Here's my newest Expert Recipes guide for the Water Otter Fountain components introduced in Patch 6.2. It's not entirely finished yet... still need to add more case studies later, but at least the main framework is up:
https://i.imgur.com/8AAgkf1.jpg
http://ffxivrealm.com/guides/endwalker-expert-recipe-guide-by-caimie-tsukino.223/
As it is fresh from the oven and it's rather complex, if you catch any errors, please kindly let me know.
Thanks! :)
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EDIT (15 Oct 2022): FFXIVRealm is down. Here's a PDF version:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/stomhwk08g...05%29.pdf?dl=0
Endwalker Expert Recipe Guide by Caimie Tsukino
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09-04-2022, 09:59 AMCaimie_TsukinoEndwalker Expert Recipe Guide by Caimie Tsukino
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09-05-2022, 07:36 AMTattersailNightwish
Well thank you for that. It's a lot to digest and over multiple readings.
I've been following a few videos that mainly show people crafting these due to luck. Lots of ".. and now if could just get a... YEAH centered there you go"'s.
You mentioned " one may succeed in doing these Expert Recipes while the other may fail miserably" well I fall into that latter category. Our stats are nearly identical except for the FC buff.
The opening synth phase is easy enough - it either works or it doesn't, due to bad RNG but at least you find out earlier rather than later to just hit the Quit button.
Its the quality phase I'm having a devil of a time with.. but that's nothing new with me I've hated Expert Recipes since they first debuted and that hasn't changed one bit.
I'm on a mission this time to get this figured out. -
09-05-2022, 11:19 AMCaimie_TsukinoYes and no... I found that I can usually afford 3 to 4 failed Rapid Syn. If I fail 6x or more, I'd probably just quit it. But otherwise, I usually try not to give up too early.Quote:
Originally Posted by TattersailNightwish
Spamming of Rapid Syn while Vene is up is a common thing to do... even I do it sometimes. But I now tend to refrain from doing it too recklessly. Sometimes, it seems burning 1 step of Vene with something else (like observe) to get the conditions to roll really helps. If we can just get most of the Rapid Syns to land on a Sturdy, Centered or Malleable, then the chance of "final failure of craft" can be reduced. But because of the "delays" induced by actions like Observe, sometimes it's just hard to know whether you should quit it or not at the opening phase. That's why I said "yes and no", because it's not always true that one can identify early whether it's a dead craft or not (unless one set up Vene+Rapid Syn spam 2 times in a row, and fail like 6 to 7 Rapid Syn within seconds). -
09-05-2022, 01:31 PMTattersailNightwish
Well thank Hydaelyn for little miracles...
"Your trial synthesis of a length of water otter fountain lumber proved a success!"
My stats while doing this (same food/medicine) AND the FC buffs are 3779, 3780, 687 cp. Just don't have the patience (or want to part with the gil) do re-meld the one piece or two to flip craftsmanship and control.. but I did notice your craftsmanship IS 200 more than your control. May be something to that. -
09-05-2022, 01:58 PMCaimie_TsukinoCongrats on the success! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by TattersailNightwish
I think your stats are fine. There's no need to remeld at all.
Mine are (after food, med and FC buff):
Craftsmanship: 3838
Control: 3731
CP: 687
So my craftsmanship is about 100 points more than my control. -
09-06-2022, 09:10 AMTattersailNightwish
If you get to a point where Progress is done, but find yourself low on IQ, what's the most efficient way to get that to 10, having the durability to start doing the combo?
Is it the basic/standard/advanced combo (unless a centered comes along an you go for hasty touch)? -
09-06-2022, 12:29 PMCaimie_TsukinoHi Tatter,Quote:
Originally Posted by TattersailNightwish
In that situation, you will be relying mostly on Hasty on Centered/Sturdy, as well as Precise Touch to collect IQ stacks. If condition is Normal, try to do something to bait for a better condition. Observe is one way, but if CP is starting to cut short, you can use Careful Obs, or even Heart&Soul. Heart&Soul can be used to get that Tricks of Trade available as a mean to get a bit more CP as well as bait for another condition. Alternatively, you can use it for a Precise Touch, so you can be closer to IQ10. That will also allow you to bait for another condition.
