Expert Recipes for 6.2

Just curious if anyone else has given them a try yet and what your impressions are.

The recipes are for the items needed to purchase the permit for the Water Otter Fountain Landmark for Island Sanctuary (requires 2 each of Lumber, Resin and Hardware). The items can be sold on the marketboard, though not the permit itself.

Craftsmanship required to attempt the recipes is 3700 (same as Rinascita) and 13500 out of a possible 13620 rating is needed to complete synthesis.

Conditions I've seen while messing with trial synthesis:
Good
Centered
Malleable
Sturdy
Primed

Unless I've had some really terrible RNG on conditions, it appears that Pliant is not available for these.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Just curious if anyone else has given them a try yet and what your impressions are.

The recipes are for the items needed to purchase the permit for the Water Otter Fountain Landmark for Island Sanctuary (requires 2 each of Lumber, Resin and Hardware). The items can be sold on the marketboard, though not the permit itself.

Craftsmanship required to attempt the recipes is 3700 (same as Rinascita) and 13500 out of a possible 13620 rating is needed to complete synthesis.

Conditions I've seen while messing with trial synthesis:
Good
Centered
Malleable
Sturdy
Primed

Unless I've had some really terrible RNG on conditions, it appears that Pliant is not available for these.

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Yes, I have been crafting these in the past 2 days... still getting the hang of it, testing different ways, and trying to develop some new guidelines for myself to follow.
But so far, it's been very RNG-oriented, since Pliant is no longer available. My success rate is only about 50-60% despite adding more melds to reach my max stats potentials.
I'll come back to this thread to discuss more about it after more experimenting.

First of all, for those who don't know, one can check what conditions are available for a Master Recipe by right-clicking the recipe, and select "Potential Condition List":
https://i.imgur.com/j3sddqq.jpg

Now, so far... I've had many successes...
https://i.imgur.com/WI7hYEG.jpg

I've had many painful failures...
https://i.imgur.com/BkBvgcD.jpg

I've had close shaves, where my quality was barely just beyond the required amount...
https://i.imgur.com/iiXhPDg.jpg

I've had desperation runs, but eventually dragged on and came back from hell...
https://i.imgur.com/Mkw0fOZ.jpg
*Note that I ran dry with CP, but came back with some lucky Tricks of Trades, and then finally GS-Innov, and baited with an Observe, before getting a Byregot on Good...

And I've also had my fair share of wealth...
https://i.imgur.com/wTJ8iMM.jpg

From what I have learned... these are the general strategies:
(1) I now prefer Reflect over Muscle Mem. I know many will disagree with me, but my impression is that MuMe+Vene+Groundwork doesn't provide that much progress anyway. I have even tried using MuMe+Vene+WN+ multiple Groundworks, and it's just blowing CP without doing very much. You will still end up with a lot of Rapid Syn anyway. So I prefer to just use Reflect to immediately secure 2 IQ stacks instead.
(2) Since there's no more Pliant, Manip should ideally be used when Primed is active.
(3) Ideally, Vene should be used when Primed is active. However, if Manip is not active yet, prioritize the Manip on the Primed over Vene.
(4) Ideally, Rapid Syn should be used when Centered is active. In fact, prioritize the use of Rapid Syn over Hasty Touch whenever Centered pops up. Because my strategy relies on successful Rapid Syn. It is CP-free, and it's still pretty strong even when naked without Vene.
(5) Ideally, Hasty should be used when Sturdy or Centered is active. This is for building up IQ stacks. But if progress isn't maxed yet, save the Centered for Rapid Syn instead.
(6) In the beginning phase, when Good condition appears, it's better to use it on Precise Touch. If you have Vene active, you can use it on Intensive Syn. But sometimes, even so, I'll still do Precise Touch. Most of the times, Precise Touch just can't be wrong.

