Foreign Invasion

Has the void ever mounted a large scale attack on the Source on it's own?

See lots of cases throughout history where they were summoned to attack. Or people on this side made deals to bring them. But as far as I know they lack the power to open portals and come over on their own. The Source has to initiate contact.

In which case...

Are we justified in going over there, killing what is going to end up being a shit ton of them along with their leaders, only to rescue a single POW of an alien race that does not even belong on our own world in the first place?

The void is a bad place. Not going to defend that. But it is THEIR place.

Its ok when the Scions and WoL are doing it

It's unlikely it's going to be just for the sake of Azdaja as there's a bigger endgame at play that Golbez has only vaguely hinted at still but likely has repercussions for the whole of the 13th and possibly the Source as well.

A lot of the War of the Magi is a mystery, but one of the few things that we know wasn't was that Diabolos was manipulating Mhach and pulling the strings to get himself more power; part of this was deliberately teaching them how to seal Scathach wrong so that he'd be able to consume her. Amdapor kinda threw some wrenches into that plan, but that means that yes, we know that there's at least one instance of voidsent staging an attack on the Source of their own initiative, and it's in a context where it's unclear how big such an attack could have been. Maybe it was Diabolos as a lone but powerful agent, maybe he had a whole damn faction.

Combining that with the fact we know for a certainty that Golbez is angling for an attack on the Source, that would make going to the Void to kick Golbez's army in the teeth something roughly equivalent to when we liberated Ala Mhigo. The fact that they're not attacking us at scale literally right now doesn't mitigate the facts at hand that:

1. They have done so before,
2. They clearly have intention to do so again, and would like to do so sooner rather than later,
3. And that they aren't exactly creating a state of affairs in their homeland that the public like.

Point three makes intervening a liberation mission, while points one and two make it a proactive defense. And of course then there's Azdaja making it a rescue mission, too, and which one of those three it is probably differs depending on which member of our group you ask.

Necrotica's going to pretend some or all of these aren't legitimate points to keep being angrily contrary and desperately trying to find an angle for 'the WoL is baaaaaad', but I'm not stating this for her, I'm stating this for anyone else who happens to be here and thinking about this: yeah, it's not exactly worse than what we did in Stormblood. Probably better, actually, depending on if you think Zenos was a better ruler of Ala Mhigo than Golbez is of voidsent.

They got a loved one hostage, u do what it takes for your loved ones, even if it's not your loved one but one of your friends loved ones, cause that friend is a loved one.

Besides that place is ran so horribly it could benefit from an invasion, it ain't like we'd make it worse, knowing us we'd probably save it like we did the 1st.

Also, I recall the whole reason Azdaja was lost in the Void in the first place was because the Allag under Xande had opened massive gates to the Void as part of their pact with the Cloud of Darkness to aid them in vanquishing the Mercaydians (Azdaja flying into it to try and close it from the other side), so I think it's very much a yes that the Void can and will invade the Source if given the chance, especially as many voidsent are reduced to a single minded "consume aether" state due to aether starvation and the chance to consume an entire world of aether is too appealing.

The only reason they haven't since the Allag's days is due to the Voidgates that have appeared after the Allag's fall being generally too small and unstable to let much voidsent through, and even then only low tier ones, and usually singularly, even the one we've just brute-forced open in Alzadaal's Legacy - there are exceptions to that though - just prior to the Seventh Calamity for instance Atomoses were materializing above aetherytes throughout Eorzea, deaspecting the aetherytes and turning them orange, allowing them to disgorge hundreds of Voidsent that would swarm the surrounding area - after Dalamud fell though, they disappeared.

But it remains to be seen if Golbez's 'crusade' is indeed a planned invasion of the Source - definetely the hints are there.

Sufficiently powerful Voidsent can't cross natural dimensional fissures and they are by nature chaotic creatures, so Voidsent have never launched a full-scale attack on the Source. (May or may not change depending on Golbez' plans.)

Voidsent adhere to the rule of power; if we're able to take what we want, we're wholly justified in so doing by their standards. I don't think they much care.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cilia

Sufficiently powerful Voidsent can't cross natural dimensional fissures and they are by nature chaotic creatures, so Voidsent have never launched a full-scale attack on the Source. (May or may not change depending on Golbez' plans.)

Voidsent adhere to the rule of power; if we're able to take what we want, we're wholly justified in so doing by their standards. I don't think they much care.

---

I would LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE it if the WoL lived by that rule going forward.

EDIT: I am fine with us going invading conquerors so longs as we keep that mindset with all people we encounter going forward.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Necrotica

I would LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE it if the WoL lived by that rule going forward.

