6.25 to introduce Rank Demotion. Do you think this will help or hurt the overall PvP

Derp, Season 3 not 6.25


https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...127&height=630

I personally think it's a bad thing because one of the better points was the lack of Demotion as it encouraged casual people to pick up CC.

I'm sure the hardcore pvp folks feel differently, but PvP has always been niche content in FFXIV and CC really opened it up to a new audience.

good players wont stop playing if their ranking is saved.

Since 2.3 I have only liked frontlines and wish pvp was balanced around it

Demotion should be for crystal tier only as it's the main one where lazy players were dragging down others who were serious about ranking up.

Penalizing people more for losing is not going to magically make them play better,.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

Demotion should be for crystal tier only as it's the main one where lazy players were dragging down others who were serious about ranking up.

Penalizing people more for losing is not going to magically make them play better,.

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This is my thoughts. I think it should be capped at gold (can't demote from there)

? I thought you already could get demoted in each rank for losing. So why would losing rank be a thing if you can already drop from say bronze 3 to bronze 1 just by being paired with bad randos? Are they really willing to create even more sodium or something?

My main concern is that even an excellent player can be trapped in a specific tier. I enjoy PvP - as my lodestone profile will attest - but I've mostly stuck to Frontlines simply because the ranking in this game has always been questionable. Frequently I am punished for not queuing up on day one for hours on end and getting a head start. Or I'll play very well only to consistently lose because teammates are running off in all directions, we can't actually type in ranked mode to our party members and sometimes the enemy team having a healer is exactly the edge needed for them to win a battle of attrition.

I wish the PvP mode was more focused on rewarding personal contributions rather than whether a team wins or loses. At least in such a way as to mitigate any steep losses. For example, if someone is consistently doing the highest healing, damage or scoring the most kills but their team is losing...maybe work that into the system somehow.

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Originally Posted by gotaname1

? I thought you already could get demoted in each rank for losing. So why would losing rank be a thing if you can already drop from say bronze 3 to bronze 1 just by being paired with bad randos? Are they really willing to create even more sodium or something?

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They seem to have a misconception about why people are having trouble winning in CC, which is, to put it bluntly, that most of the playerbase is painfully average at best, not that they're being lazy or not trying hard enough.

The actual fix to this is have some manner of skill grading and either protect you from demotion or make you get demoted faster depending on how much you're actually contributing on a match to match basis. Someone who is consistently taking the top spot for number of deaths or bottom spot for damage dealt as a DPS job probably has some serious issues they need to sort out.

Oh it's just PvP rank.
I thought it was something important like Grand Company ranks

It's good, there should be rank decay as well if you don't queue. Ladder systems like this don't work well if you can't derank and can't decay down to another rank. Everyone just grinds at the start of PvP like they did earlier, and they're forever a high rank for the rest of time, while the pool of players in lower ranks gets smaller and ranking up gets harder.
A rank reset to the bottom of the ladder for everyone every so many season might be a good idea too.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

My main concern is that even an excellent player can be trapped in a specific tier. I enjoy PvP - as my lodestone profile will attest - but I've mostly stuck to Frontlines simply because the ranking in this game has always been questionable. Frequently I am punished for not queuing up on day one for hours on end and getting a head start. Or I'll play very well only to consistently lose because teammates are running off in all directions, we can't actually type in ranked mode to our party members and sometimes the enemy team having a healer is exactly the edge needed for them to win a battle of attrition.

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Remember though, people keep saying "You're in the tier you belong in", despite the fact that there are 4 other people on randomly chosen to play with you you can't control who might be vastly worse than you.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

They seem to have a misconception about why people are having trouble winning in CC, which is, to put it bluntly, that most of the playerbase is painfully average at best, not that they're being lazy or not trying hard enough.

