SAM is dead

Pour one out, Square pulled the plug

Is this still related to Kaiten? I mean I get you miss it, but SAM is not "dead" dead.

They only removed one of the most iconic abilities of the job, completely gutted its resource management and took all our hard hitting abilities, halved their damage and tried(and failed) to compensate that by making them always crit.

The class fantasy is completely ruined and the job might as well be dead.

But it's pretty evident that whoever is in charge of these class changes does not know what he/she is doing and are unwilling to listen to any of the feedback given these past months, past couple of years if you factor in healers and how they got gutted in shadowbringers.

It's all in all a pretty piss poor performance from the dev team and now the game will not only bleed healers but dps as well.

It actually got buffed. It's not dead whatsoever. People just being overly dramatic on the forums like always.

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Originally Posted by Engaru

They only removed one of the most iconic abilities of the job, completely gutted its resource management and took all our hard hitting abilities, halved their damage and tried(and failed) to compensate that by making them always crit.

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This may be my personal opinion, but I never saw Kaiten as an iconic ability. It simply was a Samurai's Dark Arts / Life Surge / Reassemble (5.0+) that gave you an obligatory button press before Iaijutsu. Arguably the Iaijutsu as a whole is iconic to XIV Samurai and managing the Sens was interesting (at least when Hagakure for Sen->Kenki exchange was viable).

The only hole it left is an alternative spender to Shinten and Kyuten, which I agree is shortsighted.

Regarding forced criticals / forced direct hits - I totally see your point, but for the same reasons Inner Release guaranteed Crit-DH on Fell Cleaves SAM now has their strongest hits be forced Crit-DH; it was to remedy huge damage fluctuation whether you hit your Midare / Tsubame. I for one am looking forward to how well the Crit + DH overcap adjustments will affect SAM.

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Originally Posted by Engaru

now the game will not only bleed healers but dps as well.

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This is hyperbole and you know it. "Bleeding DPS" as if DPS aren't a massive surplus. Please.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

This may be my personal opinion, but I never saw Kaiten as an iconic ability. It simply was a Samurai's Dark Arts / Life Surge / Reassemble (5.0+) that gave you an obligatory button press before Iaijutsu. Arguably the Iaijutsu as a whole is iconic to XIV Samurai and managing the Sens was interesting (at least when Hagakure for Sen->Kenki exchange was viable).

Regarding forced criticals / forced direct hits - I totally see your point, but for the same reasons Inner Release guaranteed Crit-DH on Fell Cleaves SAM now has their strongest hits be forced Crit-DH; it was to remedy huge damage fluctuation whether you hit your Midare / Tsubame. I for one am looking forward to how well the Crit + DH overcap adjustments will affect SAM.


This is hyperbole and you know it. "Bleeding DPS" as if DPS aren't a massive surplus. Please.

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Yes, it is hyperbole. If an average person looking to get into the game came to the official forums looking for advice, they'd probably think they game was dead and the plug was being pulled tomorrow.

There's flaws with the game, of course. All games have flaws. But the sheer amount of cynicism and entitlement on these forums is as bad as the "there is nothing wrong with the game!" fanboys.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

It actually got buffed. It's not dead whatsoever. People just being overly dramatic on the forums like always.

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The buffs are utterly meaningless. There was no reason to buff aoe damage. It's just another band aid solution for a problem that never existed, just like the Kaiten removal.

Another "Kaiten" Oh My God, My Life Is Ruined Thread?

I blame WoW players for kaiten being deleted. Discuss.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

This may be my personal opinion, but I never saw Kaiten as an iconic ability. It simply was a Samurai's Dark Arts / Life Surge / Reassemble (5.0+) that gave you an obligatory button press before Iaijutsu. Arguably the Iaijutsu as a whole is iconic to XIV Samurai and managing the Sens was interesting (at least when Hagakure for Sen->Kenki exchange was viable).

The only hole it left is an alternative spender to Shinten and Kyuten, which I agree is shortsighted.

Regarding forced criticals / forced direct hits - I totally see your point, but for the same reasons Inner Release guaranteed Crit-DH on Fell Cleaves SAM now has their strongest hits be forced Crit-DH; it was to remedy huge damage fluctuation whether you hit your Midare / Tsubame. I for one am looking forward to how well the Crit + DH overcap adjustments will affect SAM.