EDIT: I am fine with us going invading conquerors so longs as we keep that mindset with all people we encounter going forward.

---

Except that's not what we're there for. We're there on a search and rescue mission; the fact we're attacked the instant we step through the portal isn't our fault.

"Might makes right" is their rule, not ours. The ones that recognize trying to make a meal of us is a losing prospect don't attack and are left in peace. We're there to find and rescue Azdaja, not kill Voidsent or conquer their territory.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cilia

Except that's not what we're there for. We're there on a search and rescue mission; the fact we're attacked the instant we step through the portal isn't our fault.

"Might makes right" is their rule, not ours. The ones that recognize trying to make a meal of us is a losing prospect don't attack and are left in peace. We're there to find and rescue Azdaja, not kill Voidsent or conquer their territory.

---

since golbez is seen as the pinnacle of the void i wonder whatll happen after we beat him.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sidurgu-12

since golbez is seen as the pinnacle of the void i wonder whatll happen after we beat him.

---

We'll turn into ExDeath and begin obsessing over the Void.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sidurgu-12

since golbez is seen as the pinnacle of the void i wonder whatll happen after we beat him.

---

Nothing much I presume, at least, from a political perspective - Zero explained that after the Flood of Darkness sentinent Voidsent formed their own political affiliations and groupings much like how they were as mortals, and we've seen this with Troia (clearly all the Voidsent there were Beatrice's retainers and subjects from before the Flood of Darkness, Beatrice herself being Troia's ruler before the Flood), and why Zero's Domain exists as a sanctuary for voidsent - those unaffiliated with any other group or those that simply do not wish to fight and kill anymore and just want to be left alone.

And then of course there was the Cloud of Darkness and her group, until we disposed of her, which seems to explain why Golbez and the Archfiends have now risen up, they seem to have filled in the power vacuum in the wake of the Cloud of Darkness's defeat, and seems to be wanting to hammer all other Voidsent under his banner under a "Join me or die" ultimatum. Of course, he hasn't accomplished that yet, but his defeat would probably not cause that great an issue among Voidsent, but things will continue politically as they always have - canis canis edit is the rule of survival in the Void, and Golbez's defeat would simply usher in smaller voidsent groups fighting one another, in keeping with the Void's chaotic nature.

It seems clear that there are a large number of Voidsent who would/have, given the opportunity, launched an attack against the Source.

That said we are not invading the Void, nor are we bringing in armies nor colonising any of their land. Think of us as a small but powerful away team. It should also be noted that so far we did not instigate any of the fights, we defended ourselves and only killed when needed (Plus before we partnered with Zero we where not really killing them, given how death has no real meaning in the Thirteenth) The only reason we fought against the arcfiends was because they either attacked us, or hunted us out in particular. Plus the Dragons may not be from our Star, but that does not mean they should not be able to call it home or that we should leave one imprisoned and in pain. These dragons where actually born on Etheirys after all, and home is where the heart is… or eye, given how easy it is for them to just pluck one out and put it elsewhere.

As for what will happen if we do topple Golbez, I think a new faction will just take over, assuming that is that the Void is not changed in any meaningful way. Power and hierarchy seems to be their way, and whilst I expect a bloody battle to see who is the strongest, a new group would take Golbez’s place.

I am looking forward to the Cloud's return. She was not crystallized and has had plenty of time to gather her strength again.

Unless of course they just ignored that plot point.

Would be such an incredible waste though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Necrotica

I am looking forward to the Cloud's return. She was not crystallized and has had plenty of time to gather her strength again.

Unless of course they just ignored that plot point.

Would be such an incredible waste though.

---

I don't think they ignored it. Zero mentions, and I quote:

The more you devour, the more powerful you grow. But in the process, your essence is blended with those of your prey.

If you were to lose your flesh, the souls you had come to harbor may break free and coalesce into distinct voidsent once more.

And before you yourself return, your own soul might be devoured by your enemies or your erstwhile prey. A fate more likely for stronger beings, who require more time to regenerate.
However, even assuming you survive the process, it's highly uncommon to return as you were.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cilia

Sufficiently powerful Voidsent can't cross natural dimensional fissures and they are by nature chaotic creatures, so Voidsent have never launched a full-scale attack on the Source. (May or may not change depending on Golbez' plans.)

Voidsent adhere to the rule of power; if we're able to take what we want, we're wholly justified in so doing by their standards. I don't think they much care.