The actual fix to this is have some manner of skill grading and either protect you from demotion or make you get demoted faster depending on how much you're actually contributing on a match to match basis. Someone who is consistently taking the top spot for number of deaths or bottom spot for damage dealt as a DPS job probably has some serious issues they need to sort out.

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This is what Silver Hell / Casual Hell basically devolves into: (Not trying to flex but when you see a DPS with 0 damage, that's clearly a bot / boost account)

https://i.imgur.com/mLm1LrS.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/6ba30j2.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/QrBz4sb.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/PVZRDoD.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/PjW2kaF.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/2GwycrM.jpg

Rating demolition should go all the way down to Bronze. If people are intentionally throwing games to that degree, make it something you can be reported/suspended for.

Also implement rating decay for the higher tiers when people go absolutely inactive.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

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This post needs to be shown far and wide imo. Those pics sum up why I have stopped playing CC all together. I only play frontline atm to get that dang coat. Afterwards I am unlikely to touch pvp again with the crappy matchmaking experiences.

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Originally Posted by Johners

Rating demolition should go all the way down to Bronze. If people are intentionally throwing games to that degree, make it something you can be reported/suspended for.

Also implement rating decay for the higher tiers when people go absolutely inactive.

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I think the problem is that the difference between just being bad and intentionally throwing can actually be kind of blurry sometimes.

Ranking decay should definitely be a thing to keep people from just win-trading to a high score early in the season then resting on their undeserved laurels.

We have win traders to thank for this.

Maybe some people will try a little harder.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

They seem to have a misconception about why people are having trouble winning in CC, which is, to put it bluntly, that most of the playerbase is painfully average at best, not that they're being lazy or not trying hard enough.

The actual fix to this is have some manner of skill grading and either protect you from demotion or make you get demoted faster depending on how much you're actually contributing on a match to match basis. Someone who is consistently taking the top spot for number of deaths or bottom spot for damage dealt as a DPS job probably has some serious issues they need to sort out.

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SE knows, they just refuse to acknowledge that their player base is beyond saving.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

They seem to have a misconception about why people are having trouble winning in CC, which is, to put it bluntly, that most of the playerbase is painfully average at best, not that they're being lazy or not trying hard enough.

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Can't really speak for PvP, but in PvE it certainly is laziness, which makes me doubt there are different people specifically in PvP that just plain suck instead of just doing what they do everywhere else.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

This is my thoughts. I think it should be capped at gold (can't demote from there)

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Erm isn't it capped at Platinium? From that slide it shows promotions for all ranks, but only shows demotions until Platinum. If it goes all the way surely they'd have arrows to reflect that, otherwise why do two demotion arrows?

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...2_19-52-38.jpg

Losing Diamond or Crystal because of a bad team is gonna suck. Honestly the odds are so stacked against you that even getting to crystal is worth staying there at least for the season. You have to be someone who carries teams to an extent to get up that high. If it’s gonna be an even more toxic ranking system like overwatch then I might be done. Getting to crystal the first time was super agonizing the first time. Right now I’m stuck in diamond despite getting to diamond 1 three risers because queues suck right now and when you do get a match you have to play with people in a tier below or spam chat. With the new demotion changes high rank is gonna be even more salty.

AND WE HAVE TO START IN BRONZE AGAIN? I’m not climbing through that again.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

I personally think it's a bad thing because one of the better points was the lack of Demotion as it encouraged casual people to pick up CC.

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I just play enough to unlock the glamour, I don't care about the ranks at all.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

They seem to have a misconception about why people are having trouble winning in CC, which is, to put it bluntly, that most of the playerbase is painfully average at best, not that they're being lazy or not trying hard enough.

The actual fix to this is have some manner of skill grading and either protect you from demotion or make you get demoted faster depending on how much you're actually contributing on a match to match basis. Someone who is consistently taking the top spot for number of deaths or bottom spot for damage dealt as a DPS job probably has some serious issues they need to sort out.