This is hyperbole and you know it. "Bleeding DPS" as if DPS aren't a massive surplus. Please.

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I still struggle to see who these changes where actually for, can't be for the casuals since they don't care about optimizing rotations, can't be for the hard core players either since most bits of complexity got taken out of SAM in 6.1.

And the button bloat reasoning they gave is just absolute horse crap while SAM has at least 5 abilities that could have either been outright removed or merged and no one would have raised an eyebrow. First thing that comes to mind is Shoha and Shoha II, just why...

What is dead may never die.

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Originally Posted by CienFleur

Another "Kaiten" Oh My God, My Life Is Ruined Thread?

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Oh no, another unqualified comment.

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Originally Posted by Engaru

Oh no, another unqualified comment.

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Oh no another failed sarcastic response.

SAM is not dead (I haven't tested it yet but it sounds like the changes to crit/d-hit will make our heavy hitters feel powerful again, which is great) but we do still need Kaiten back. It added a certain rhythm to the way the job played and gave the Kenki gauge a purpose. Now all we use Kenki for is Shinten spam. Guren and Senei may as well not even be spenders because of their long and mutually exclusive CD.

I also still believe it was a mistake to turn Tenka Goken into a circular AoE. We have other cone/column attacks.

TL;DR SAM is not dead but it's not in the best state it could be. Hopefully in 7.0 it gets fixed somehow.

Dead? maybe not. Dead to many players? definitely.


The worst part is the Dev's and Yoshi ignoring the feedback they requested. Silence, not even acknowledging it due to Damage Control of the backlash from over 145 Samurai threads / 10 Youtube video's on Samurai / and the JP forums being on fire till this day on their megathread going over 200 pages of post s.

Gameplay that's deleted while it being downplayed by the usual repetitive rhetoric of the once that don't care for preserving or improving FFXIV's gameplay whatsoever.

• Ehh, looked up FFlogs or not, SAM still performs
• Square can't do no wrong ook-ook monkey noises
• It's just 1 Button, right?

Players who genuinely cared were the once actually saying anything about it. Like Yoshi-P said quote " the silent leave first ". We were requested to post feedback on the forum, and met with dismissal and mocked simplified to just stfu basically since no matter what gameplay experiences were lost, " you're fine ". Great sparkling community.

If players want to dive into their nihilism? that's completely fine. It does get old to hear the same lines from white gargling stained mouths gushing over a company they been sucking on that seemingly can't do no wrong. But hey, I still enjoy Sam, I just have no faith in the current SE team.

I am pouring one out for samurais and mchs. Samurai was my main from stormblood tell Endwalker. I may have switched to reaper but I still feel for you.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Is this still related to Kaiten? I mean I get you miss it, but SAM is not "dead" dead.

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Its dead to me. Auto crits are boring, and shinten spam sucks.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

It actually got buffed. It's not dead whatsoever. People just being overly dramatic on the forums like always.

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Wow...aoe buffs to put us back in to 6.0 mediocre aoe status....neat....

With 6.1 only, Samurai went from the most popular melee with reaper during the previous savage raid to one of least played melee in Ultimate. Only reaper has fewer numbers but that's because it's quite weak in terms of burst for that content.
Samurai used to be great at 1 min bursts, now it's completely gutted.

There are now even more monks who cleared this ultimate than samurais, it's very telling the job lost all love from high end players.

Terrible gameplay + gutted numbers = dead job. It's not even good at what it was doing before, and it's a mere shadow of its past self.

Also guaranteed crits is equivalent to zero crit. It's the same result since it's basically a fixed potency. It's awful game design.

I'm not a SAM main...nor to I play it optimally.

I understand the community being upset about SAM, but I can only sympathize.

I can't empathize as I was in a sinking boat for years as MNK, until the dev team actually played MNK and said "Wow....this sucks!". It took a long time to have those voices heard.

Soooooo.... once SAM has had nearly 8 years of being let down like the MNK community....THEN I might show some empathy.