---

Keep in mind, however, that most voidsent worth their salt are manipulative as all hell. Just because they can't open the door themselves, doesn't mean they can't get someone else to do it for them under false pretenses. Which is what Diabolos did, and is basically the core skillset of succubi.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Necrotica

I am looking forward to the Cloud's return. She was not crystallized and has had plenty of time to gather her strength again.

Unless of course they just ignored that plot point.

Would be such an incredible waste though.

---

Considering we see the Cloud regenerate in the cutscene immediately after her defeat in the World of Darkness raid, we know she can pull herself back together quickly. On the other hand, if portals to the Void match up in geographical distances on the Source, then the Cloud of Darkness's domain may be a fair distance away from Troia. She could be out there somewhere and we just have no reason to go there. We were only supposed to be looking for Azdaja, encountering Scarmiglione and pissing off Golbez was entirely coincidental.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cleretic

Keep in mind, however, that most voidsent worth their salt are manipulative as all hell. Just because they can't open the door themselves, doesn't mean they can't get someone else to do it for them under false pretenses. Which is what Diabolos did, and is basically the core skillset of succubi.

---

It makes me wonder if that Voidsent we're helping make whole again has ulterior motives, but I'm guessing it's being truthful.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Considering we see the Cloud regenerate in the cutscene immediately after her defeat in the World of Darkness raid, we know she can pull herself back together quickly. On the other hand, if portals to the Void match up in geographical distances on the Source, then the Cloud of Darkness's domain may be a fair distance away from Troia. She could be out there somewhere and we just have no reason to go there. We were only supposed to be looking for Azdaja, encountering Scarmiglione and pissing off Golbez was entirely coincidental.

---

Since we are already making deals with Zero and other Voidsent, we could in theory cut a deal with the Cloud to work against Golbez. Assuming she isn't holding a grudge.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Necrotica

Since we are already making deals with Zero and other Voidsent, we could in theory cut a deal with the Cloud to work against Golbez. Assuming she isn't holding a grudge.

---

And assuming Golbez didn't eat her soul for his power (which WOULD explain why he's so powerful).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

And assuming Golbez didn't eat her soul for his power (which WOULD explain why he's so powerful).

---

if he really was on

the moon then im guessing his power might be from zodiark.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by myahele

It makes me wonder if that Voidsent we're helping make whole again has ulterior motives, but I'm guessing it's being truthful.

---

Honestly, the game rarely if ever has someone outright lying to us without significant signposting that they're being dishonest about it, because 'characters telling us stuff' is their main way of laying down new information. The Hecteye's most likely being truthful about his motives because, if he wasn't, then that would call everything he told us into question, which would then render all of his info about Scarmiglione and Barbariccia basically meaningless. And since his main purpose is to tell us that info, well, that character's suddenly mostly meaningless, isn't he?

I don't think they necessarily do this well every time, because sometimes the character they have give us the infodumps is confirmed by the game to be a massive liar in other contexts; how could we trust Emet-Selch to be telling the truth about Zodiark, Hydaelyn and Amaurot in Shadowbringers when his entire presence in the game world outside of talking to us was 'assuming a false identity and lying to an entire nation for his own ends'? But ultimately, that's just how it is. If someone tells us something and the game isn't suggesting they're lying about exactly that in the very same scene, the thing we're being told is probably legit, because it would usually be quite boring to seek out corroborating sources.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Necrotica

Are we justified in going over there, killing what is going to end up being a shit ton of them along with their leaders, only to rescue a single POW of an alien race that does not even belong on our own world in the first place?

The void is a bad place. Not going to defend that. But it is THEIR place.

---

We dont harm those that dont attack us, we only defend ourselves from those that do. Golbez could have easily sent the dragon to us and we would have probably just left and be done with it. But instead they are right away trying to kill us.

And we know from those "meanwhile" cutscenes that Golbez plans to start a war. Of course our character doesnt know that yet, but again we also would not attack the voidsent if they left us alone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alleo

We dont harm those that dont attack us, we only defend ourselves from those that do. Golbez could have easily sent the dragon to us and we would have probably just left and be done with it. But instead they are right away trying to kill us.

And we know from those "meanwhile" cutscenes that Golbez plans to start a war. Of course our character doesnt know that yet, but again we also would not attack the voidsent if they left us alone.

---

Why do we have meanwhile scenes at all? Just have us using the echo.

More and more it seems the writers regret having the echo be a thing and are trying to figure out what to do with it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Necrotica

Why do we have meanwhile scenes at all? Just have us using the echo.

More and more it seems the writers regret having the echo be a thing and are trying to figure out what to do with it.