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I’ve had plenty of losing matches where I was top damage and/or KOs and Assists and then still lost the star of course. We can learn from overwatch that combining a ranking system based on only wins and losses with a team based game just leads to massive saltiness and toxicity. It doesn’t matter if you’re the greatest player of all time: if you’re paired with four booger eaters you have no chance if the other team is decent.

it's still not going to fix the issue with lower ranks having long queue times and being full of people on alt characters dominating.

Deranking is a bad idea and there really needs to be a bigger outcry over this. This is a awful and horrible idea. Getting to Crystal rank is stressful and hard enough. Especially with bots and cheaters. All this will do is entice people to cheat further. Don't do this SE, please do not do this. The ranking was fine as is, you did not need to change it. Like did anyone seriously complain anywhere "Gosh I wish I could get deranked because I lost~" no if anything, I heard the opposite, people getting less tilted because they weren't deranked when they finally endured to the next tier. PvP was finally getting attention, but this is a good way to deter people from playing it more. DO NOT PUT DERANK BACK.

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Originally Posted by Nav_Fae

Deranking is a bad idea and there really needs to be a bigger outcry over this. This is a awful and horrible idea. Getting to Crystal rank is stressful and hard enough. Especially with bots and cheaters. All this will do is entice people to cheat further. Don't do this SE, please do not do this. The ranking was fine as is, you did not need to change it. Like did anyone seriously complain anywhere "Gosh I wish I could get deranked because I lost~" no if anything, I heard the opposite, people getting less tilted because they weren't deranked when they finally endured to the next tier. PvP was finally getting attention, but this is a good way to deter people from playing it more. DO NOT PUT DERANK BACK.

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The ranking system is not fine, the entire system with no deranking or rank decay filters players upward into higher ranks and screws over any latecomers to the game mode. You cannot have a ranked system with no decay and only progression, it's going to starve out the lower ranks and kill the game mode. You don't get special treatment for playing first and grinding up to crystal when it's easy, you have to maintain to stay up there.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

The ranking system is not fine, the entire system with no deranking or rank decay filters players upward into higher ranks and screws over any latecomers to the game mode. You cannot have a ranked system with no decay and only progression, it's going to starve out the lower ranks and kill the game mode. You don't get special treatment for playing first and grinding up to crystal when it's easy, you have to maintain to stay up there.

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In a game with this much cheating going on in it, this is not the way to do it. If you want to do decay for idle time and force a few matches a week, maybe that would work. But a deranking system is not the solution in this format. All it will do is encourage more cheating now that you can derank. This is poorly thought out and all it will do is cause people to play less over all across the board. Your queuing will now be worse. It happened with Feast and it will happen with CC. They didn't learn from it.

I'm surprised they care so much about players "giving their all" in PvP, yet PvE is basically made to enable and protect putting in as little effort as possible and being carried. Both are team activities with rewards.

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Originally Posted by Nav_Fae

In a game with this much cheating going on in it, this is not the way to do it. If you want to do decay for idle time and force a few matches a week, maybe that would work. But a deranking system is not the solution in this format. All it will do is encourage more cheating now that you can derank. This is poorly thought out and all it will do is cause people to play less over all across the board. Your queuing will now be worse. It happened with Feast and it will happen with CC. They didn't learn from it.

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No deranking means you filter everyone upward and there's no one left to play in bronze and silver, anyone new has no one to play with and the mode dies out. You can't have a system where you filter everyone upwards and then never let them fall back down.
If anything they should have let you derank all the way down to the bottom if you lose.

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Originally Posted by Nav_Fae

Deranking is a bad idea and there really needs to be a bigger outcry over this. This is a awful and horrible idea. Getting to Crystal rank is stressful and hard enough. Especially with bots and cheaters. All this will do is entice people to cheat further. Don't do this SE, please do not do this. The ranking was fine as is, you did not need to change it. Like did anyone seriously complain anywhere "Gosh I wish I could get deranked because I lost~" no if anything, I heard the opposite, people getting less tilted because they weren't deranked when they finally endured to the next tier. PvP was finally getting attention, but this is a good way to deter people from playing it more. DO NOT PUT DERANK BACK.