In the case that you have plenty of durab (i.e. current durab + Manip steps = 35 or above, and current durab is not as low as 20), and if you encounter a Primed, and assuming your Manip still have 3+ steps, so you don't want to refresh it yet, you can then use Innovation (so you get 6 steps of Innov), and then followed by the BSA combo. If Centered appear before you start the BSA, you can use Hasty first and then resume your BSA (but count your durab to make sure you have enough for a full BSA combo). If you're in the middle of your BSA, and Centered appear, I'd just ignore it. It's not good to have invested so much CP on BT and/ST, but not carrying out the AT. However, if a Good appear any time, go straight for the Precise Touch even if it breaks the combo. If you did break the combo, do not resume if you don't have enough durab or Innov steps to reach AT. The BSA combo is BETTER than Hasty on Centered, but NOT as good as Precise. And it's only good if you go all the way to AT under effect of Innov. -
09-13-2022, 11:22 AMCaimie_Tsukino
Just an update here... after "casually" crafting these for about 1 hour a day for the past week, here's my extra 2 cents...
(1) Since successive Rapid Syn failures are "craft-breakers", I now tend to hold off as much Rapid Syn as possible on "Normal" (or Malleable/Primed) condition. Even when Vene is active, I like to bait with Careful Obs or even Observe to try to get a Centered or Sturdy. This may end up needing to renew the Vene buff more times, but it's still better than failing 4 Rapid Syns in a row. This strategy seems to work quite well for me.
(2) After progress is >6.5K, don't "push too hard" with Rapid Syn anymore. Unless there's a Centered there just waiting for you to use Rapid Syn, otherwise switch to a more secure way to finish it. This is very important. Even if it cost you CP and durab, it's still better than doing Rapid Syn on non-Centered conditions. Alternatively, if you are really just 1 Rapid Syn away from having a nice 7260+ progress, and you just WANT that Rapid Syn so badly, go and do quality push first, and come back for that Rapid Syn later when Centered is available. You can even fit that Rapid Syn inside/during your Touch Combo, as long as you don't waste your GS. There's really a lot of chances ahead when pushing quality to go back to that Rapid Syn on Centered. DO NOT push that 1 Rapid Syn too hard and break the craft.
(3) Even if failing 5 Rapid Syns in a craft, I am still not giving up just yet. There are soooo many times which I was able to salvage whatever I had and got lucky in the end to finish the craft. This is especially true when Heart&Soul is available, which is super versatile in many ways.
(4) I continue to favor Reflect over MuscleMem, because in MuMe, people's opening usually involves "Vene, Heart&Soul, Intensive Syn" to securely utilize the MuMe buff. If one uses Rapid Syn there, it's way too risky. Alternatively, if one uses WN + Groundwork, it's just way too weak and way too wasteful on CP. So in the end, people with MuMe openings don't have Heart&Soul left after the opener. This is something I don't like. I treasure my Heart&Soul for its versatility during my craft. Sometimes that extra 20 CP makes a hell lot difference, and sometimes an easy double IQ stack acquisition is just amazing, and saves so much work.
(5) When working on quality, it's super important to know how strong each of your touches are towards the end. When you're like 8000+ quality or even 7900+, you need to know how many touches under Innov you need to cross that threshold before the finisher. When quality is around 9000+, and you found that there's just NOT enough CP or durab to cross the threshold, then you need to resort to drastic measures...
E.g. If my finisher can do 3630 quality, then I need to reach the threshold of 13500-3630= 9870 before the finisher. Each of my Basic/Hasty Touch under Innov is 726. If my current quality is 9020, my durab is 25 left, my CP is 92, condition is currently Normal, and I have no Innov buff active yet (and assuming I have no more Careful Obs or Heart&Soul), then my next move is obviously Innov here, because it buffs my next move, and baits for 1 more condition. If I still get a Normal after Innov, I'm quite "fxxked", because I now have only 74 CP, and I can only do "BasicT, GS, Byregot". However, 9020 + 726 = 9746, which is below threshold. If I continue with BasicT, I'm almost surely dead unless I get a lucky Good after GS. So here, instead of relying on praying for that RNG God for a Good in the end, I'd instead, gamble with a Focused Touch (18 CP). Sure, it has only a 50% chance of success, but 50% chances is still better than the chance of a Good showing up before a Byregot. 726 x 1.5 = 1089, and 1089+9020 = 10,109... That will be enough to shoot me over that threshold before my GS, Byregot.