This is my "rotation"... or more like the "flow" of my reactions to different conditions:
(1) Right after using Reflect at the very beginning, the "condition game" is on! If I get Sturdy, I'll use Hasty Touch. If I get Centered, I'll use a naked Rapid Syn. If I get Primed, I use Manip. If I get Malleable, I'll Rapid Syn. If I get nothing, I either go Vene or use Observe to bait.
(2) If I baited 2 times and still nothing happens, I give up, and use Vene.
(3) After Vene is active, I'll spam Rapid Syn until Vene expires. However, if Good happens, I look at my Vene stack, and choose between Precise Touch and Intensive Syn. If my Vene has plenty of steps left, I'll go Precise. If my Vene stack isn't that many, I'll do Intensive Syn.
(4) If Vene is active, and a Malleable pops, I may use Heart & Soul + Intensive Syn.
(5) Final Appraisal before the last synthesis is a very common thing. Depending on the need, I may supplement with weaker but more secure synthesis towards the end of the progress bar.
(6) If my durab is running low, but no Primed pops, I either do Observe or Careful Observation (Delineation required) to bait for conditions.
(7) If baiting fails after 2 or 3 tries, I'll give up and just do Manip anyway.
(8) Sometimes, IQ stacks maxes out before progress (if a lot of Goods were used on Precise), but sometimes progress maxes out before IQ stack (if a lot of Rapid Syn lands on Centered).
(9) If I am at IQ8, and if Heart & Soul is still available, I may use it for a Precise Touch to get IQ10 directly.
(10) After progress and IQ stack are maxed, then I work on the quality bar. Maxing of the quality bar is all about LEVERAGING!!! There is NO WAY for anyone to straight up push quality to max with just Innov+Prud spam or Innov+Trained Finesse spam. Those are out of the question, because you get almost no leverage. One must BAIT for Good conditions to leverage quality. Back in ShB, the way I "bait" for Goods was to do my "Touch Combo", which consists of "GS, Innov, Observe, FocusT, PrudT, PrudT". If a Good pops up at any given step, I would be able to leverage the quality, e.g. after GS, if Good pops, I go Precise; after GS,Innov, if Good pops, I go Preparatory Touch; after GS,Innov,Obs, if Good pops, I go Prep Touch; after GS,Innov,Obs,FocT, if Good pops before any of the 2 PrudT, I go Precise. The "GS" serves as a very important action to DOUBLE your gain from the Good condition. When you line it up with Innov, and if a Good pops and you use a strong touch, it has a superior multiplier effect. And that's how one can "leverage" quality increase.
(11) Before the Touch Combo, if Primed is up, I'd use Innov first before the GS. This way, I'd gain more Innov stacks for whatever touches to use.
(12) If I used Innov on a Primed, and so I ended up with many Innov steps after GS,Obs,FocT, I'd use GS,Obs,FocT again instead of Prudent Touches x3, because it has more leveraging potentials, and consumes 5 less durab.
(13) Now in Endwalker, apart from the "Touch combo" mentioned above, we do have another way to push quality steadily, and that is to use the "Basic/Standard/Advanced Touch combo" (BSA combo). So e.g. if I have plenty of durability (Manip is active, and current durab is higher than 25), but CP is not enough for a big "Touch Combo", I may resort to Innov, and then BSA combo. It doesn't have much leverage potentials, but the combo itself is pretty powerful under Innov. It is also flexible with Goods on every step, which can be used for either Precise or Trick of Trades. So this is certainly a valid combo if you don't have enough CP for a Touch Combo.
(14) CP is often an issue after IQ and progress are maxed. Heart & Soul can be used as a source of 20 CP sometimes. If I still have around 300 CP with me after maxing IQ and progress, and having some Manip steps active, then I'm usually in a pretty good position. If I am around 200 CP at that stage, I know I'm in trouble.

My strategy is probably not the best... I have only about 50-60% success rate so far. I'm killing about 2 crafts in every 5 to 6 crafts. I've had success streaks of 4s, but I've also had failure streaks of 3s. RNG still dictates a lot of things. But at least this strategy seems viable to me in making these items.

I had moderate success with Muscle Memory first. However, I can appreciate the strategy Caimie recommends. The way I see it is that you won't succeed 100% of the time. I'd rather find that out on Step 6 rather than on Step 50. With Reflect, you can continue the synth for a while even if it is doomed to failure. With Muscle Memory, you know that if you don't land a Rapid Synthesis in that window, you should just quit.

I'm having a hard time getting my strategy into words. Maybe I'll see if I can do that later.

Edit: I started writing it up. It make sense to me but I think anyone else would have their eyes just gloss over in confusion and boredom.

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Originally Posted by dspguy

I had moderate success with Muscle Memory first. However, I can appreciate the strategy Caimie recommends. The way I see it is that you won't succeed 100% of the time. I'd rather find that out on Step 6 rather than on Step 50. With Reflect, you can continue the synth for a while even if it is doomed to failure. With Muscle Memory, you know that if you don't land a Rapid Synthesis in that window, you should just quit.

I'm having a hard time getting my strategy into words. Maybe I'll see if I can do that later.

Edit: I started writing it up. It make sense to me but I think anyone else would have their eyes just gloss over in confusion and boredom.

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I'm still starting with Muscle Memory myself. I did try Reflect for a while but it was just as frustrating because it still meant needing to hit the right RNG on Rapid Synth.