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I honestly didn't agree with the ranking system when I originally saw it. It's backwards to me. Why are high rank players awarded with more playing time while lower rank players are getting less? I understand being where you are if you're truly stuck trying to progress up the ranks, but this type of punishment for being stuck just feels truly wrong.

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Originally Posted by Mistress_Irika

I honestly didn't agree with the ranking system when I originally saw it. It's backwards to me. Why are high rank players awarded with more playing time while lower rank players are getting less? I understand being where you are if you're truly stuck trying to progress up the ranks, but this type of punishment for being stuck just feels truly wrong.

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The queues were only bad in about the gold tier.
I agree derank isn't the solution though. This only encourages cheating when you get to Diamond/Crystal. Especially if top 100 rewards start becoming more desirable. Sure lower tier will have more queue times but this opens other can of worms in the process and that's why I do not think it's the answer. Just feels like a "other games do it so we will to" cop out that doesn't address the actual problem.

Great!

Whenever I lose a rank in Splatoon 2 because I happened to be matched with a really bad team thorough an entire session that I can't carry the first thing I think about is "MAN! I wish more games would have chat-less PvP exactly like this! What a wonderful experience!"

Good thinking SE!

I'm still here thinking that PVP is a waste of development time and wish they'd put less time into it overall.

Like whats even the point, they don't balance around the one eternal PVP mode that gets the daily roulette, but instead balance around the side mode that dies after a couple of weeks when people already have the rewards, when a majority of players only want the rewards and probably are just dragging their feet through pvp in the first place?

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Originally Posted by Remish

The queues were only bad in about the gold tier.
I agree derank isn't the solution though. This only encourages cheating when you get to Diamond/Crystal. Especially if top 100 rewards start becoming more desirable. Sure lower tier will have more queue times but this opens other can of worms in the process and that's why I do not think it's the answer. Just feels like a "other games do it so we will to" cop out that doesn't address the actual problem.

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Then what's your solution to make queue times better for lower ranks? Right now it's pretty bad and it's only getting worse with no deranking and as the mode dies out. How are people supposed to get games? Or are you only concerned with high ranking players because of a "fuck you I got mine" mentality?

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

Then what's your solution to make queue times better for lower ranks? Right now it's pretty bad and it's only getting worse with no deranking and as the mode dies out. How are people supposed to get games? Or are you only concerned with high ranking players because of a "fuck you I got mine" mentality?

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The demote is only to Platinum. It's not fixing the problem you are describing.

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Originally Posted by Azuri

The demote is only to Platinum. It's not fixing the problem you are describing.

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Yes, it should go further and let people demote all the way down to the bottom if they consistently lose. Filtering people only up is nothing but trouble. All you get in lower ranks are long queue times, late starters, and alts characters that come in and stomp everyone. It's not a fun experience in the slightest.

Here's the thing. Player retention ultimately depends on the rewards and how easily achievable they seem to be able to get. If the Season 3 rewards are a repeat of Season 2, then no one is really going to play it. If the rewards were better glamour, new mounts, and such (rewards that actually look good), and are guaranteed to be unlockable as long as you reach the requisite rank -- even if you don't make it this season, then the rewards are guaranteed in the same way it's guaranteed in Extreme or Savage encounters. It's only about the matter of time and effort you put into reaching it.

If the incentive for the rewards at higher ranks is good, then there will always be people willing to try to get them. If the rewards feel unobtainable (such as top 100 having a very high leaderboard score when you barely reach Crystal), then no one will really attempt to get them.