Yes, this is gamble! This is RNG! But this is a SMARTER gamble then praying for a Good condition to come, and that's "gambling skill".
On a good day, I break about 1 craft every 3 to 4 crafts. On a bad day, I can just straight up botch 3 in a row out of 4 attempts. But overall, I'm doing quite well to have at least my mats turning into products.
Prices for these items have come down by quite a lot now. But they are still making reasonably good gil.
Apparently, a lot people still have trouble with these recipes... Some can't do it at all, some are trying hard but only getting 1/10 crafts or something.
In the end, the competition on MB isn't that bad (at least on my world). Some sellers are "multi-world sellers". You can see them having that "Obtaining Signature" sign on their items, and they're selling 1 or 2 per kind of components. It's very obvious that they're selling over a few different worlds to diverse investment and evade from excessive undercutting from a single world. But because of that, they are also not super crazy about undercutting things every 5 min. -
09-13-2022, 04:07 PMJojoyaI wonder what "Obtaining Signature" actually represents now. The Maker's Signature is now retained when moving items between worlds in the same region. I've noticed this when using one character to go on a Aether/Primal shopping spree for items I want on multiple alts then transferring the purchased items to the intended recipient.Quote:
Originally Posted by Caimie_Tsukino
So does Obtaining Signature now represent items being brought over from another region through character transfer? Players who transferred to Materia with their inventory loaded with cheap and useful crafted items may have noticed if the Maker's Signature switched to Obtaining Signature on everything. I'm fairly certain it would also represent items crafted by characters that have seen been deleted.
I try to avoid anything marked Obtaining Signature on the MB when purchasing because my gut feeling is most of it is related to botting shenanigans. Obtaining Signature ends up a nice way to conceal source from legitimate players who have a good idea of who their local bots are. -
09-14-2022, 03:08 PMCaimie_TsukinoHmm, I am not sure what it means then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jojoya
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09-19-2022, 02:48 AMCaimie_TsukinoI recently saw from the MB the retainer who listed the item from "Obtaining Signature", and the crafter's signature changed to an actual player's name. I character-searched the player, and found him/her to be on a totally different data center than mine. So apparently, he/she is a data center hopper (which might explain why the retainer's name contained the word "hopper").Quote:
Originally Posted by Jojoya
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09-22-2022, 01:34 PMNaizakane
Thanks for writing this guide! Unfortunately, it's not helping me very much. Feels like everything I try gets walled out by rng. I'm still trying to apply the guidelines you lay out, but I keep having attempts where I can get within a basic synth of completing but not have the durability/CP to go for IQ stacks, or I get to 10IQ and now I either don't have the durability for the touch combo because the process of getting there had some steps get wasted by rapid syn/hasty touch failures, even with H&S to force a precise touch, or I don't have the CP because I wanted to use master's mend and I've blown all my careful observation charges trying to bait out goods for tricks of the trade so that I can get the CP for it. Or probably the worst scenario, being barely unable to get the 13.5k quality because I ended up reliant on a good because the hasty touch I needed to succeed so the finisher would guarantee that 13.5k rolled wrong. It's feeling less of an impossible task, but my success rate is extremely low because I can't find my way around situations where rng just doesn't want rapid synth to succeed.
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09-23-2022, 08:36 AMCaimie_TsukinoI would avoid Master's Mend and use Manip instead as much as possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Naizakane
The only times I use Master's Mend is I got a really favorable condition at 15 durab or lower, such as a Good, then I'll do Precise Touch and go down to 5 durab, and then recover with a Master's Mend (or if I got a Centered at 15, I'd be happy to Rapid Syn on it, then recover with a Master's Mend too). Otherwise, I tend to use Manip (even on Normal condition) at 20 or 15 durab. Then use Observe to float the durab back up while baiting for conditions.