Again I don't play SAM. For me kaiten was a clear case of style over substance. It was cool as hell visually, but boiled down to a button that pushed before midare. It wasn't really a choice, but a requirement. So I don't really see the need to have a button that was basically a Dark Arts equivalent. It being removed doesn't break the job, but it changes the flow of it's combat. And I think that is the real hold out for ALOT of people...they just don't think it was a big deal therefore why change it. Maybe i'm wrong.

If SE were to bring back Kaiten...IF! It would have happened already....sad to say.

I'm going to accept it's not coming back.... and if by some miracle it did...it would be in 7.0 as something VASTLY different. Possibly a 3 charge bonus that has a 60 second cooldown that requires no Kenki. i.e. Bunshin, inner release, requiscat, delirium, Summoner ifrit, titan, garuda charges, etc, etc.

Something that doesn't require hitting it constantly and is more of a carry over buff that lasts through your burst phase.

Time will tell.

Keep pulling for it guys....it worked for MNK, and is slowly working for DRK (Living Dead).

To everyone who keeps saying midare is in the same place as fell cleave, I'd like to make clear it does not have guaranteed direct hit to make a critical direct hit. It is only guaranteed critical. So no, even of you want to say it's still a net positive, it is not equal.

Also, of they're trying to address feedback about aoe, potency was not the issue. The shape of our casted aoe is what the problem is. I agree tenka goken needed more potency, I would even wager it should have been given the auto crit treatment like midare just so it isn't so obviously weak, but the main crucial detail that makes it so bad is the shape.

Why is it still a circle!?!? It casts! It should have never been changed to a circle, leave it a cone.

I was a Monk main for a long time too, ARR to early SB, it was severly bad at the start of SB but got really good at the end of it, only to be completely destroyed TWICE in Shb.

Monk never came back to its former glory, even today it's not great and very boring to me. Samurai took a hard hit as well in the middly of an xpack, making it completely dead to me. All the job flavour is gone. No more big hits (what's the point in casting big attacks if they hit that low ???). Casting Iaijutsus after a GCD feels like something is missing, there is a moment of nothing between the two that feels absolutely awful.

I keep seeing the same shit, SE butchering functioning jobs for no reason.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

I'm not a SAM main...nor to I play it optimally.

I understand the community being upset about SAM, but I can only sympathize.

I can't empathize as I was in a sinking boat for years as MNK, until the dev team actually played MNK and said "Wow....this sucks!". It took a long time to have those voices heard.

Soooooo.... once SAM has had nearly 8 years of being let down like the MNK community....THEN I might show some empathy.


Again I don't play SAM. For me kaiten was a clear case of style over substance. It was cool as hell visually, but boiled down to a button that pushed before midare. It wasn't really a choice, but a requirement. So I don't really see the need to have a button that was basically a Dark Arts equivalent. It being removed doesn't break the job, but it changes the flow of it's combat. And I think that is the real hold out for ALOT of people...they just don't think it was a big deal therefore why change it. Maybe i'm wrong.

If SE were to bring back Kaiten...IF! It would have happened already....sad to say.

I'm going to accept it's not coming back.... and if by some miracle it did...it would be in 7.0 as something VASTLY different. Possibly a 3 charge bonus that has a 60 second cooldown that requires no Kenki. i.e. Bunshin, inner release, requiscat, delirium, Summoner ifrit, titan, garuda charges, etc, etc.

Something that doesn't require hitting it constantly and is more of a carry over buff that lasts through your burst phase.

Time will tell.

Keep pulling for it guys....it worked for MNK, and is slowly working for DRK (Living Dead).

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New MNK is kinda bad though....Like who enjoys delaying the cool new animation because they have to double phoenix to line up with raid buffs? I'd rather have the tail end version of ShB MNK back. Current MNK is pretty boring to play.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

I'm not a SAM main...nor to I play it optimally.

I understand the community being upset about SAM, but I can only sympathize.

I can't empathize as I was in a sinking boat for years as MNK, until the dev team actually played MNK and said "Wow....this sucks!". It took a long time to have those voices heard.

Soooooo.... once SAM has had nearly 8 years of being let down like the MNK community....THEN I might show some empathy.

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And this petty mentality is why boomers will make sure you will never pay off your student loan.