But I'm not trying to get a Rapid Synth to proc during Muscle Memory anymore. It's too likely to fail. I'm using Heart and Soul for Intensive Synthesis since that's almost as effective while being a guarantee. I wait on it at first to see if I can get a Malleable to appear; if it doesn't then I use H&S-IS on the last stack of Muscle Memory. I tend to get enough Goods that I don't feel a need to save H&S for a Precise Touch, and I think I've only had one failed effort where having H&S available for Tricks at the end would have made a difference.

Just some numbers for comparison using 3700 Craftsmanship:
1 - MM + RS + Malleable = 3726 of 7480 progress (requires 4 RS(FA) + BS to finish progress)
2 - MM + RS = 2691 of 7480 progress (requires 5 RS(FA) + BS to finish progress)
3 - MM + IS(H&S) + Malleable = 3105 of 7480 progress (requires 4 RS (no FA) + BS to finish progress)
4 - MM + IS(H&S) = 2277 of 7480 progress (requires 5 RS (no FA) + BS to finish progress)
5 - Starting with Reflect requires 7 RS (no FA) + BS to finish.

Craftsmanship would need to be at least 3907 to drop a RS from the first 2 examples.

Considering pairing RS with Malleable means no Centered to increase success of RS, using IS seems the smarter way to go. It's not going to change the end number of synthesis steps needed and might even save a failed RS step. If a Good comes up while MM is active, you'd have the option of going direct to IS and saving H&S for a Precise Touch or Tricks later.

Using MM compared to Reflect seems comparable and more a matter of personal taste. The additional RS needed when using Reflect offsets the advantage gained by starting with 2 IQ stacks.

My big problem is the RS RNG. I feel like I get the 60% on Hasty Touch as intended so I'm good with that. RS success feels much lower than the 50% it's supposed to be. Even if I use RS on Centered, I'm not getting the 75% success I should.

That's a good analysis.

I just like knowing if my synth has a chance of succeeding by the time MuMe is done. I mostly tried to land MuMe with Veneration up in that window. If I'm lucky and get a Malleable, I tended to H&S with Intensive Synthesis. However, sometimes I'd just pull the trigger on RS if Centered came up first.

I've come to realize that I know next to nothing on how to optimally craft without a macro. I can't even get close to reaching the require quality without running out of CP, much less both Quality and Progress.
My stats are 3783 Craftsman, 3738 Control, 588 CP without food or pots but with Specialist. What are people using for food and pots, and is there a good way to learn what skills are priority with the different conditions? Like, is there a flow chart or something? I'm not even doing this to make gil, I just want to help my FC mates get their fountains going.

caimie explained her thought flow above, read that. the game tells you what each condition does as well.

Tsai tou vounou is still the food that gives control and you'll want as much as you can so that, and CP draught to help you with any extra moves you can squeeze in.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Caimie_Tsukino

And I've also had my fair share of wealth...

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It always amazes me how prices are so much more expensive on NA/EU. 500k gather mats one and 1m fishing mats on my server.

Good guide, nothing I can add! I just wish all master book crafting was like this!

O yea worst part is catching 2 fish in window, 2-4 mats and failing all but 1! love it really!

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Originally Posted by Amelimie

It always amazes me how prices are so much more expensive on NA/EU. 500k gather mats one and 1m fishing mats on my server.

Good guide, nothing I can add! I just wish all master book crafting was like this!

O yea worst part is catching 2 fish in window, 2-4 mats and failing all but 1! love it really!

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Thanks. I am drafting a step-by-step guide for this kind of Expert Recipes though, to help more people learn.
But this will take a little while since Sept is here, and there's a lot of RL work to do...

Hi and thanks for your guideful words Caimie. But i want to ask something about your rotation. I have tried your rotation and didnt get any success, probably did something wrong. What should i do if my rapid synthesses go fizzle many time at the beginning. Should i use veneration again and go for Rapid syn again? But this time my durability makes big problem even while using manipulation.

My second problem is, sometimes my progress goes nicely but this time i have a problem with my IQ stacks. What should i do if i have max Progress but low stacks?

Third and last problem is when i have max prog and stacks, i try to make your big touch combo but sometimes durability makes problem again... Would you want to explain a bit more please? Sorry if im bothering you :/

Hey, its not much a rotation, its using right actions for each rng condition. Use trail synth to get use to it. I think 50% fail rate on trial should mean ready to do real, also is no rush take time. Good luck!