The purpose of using Careful Obs is indeed to bait for conditions, but you should not hope for a Good. Goods are rare, and one just cannot hope to bait for a Good using any means. Most of the Goods should be utilized for Precise Touch as much as possible. I rarely use Intensive Syn these days as both Centered and Sturdy are sufficient for Rapid Syns under Vene.
If you can record your process of making the item step by step (such as screenshotting each step, and just drop the links here), I'm happy to guide you through the whole craft, and point out what could be done better.
Just today, I had a run of 25 crafts (on the Water Otter Resin), and managed to fail only 5. It was a great run! -
09-23-2022, 09:59 AMdspguy
I'm still all-in on Muscle Memory. The value is too great to pass up. The way I see it, when you use MuMe one of these things happens:
- You end up with 3200-4500/7480 progress done with 24 CP spent and H&S still available (more likely)
- You end up with 2600-3600/7480 progress done with 24 CP spent and no H&S (less likely)
But what seals the deal for me is this:- worst case scenario, you are at 2600/7480 with no H&S available
- or you could spend that H&S afterwards on a Precise Touch and essentially Reflect for just 18 CP extra.
The way I see it any Good used for Precise Touch is essentially Reflect with 50% extra quality thrown in. And it is usable on any step. There is nothing like Muscle Memory. Sure, Intensive Synthesis is nice. But frankly, a Good should rarely be used on Progress. Especially when it is quite possible to be anywhere from 33% to 60% done with Progress in one shot. Goods have more value in exchanging them for 2 IQ stacks at just 10 durability and 18 CP plus the 50% bonus. I can't imagine expending a Good on Intensive Synthesis when I could be getting a 50% bonus on quality with 10 IQ stacks or build IQ stacks.
Rest of the guide is spot on and I love it. The Reflect path obviously works for the OP and considering how much the OP has contributed the community, I have zero doubts it is a viable path. I just think MuMe has its place and I'm mentioning it as an alternative. -
09-24-2022, 08:22 AMLiam_HarperIf it's a bot (not saying that's a definite, just if), then it's generally because the bot mass crafts a huge number of items, then distributes them to retainer alts on multiple worlds to sell. This allows them to sell more items at once to a wider market.Quote:
Originally Posted by Caimie_Tsukino
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10-26-2022, 07:30 AMNaizakane(Sorry for taking so long to reply, my motivation for expert recipes was completely gone when I made the first post)Quote:
Originally Posted by Caimie_Tsukino
I'd like to avoid using Master's Mend, but every time I've used it it's because Manipulation would be a significantly worse deal for me. Situations where in order for the next two steps to not kill the craft, I'd have to use Observe, putting Manip's actual cost to keep the craft alive at 110CP compared to the 88CP Master's Mend would take - part of my brain knows Manipulation would give more durability, but the other part of my brain refuses to waste the extra steps it would take for Manipulation to keep the craft alive. As for Intensive Synth, I feel like I can't afford to give a progress-phase Good over to Precise Touch, as Rapid Synth is simply too unreliable, failing even under Centered. I have to spend Goods on Intensive Synth just to catch up to where I should be, or where I would be if RNG didn't say no to RS succeeding. Careful Obs gets used to bait Goods out at the end of the craft anyway, because I'm taking so long to get to 1 synth from finishing + 10 IQ stacks + the rest of my combo leading up to Byregot's that if I don't have a Good to use Byregot's on then I'm not meeting the quality requirement. I'll follow your suggestion regarding recording the process, and I'll probably get a screenshot album done for you to look at tomorrow. -
10-26-2022, 12:31 PMCaimie_TsukinoNo problem. But just so you know, the gil rush is finished now though. These items have gone down from 3-5 million gil a piece to 200-400K a piece now. The demand is also a lot lower now... Instead of having 10 pops a day (and yes, it was 10 pops a day, each pop 5 mil, so it was easily 50 mil a day), it's only about 2 to 3 pops a day now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Naizakane
Manip will ALWAYS be much, much better than Master's Mend in terms of CP efficiency, even when used without Primed condition. If you're using Manip + Observe, you may be doing it wrong. It sounds to me that you have been using Manip when durab is like 10 or something, which is way too late. Manip is designed to be used when durab is NEITHER max nor min. That is, ideally, your durab should be between 20 and 40 when you activate Manipulation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Naizakane
Manip should NEVER be used when durab is at 10 (unless you got a very lucky Primed, then you do Manip even at 10 durab, and then use Master's Mend after that too).