Literally nothing should ever be fixed because there's always someone who had to go uphill both ways throwing a tantrum if you do.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

I'm not a SAM main...nor to I play it optimally.

I understand the community being upset about SAM, but I can only sympathize.

I can't empathize as I was in a sinking boat for years as MNK, until the dev team actually played MNK and said "Wow....this sucks!". It took a long time to have those voices heard.

Soooooo.... once SAM has had nearly 8 years of being let down like the MNK community....THEN I might show some empathy.

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What the actual fuck is this shizo rant about?. SAMs deserve it, simply because similar thing happened monks? That's same logic as "I was abused by my parents, therefore my kids deserve to be abused too".
And once again, it's not just about Kaiten, Kaiten it's just the biggest outlier. If you would read few SAM threads instead of voicing your uneducated opinion, you would know.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

New MNK is kinda bad though....Like who enjoys delaying the cool new animation because they have to double phoenix to line up with raid buffs? I'd rather have the tail end version of ShB MNK back. Current MNK is pretty boring to play.

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Agreed, it's clunky.
The best Monk ever was was at the end of SB. It was a happy accident they removed in Shb. For once they did something right, they were really quick to delete it.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

It actually got buffed. It's not dead whatsoever. People just being overly dramatic on the forums like always.

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What is so hard to understand that this has nothing to do with numbers and everything to do with the feel of the job?

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Originally Posted by Quor

What is so hard to understand that this has nothing to do with numbers and everything to do with the feel of the job?

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How dare we expect decent gameplay in a video game?!
Only numbers count!
new job: one button, 100k hit per press, auto crit, why don't you like it ?

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Originally Posted by Deithwen

How dare we expect decent gameplay in a video game?!
Only numbers count!
new job: one button, 100k hit per press, auto crit, why don't you like it ?

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Hyperbole aside you do realize that fun and feel are subjective? What's fun to you may not br fun to others. What stands for the main feel of the job may not be the same for others. Didn't have a chance to use Kaiten as I got the full game after 6.1 dropped. In fact for the ling time I did not touch SAM out of both respect for the SAM players prior me and due to opinion of being ruined. I ultimately did and... I kinda like it. Building up to the Iai feels fun on top of weaving between positionals and learning the right opportunity to use the finisher. Would my opinion be different if I had a chance to try SAM before Kaiten removal? Maybe. Maybe not. Would it matter? Probably not since even then it's just my subjective opinions and feelings.

There are pages and pages of people detailing why they feel Kaiten removal was a change that reduced the experience, with an overwhelming majority. Dismissing all their points with with "fun is subjective" or "who can say" platitudes is vapid.

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Originally Posted by Jaquan

Hyperbole aside you do realize that fun and feel are subjective? What's fun to you may not br fun to others. What stands for the main feel of the job may not be the same for others. Didn't have a chance to use Kaiten as I got the full game after 6.1 dropped. In fact for the ling time I did not touch SAM out of both respect for the SAM players prior me and due to opinion of being ruined. I ultimately did and... I kinda like it. Building up to the Iai feels fun on top of weaving between positionals and learning the right opportunity to use the finisher. Would my opinion be different if I had a chance to try SAM before Kaiten removal? Maybe. Maybe not. Would it matter? Probably not since even then it's just my subjective opinions and feelings.

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Remove something fun for many and see how it's improving their subjective appreciation of "fun".
Subjective does not mean it's not measurable in any way. Removing complexity from a job no one wanted dumbed down is not smart.

And please, your complete uneducated opinion on the matter only makes your look condescending. You could not even get the kenki generation right.

I am really fed up of these people using the "it's subjective" argument. It's the abyss of intelligence. As an example ,humour appreciation is subjective, yet it can be rationalized and so can gameplay. Please don't dumb down the debate.

Fun is subjective, may be subjective, but the class is objectively in worse shape without Kaiten and cone-shaped Tenka Goten.

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Originally Posted by Hysterior

I blame WoW players for kaiten being deleted. Discuss.

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Nah, WoW players are all about spinning. It increases crit chance.

Like again, or still dead from the Kaiten removal?