---

The echo literally does not work like that. At least the WoL's echo. The WoL sees into the past, why on earth would they retcon that into anything other than that? They utilize the WoL's echo many times, to show us past scenes that happened.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MilkieTea

The echo literally does not work like that. At least the WoL's echo. The WoL sees into the past, why on earth would they retcon that into anything other than that? They utilize the WoL's echo many times, to show us past scenes that happened.

---

The past includes 30 seconds ago.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Necrotica

The past includes 30 seconds ago.

---

it only works when we're near the thing that triggers it. so while we can see golbez through Scarmigliones crystal i dont think the echo could replace the meanwhile sections.

The WoL sees into the past based on stimuli and aetheric traces, as far as we can tell. They wouldn't have been privvy to a 'Meanwhile' going on in Garlemald, featuring characters they either haven't seen in ages or haven't even met in the first place.

It would also twist and reshape the story in a way that doesn't necessarily help at all. 'Meanwhile' scenes are a way to keep us the player up to date on what's happening while our character is busy doing something else, to let us know that things we aren't there for aren't just in stasis. It also helps to give pretense and context to big characters the WoL hasn't met yet, so that they don't come out of nowhere when we do meet them; Emet, Fantastic Dan, Zero, and Golbez are all characters that got and used that little head-start, and the scenes are almost all at the end of a patch specifically to work with that load; it's a cliffhanger that we as players know but our character doesn't, and so can't do anything about, making for a natural stopping point.

Making them Echo flashes would change that primarily by making the WoL aware of and capable of acting on them. Could you make a good story out of that? Absolutely, and other stories have worked well off similar ideas. But it doesn't really work for the game we are playing, because it immediately turns the 'Meanwhile' scenes into actionable evidence. They can't be a floating unresolved cliffhanger while the WoL and their friends do something else; instead they're now actionable evidence that they have to act on, and as a result kinda have to be moved to the start of the a content load rather than the end, because then reasonably speaking the next step is 'do something abut the fact there's an Ascian with Varis'.

And then to take the repercussions further, the fact that you've taken away the main approach to cliffhangers and are now being more reactive to these flashes means the story has to be much more episodic in structure. We also need to make the flashes less accurate; if they're the impetus for the immediate story, we can no longer build on them iteratively to make something unique, so to avoid them being too predictable we have to be sure they're missing vital context.

And finally, in following all the necessary readjustments to the story we need to make the 'Meanwhile' scenes an observable event, we have somehow reinvented That's So Raven.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Necrotica

Are we justified in going over there, killing what is going to end up being a shit ton of them along with their leaders, only to rescue a single POW of an alien race that does not even belong on our own world in the first place?

---

If Azdaja was just "an alien" that we have no loyalty to, then we probably wouldn't be intervening.

But she's not just an alien; she's our friend's sister and he is desperate to save her.

Also, how many thousands of years do they have to live on Etheirys before they're allowed to be considered as "belonging" to the place? They hatched here. It's their home.

Edit to add: Also, phrasing it as "going over there to kill loads of them to rescue a prisoner" makes it sound like the killing is a core part of our intent. We just want to rescue Azdaja and get out of there, and if we could have done it without disrupting any of the locals, we probably would.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Necrotica

Why do we have meanwhile scenes at all? Just have us using the echo.

---

Others have covered why it can't just be a direct Echo vision – things need to be shown to the player that the character is not aware of.

Still, I have wondered if you could wrangle those kinds of scenes as "an Echo that the WoL witnessed much later after it ceased to be relevant, rearranged into chronological order for better storytelling".

The Warrior of Light's usage and skill in the Echo in universe can be more or less summed up as: "This power of mine responds to a need, not a desire."

I'd have thought the likelihood of us ever truly becoming "proficient" in the Echo was made clear when in the tail end of Stormblood the most we could do with it after all that we'd been though up to that point was a shitty bubble shield made of equally thin and insubstantial aether. But, that's what you get when your dear Mother Sunders every soul in the world without consent. Humanity becomes collectively less awesome.

Edit: Also, most of the "cooler" powers and abilities we'd seen the Echo facilitate up to that point are abilities seen as "evil" by the bumbling populace, like Ascian body-surfing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SentioftheHoukai

The Warrior of Light's usage and skill in the Echo in universe can be more or less summed up as: "This power of mine responds to a need, not a desire."

I'd have thought the likelihood of us ever truly becoming "proficient" in the Echo was made clear when in the tail end of Stormblood the most we could do with it after all that we'd been though up to that point was a shitty bubble shield made of equally thin and insubstantial aether. But, that's what you get when your dear Mother Sunders every soul in the world without consent. Humanity becomes collectively less awesome.

