour as being a result of his human side.

Eden is also an outlier, having formed from an Ascian rather than mortal soul.

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Originally Posted by Ascended_Demon

And yes Vauthry is a sin eater but it is explicitly stated he is also a man, he is both, but like you said it does not make him any less of a sin eater but by the same token it does not make him less of mortal being. Sin eaters do not have a sense of self, they act purely on instinct; yet he clearly experiences emotions and all the imperfections of being a person.

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Titania is also described as "corrupted" in this same way--a living being overwhelmed by the power of a Lightwarden. Still retained enough of their former self to be "sick of this cramped old castle", and still retained their form, but apparently now too murderous for even the Fuath. :p

Maybe it's more a parasitic relationship than symbiotic? The emergence of Innocence never looked like an actual transformation to me, as the face in Vauthry's chest sinks in, and when his back splits open, you can actually see Innocence's head/hair/back/wings inside. It gave the impression of some Junji Ito nightmare meat cocoon. The aether-like sparkles while it was happening suggested the sin eater just absorbed what was left of the host's body, but still retained that twisted version of Vauthry's self as the Il Mheg Warden retained Titania's.

I really wish they had explained things better than that footnote of a cutscene with Emet-Selch and the Former Mayor.

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Originally Posted by Ascended_Demon

meol which is sin eater flesh

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This part has always confused me. Sin Eaters throughout the game were shown to have no blood, bones, or meat. They dissolve into sparkles--the dialogues really stressed the sparkles thing iirc, as those would turn anyone caught in them into an Eater also. Even Tesleen, who recently turned, just poofed when defeated in Holminster Switch.

Did they just dust those buns with sparklies like it was flour? Condense the sin eater down like a soup?

There weren't enough people in Kholusia to "disappear" for twenty years to do all that, without starting a panic. :confused: And I'm still not sure why the extra step of bread was required. Meol was an optional dish for the rest of the Eulmorans, and if it was part of some plan, it was a terrible one. It just made some of them sleepy, and the others lurch around and mumble, lol.

Getting back on topic--Voidsent seem a lot more focused and less prone to random outbursts to the Light-corrupted on The First? So far, anyway. Zero doesn't seem a perfect parallel to Vauthry, as Zero isn't hosting another creature in her hitbox, unless maybe Zeromus is hiding under that cool glam. ;) (But that would be too obvious!)