At 15 durab, Manip usage is not ideal, because you will actually need to use Observe after Manip to ensure you have enough steps afterwards to take advantage of Goods or Centered conditions.
Personally, I'll keep consuming durab and hope for a Primed until durab is down to 20. If the condition is still just Normal, I'll use Manip anyway there.
If a Good suddenly pops at 20 durab, I'd use Precise Touch first, let durab go down to 10, then use Master's Mend, and then repeat the process above by slowly depleting durab, and pray for Primed for a Manip.
Your feeling is understanding since Rapid Syn is extremely unreliable. However, in these Expert Crafts, you need to push the limits to get it done. So if you use up all those Goods on Intensive Syn, what you will likely end up with after reaching near-max progress is a lack of CP and a low number of IQ stacks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Naizakane
My approach is to NOT be stingy about Careful Obs.... By contrast to what you think it does (baiting for Goods), I use Careful Obs excessively for baiting Centered and Sturdy, which have a much higher chance of appearing than Goods. So after I pop Veneration, if the condition is Normal, I do NOT use Rapid Syn. I do Careful Obs, and Careful Obs again, and then Observe... I'll do up to 3 times baiting for Centered and Sturdy before I use Rapid Syn. Sure, you'll burn off the Careful Obs in no time, and when you use Observe instead, it burns 7 CP each time, and also a step of Vene. But all these are still better than doing a straight up Rapid Syn on Normal Condition. Because each time you lose 10 durab and a step of Vene together, it hurts way more than consuming some CP.
I save all Goods for Precise Touches instead of Intensive Syn unless my IQ is already at 9 or more. The 1.5x multiplier on quality from Goods is just too much to give up for together with the double IQ increase advantage. After IQ is maxed out, there's no true needs to use Careful Obs anyway. The entire "Touch Combo" (GS, Innov, Obs, FocT, PrudT, PruT) is designed so that every step is a baiting step for a Good. So there's no need to use Careful Obs for baiting Goods. Note that I rarely use "PruT, PruT" these days anymore, as CP is so tight. So if I do have a Careful Obs left, I'd gladly use there to bait for a Centered or Sturdy... surely if a Good pops, I wouldn't use it on the Precise Touch either. If durab is not a concern, I'd even do "BasicT, StandardT" in place of the PruT, PruT... really depends on the need...
Good on a Byregot is a very, very rare thing even if you bait. I wouldn't use it as a frequent strategy.... It's more of a last resort strategy. With the "Touch Combo" baiting Goods every step, it has a much higher chance of getting a Good than trying to get a Good on the Byregot. -
10-27-2022, 06:28 AMNaizakaneOh that's alright with me, as long as I stay above 30 million I'm fine with missing out. Already have my medium, so any reason I have to make more gil would be to meet the costs of upgrading crafter/gatherer gear and keeping enough on hand to enter a lottery in the case my dream plot opens up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Caimie_Tsukino
Ah, that's what I was doing wrong? I was going down to 10 because I thought Manip should only be used at the last possible step if I can't get any Primed steps on the way down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Caimie_Tsukino
I didn't think to use Careful Obs to bait conditions outside of Goods for Byregot. I suppose I should be more willing to use those and regular Observe in the progress phase, but at the time it didn't feel like a good idea because of the extremely slim margin of error I had - things were either perfect or unsuccessful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Caimie_Tsukino
I was going to do a practice craft today, but I went to look at your guide again to refresh my memory and the site is down. -
10-27-2022, 08:20 AMCaimie_Tsukino
The entire ffxivrealm is dead. But I have uploaded a PDF version of it. Please see the bottom part of the first post of the thread. Thanks.