Edit: Also, most of the "cooler" powers and abilities we'd seen the Echo facilitate up to that point are abilities seen as "evil" by the bumbling populace, like Ascian body-surfing.

---

are you talking about the fight against lakshmi with fordolas help? if so that was the travelers ward in action.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sidurgu-12

are you talking about the fight against lakshmi with fordolas help? if so that was the travelers ward in action.

---

How weird, then. Thought that was Mother's magic, not ours. Smells me a RETCON, I do. No really, actually go back and watch the scene. We put our hand up in an awesome power pose and everything. It was clearly intended to appear as though we were directing the flow of the aether off our unshielded comrades. This "Traveler's Ward" you speak of is not our magick, and cast on us without our foreknowledge or consent. Hardly something we have acute control over.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SentioftheHoukai

How weird, then. Thought that was Mother's magic, not ours. Smells me a RETCON, I do. No really, actually go back and watch the scene. We put our hand up in an awesome power pose and everything. It was clearly intended to appear as though we were directing the flow of the aether off our unshielded comrades. This "Traveler's Ward" you speak of is not our magick, and cast on us without our foreknowledge or consent. Hardly something we have acute control over.

---

Wait wait wait wait wait.

What if it WAS the echo this whole time protecting us?
Venat could have been lying. Taking credit for something she did not do in order to try and make us more indebted to her.
Her travelers ward could be a kind of aether protector. And the echo could be a super ultra better version of that.

We show up wearing a suit of armor and she hands us a paper hat and claims that is what was protecting us all this time.

Beyond parody at this point.

It's just vague what's doing what until Venat tells us verbatim in Endwalker, not really retconning anything. Ifrit attributes our immunity to tempering to the Blessing, but everyone else says it's the Echo (likely because they don't know any better). Raises the question of how Resonance works, but.

The PC isn't actively controlling the Blessing, Echo, or flow of aether during the Lakshmi scene(s). They're just standing between the tempering blasts and letting it bounce off of them.

You're trying a bit too hard.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cilia

It's just vague what's doing what until Venat tells us verbatim in Endwalker, not really retconning anything. Ifrit attributes our immunity to tempering to the Blessing, but everyone else says it's the Echo (likely because they don't know any better). Raises the question of how Resonance works, but.

The PC isn't actively controlling the Blessing, Echo, or flow of aether during the Lakshmi scene(s). They're just standing between the tempering blasts and letting it bounce off of them.

You're trying a bit too hard.

---

i dont think they know how to do it any other way.

The complete retcon of the Echo/Blessing is in no way reaching. It was blatant and pointless and was only done to make mommy Venat more awesome and cool.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Necrotica

The complete retcon of the Echo/Blessing is in no way reaching. It was blatant and pointless and was only done to make mommy Venat more awesome and cool.

---

The Echo is a 20% mitigation. The Blessing of Light is a 30% mitigation. They're stacking for a 44% mitigation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cilia

It's just vague what's doing what until Venat tells us verbatim in Endwalker, not really retconning anything. Ifrit attributes our immunity to tempering to the Blessing, but everyone else says it's the Echo (likely because they don't know any better). Raises the question of how Resonance works, but.

---

The effects of the Echo and Blessing definitely got retconned/reversed/forgotten-and-reassigned somewhere between Heavensward and Endwalker.

Midgardsormr sealed the Blessing of Light and apparently left us with only the Echo, which apparently stopped Hydaelyn from speaking to us, but we were still shielded from primal influence.

From the same era, the first lorebook seems to attribute most of our powers to the Echo while linking the Blessing to receiving direct contact or power-ups from Hydaelyn, like being shielded from Ultima.

That said, I don't see how reversing them makes Venat look any better than leaving them as they were earlier established. It seems more likely that they somehow forgot that they had established the difference already, because it seems too big a thing to deliberately rewrite.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cilia

It's just vague what's doing what until Venat tells us verbatim in Endwalker, not really retconning anything. Ifrit attributes our immunity to tempering to the Blessing, but everyone else says it's the Echo (likely because they don't know any better). Raises the question of how Resonance works, but.

The PC isn't actively controlling the Blessing, Echo, or flow of aether during the Lakshmi scene(s). They're just standing between the tempering blasts and letting it bounce off of them.

You're trying a bit too hard.

---

No, I'm not. They made it clear this situation was unprecedented, if it wasn't we would have shielded the innocent soldiers behind us all the way back when we fought Ifrit simply by virtue of having been stood in front of them. If you were right about us simply standing in front of those we sought to protect from Lakshmi's tempering, that is. You are the one who is making a mistake or forgetting details.