I am glad you’ve come around your senses & just be sat down to cherish the new SAM -sips Ishgardian wine-

I am glad others sees this approach in new light to great beginnings:)

PS: it was you that set the flames first & snuffed the “glue” if anything

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Originally Posted by Vencio

I am glad you’ve come around your senses & just be sat down to cherish the new SAM -sips Ishgardian wine-

I am glad others sees this approach in new light to great beginnings:)

PS: it was you that set the flames first & snuffed the “glue” if anything

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There is no Ishgardian wine, the land is too cold for any grapes to grow. Get lost, terrible troll.

I am not a SAM main whatsoever, I just enjoyed it since Stormblood and play it as a fan of the job sometimes. Using Kaiten just before my big hits felt oh-so-satisfying and really added to the identity for the job for me. I actually liked Dark Arts in HW as well, hated it in SB, and enjoy the new SHB/EW DRK. I never felt like Kaiten (or even Eukrasia) was the same as Dark Arts. All three buttons felt unique and had different applications for use, adding further to job identity.

I imagine having a guaranteed crit on SAM's biggest hitter with Kaiten would've only made it felt even better. If enough people continue leaving feedback, hopefully SE will re-add it back.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

I am not a SAM main whatsoever, I just enjoyed it since Stormblood and play it as a fan of the job sometimes. Using Kaiten just before my big hits felt oh-so-satisfying and really added to the identity for the job for me. I actually liked Dark Arts in HW as well, hated it in SB, and enjoy the new SHB/EW DRK. I never felt like Kaiten (or even Eukrasia) was the same as Dark Arts. All three buttons felt unique and had different applications for use, adding further to job identity.

I imagine having a guaranteed crit on SAM's biggest hitter with Kaiten would've only made it felt even better. If enough people continue leaving feedback, hopefully SE will re-add it back.

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Hard to say. Apparently, all our feedback amounted to was a pittance of potency increase to our aoe without adjusting them in a way that makes it worth using. But I guess if the intended way to do dungeons is to die trying to attack the enemies, then I guess I can try that when next I log on.

Tenka goken is still a circle for some unholy reason. They didn't even give it the auto-crit treatment that midare and ogi received to at least make it make sense to use for the power of it.

I'm really curious where they decided to pull their feedback from if this was all they did for sam 6.2

Tried SAM on a target dummy earlier. Is it just me or did the crit/d-hit changes not help at all? It sounded good on paper but we're still not putting out the huge spikes of damage that we used to. Hitting Midare for double the damage of the last step of one of my Sen combos doesn't feel great. Even worse when one of those combos ends on a crit or d-hit.

Guess I'm a DRG main now. It's fun, but I miss my katana. DRG also feels terrible to play if I get synced below level 62. I'm 74 now and it's just starting to feel like it has a complete kit for ST and AoE rotations. I have no idea why they gave the job so much AoE but back-loaded it into the last 25-30 levels. SAM doesn't have this problem, it feels like a complete job at 50 right out of the box. And you actually use your Sen gauge. Dragoons don't start using their first job gauge until level 70. SAM starts using its second job gauge at level 52! DRG doesn't get Stardiver until 80, and the second half of their job gauge is added at level 90. Why is this considered good job progression?!

If SE hadn't destroyed the beauty that was 6.08 SAM, I wouldn't even be considering going back to WoW in a couple months. Ret paladin just looks like it's going to be way more fun to play in Dragonflight than DRG or SAM are right now. DRG is great, but when you spend a significant portion of your time in down-synced content for roulettes, it feels awful to have so much of your kit missing.

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Originally Posted by Theodric_Thorne

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The changes made to Midare, Oni and AoE Iaijutsu won't be apparent when playing solo as your crit stat does and always did affect both chances of crit and the damage dealt. The change however gives Samurai back the Synergy with classes that grant their party Crit Rate buffs (as those affected only odds of getting a crit and not damage) as now their Auto Crit skills deals extra damage when under those buffs.

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Originally Posted by Deithwen

There is no Ishgardian wine, the land is too cold for any grapes to grow. Get lost, terrible troll.

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- tosses a robotic playing mouse - Am afraid you’ve much to be cultured, glad you’ve taken such delight for our Elezen land’s cold winter, now please go fetch the mouse!