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Originally Posted by Clairdetsuki

Hi and thanks for your guideful words Caimie. But i want to ask something about your rotation. I have tried your rotation and didnt get any success, probably did something wrong. What should i do if my rapid synthesses go fizzle many time at the beginning. Should i use veneration again and go for Rapid syn again? But this time my durability makes big problem even while using manipulation.:/

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In my experience, when learning how to do these synths, keep going even if your Rapid Syntheses are failing. However, in practice... I like to know if my synth is going to fail early on. I use Muscle Memory and look to couple it with any combination of Veneration, Malleable and Centered. I fire off a Rapid Synthesis the first time I have any combination of those up. And if another Malleable Centered or Sturdy shows up after the Muscle Memory buff is down but Veneration is still up, I fire off another one.

If I have no progress after those 5 steps, I just cancel and start again.

These recipes are a numbers game. There are only so many failures you can take on without needing absurd luck with states like Good and Primed to counteract it. I found a direct correlation between how poorly the first 10 steps go with the odds that I actually finish. There are times when I tired to save a 50ish step synth only to be fortunate enough to get a Good on Byregot's and STILL wind up short. In other words, this synth probably wasn't saveable at step 10. So why am I on step 50?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dspguy

In my experience, when learning how to do these synths, keep going even if your Rapid Syntheses are failing. However, in practice... I like to know if my synth is going to fail early on. I use Muscle Memory and look to couple it with any combination of Veneration, Malleable and Centered. I fire off a Rapid Synthesis the first time I have any combination of those up. And if another Malleable Centered or Sturdy shows up after the Muscle Memory buff is down but Veneration is still up, I fire off another one.

If I have no progress after those 5 steps, I just cancel and start again.

These recipes are a numbers game. There are only so many failures you can take on without needing absurd luck with states like Good and Primed to counteract it. I found a direct correlation between how poorly the first 10 steps go with the odds that I actually finish. There are times when I tired to save a 50ish step synth only to be fortunate enough to get a Good on Byregot's and STILL wind up short. In other words, this synth probably wasn't saveable at step 10. So why am I on step 50?

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Thank you so much! Im still experiencing best way to do. I got a little progress now and happy for this. At least i can get success 1 of 10 tries now :d. Still trying for better as well! (I also realized that how much I hate rng...)

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Originally Posted by Clairdetsuki

Hi and thanks for your guideful words Caimie. But i want to ask something about your rotation. I have tried your rotation and didnt get any success, probably did something wrong. What should i do if my rapid synthesses go fizzle many time at the beginning. Should i use veneration again and go for Rapid syn again? But this time my durability makes big problem even while using manipulation.

My second problem is, sometimes my progress goes nicely but this time i have a problem with my IQ stacks. What should i do if i have max Progress but low stacks?

Third and last problem is when i have max prog and stacks, i try to make your big touch combo but sometimes durability makes problem again... Would you want to explain a bit more please? Sorry if im bothering you :/

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Hi Clair, sometimes if Rapid Syn fails 5x or more in a craft, it's kind of "dead". There are occasional times that it can be salvaged, so I wouldn't give up yet. I usually strive until the very end, and rarely quit in the middle of a craft. You never know whether something bizarre may happen ahead.

As for "rotation", I do have a kind of "blue print". But when being executed, it changes dramatically, and always deviates by a lot from the original course that I set out for.

In my upcoming guide, I'll add in examples of crafts I did, step-by-step, to illustrate what came across my mind to make those decisions to deviate from the original blue print.

How are people melding to attempt this recipe? I think I might have too much crafts and not enough control.

I have 3875 Craftsmanship, 3684 Control and 579 CP without food.

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Originally Posted by RellSarkas

How are people melding to attempt this recipe? I think I might have too much crafts and not enough control.

I have 3875 Craftsmanship, 3684 Control and 579 CP without food.

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You should be bis or nearly bis. I have 3670 CS and 3745 Cont and 588 cp without any food. I have nearly %50 success rate but still mostly depends on my rng chance to craft them. (Im not Bis)

I'm doing these on my Specialist classes so my stats are 3724 Craftsmanship, 3723 Control, 590 CP (that's including the Soul of the Crafter stats). I'm using HQ Tsai tou Vounou and HQ Cunning Draught. Took a bit of practice but I'm now hitting about 50% success (16 out of my last 31) though I'm getting those good luck streaks and bad luck streaks.

Specialist is very helpful here for Heart and Soul and Careful Observation.

Caimie's gone into a lot of detail about how she's been approaching these recipes in the other thread started by Aizawa_k, it's well worth a read. Her tip about using RS on a Centered instead of Hasty Touch makes a big difference.