What Rank Demotions provides is having less alts/bots to sabotage your way in the same tier / higher tiers while climbing up. This only matters for players who really want to promote upwards. Otherwise, rank demotions doesn't change anything else since everyone still naturally drops stars otherwise. Now, the people who actually do intentionally lose your games are definitely reportable and the offense is much more strict while staying in Bronze tier. Those players will rarely be reaching towards Silver, Gold, Platinum, etc. so there will be less chances of running into people who intentionally "throw the game".

Having a snapshot of the highest rank you ever achieved is a good thing - you will always unlock the highest reward you get, even if you fall from Crystal tier to Diamond, or Diamond to Platinum. You will still get Crystal tier rewards / Diamond Tier rewards. This is pretty much a failsafe for Rank Demotions. If all the allies on your team are bots who intentionally throw at Bronze tier, then even if your team is bad, you can still carry yourself out of Bronze because the enemy bot team will also be bad. As the only real player left, you should be able to stomp on them quite easily. Otherwise... your skill level might belong in that tier.

Ultimately, where the rank demotions start will be a big divide into whether your skill level is above bots or below bots. Personally, I'd rather have it start at lower ranks, but it might discourage players from attempting to reach Silver/Gold and understand the intricacies of PvP combat. Having a bigger buffer might be a better thing, but it might also be a bad thing since bots can still reach Platinum before rank decay.

While I think saving the highest score a player reached in Crystal tier allows the top 100 players to play freely knowing their score is saved, it doesn't really invite newer players to attempt to beat their score if their score is already very high. Likewise, it doesn't mean the people at the top-100 will continue to play, after knowing they have successfully achieved top-100. Finally, it also means the top-100 players can throw games after knowing no one else can reach that ranking if not enough players are playing.

What really needs to be added in addition to the Rank Demotion is actually "Rank Decay" at higher ranks (Crystal tier) and removing the highest saved score for Crystal Credit. Not playing Crystalline Conflict for a certain number of days will make you decay your ranking slightly, and the rank decay increases progressively the longer you haven't played since your last match. Just playing one match every certain number of days will prevent rank decay entirely. I say rank decay should be a certain number of days rather than each day only because this is a MMO and ranked PvP is only a portion of the game. People still have other priorities, so giving a couple of days before a small decay is fair. However, the longer you aren't playing, the bigger the decay should be, since this is a very competitive reward to attain. This is what would make reaching top 100 more feasible while simultaneously ensuring the top-100 players will always be competitive to attain the requisite reward. Only those who have a very high skill level and play consistently can guarantee their placement -- and that would mean their placement is well deserved.


Of course, this ultimately hinges upon the fact that there will always be a queue -- which is determined based on how enticing the rewards are and how approachable it is for players to reach that rank. If the rewards aren't interesting at all, who would want to get the reward?

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Originally Posted by Remish

The queues were only bad in about the gold tier.
I agree derank isn't the solution though. This only encourages cheating when you get to Diamond/Crystal. Especially if top 100 rewards start becoming more desirable. Sure lower tier will have more queue times but this opens other can of worms in the process and that's why I do not think it's the answer. Just feels like a "other games do it so we will to" cop out that doesn't address the actual problem.

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You're not going to be able to stop cheating or the thought of it by just deciding whether demoting should exist or not. That needs to be combated directly with a proper report system and the staff to see this through. Just saying.

I'm not a fan of it in principle since ranking depends far too much on lucky matching with random people. I really only play CC for the glams and to passively gain achievements, so rank isn't an issue with me, but I know it's important to a lot of people and I don't want that taken from them. If we were able to go in with pre-made groups and have actual communication options in-game then sure, I can see losing rank being a thing, but now way for how it is now.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

Then what's your solution to make queue times better for lower ranks? Right now it's pretty bad and it's only getting worse with no deranking and as the mode dies out. How are people supposed to get games?

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How about de-ranking only happening when you're in a game with an average rank of Silver, but you're Gold, you won't lose rank if you lose. Conversely, you'll only gain rank in games with an average rank equal to or higher than yours. That way you can queue with anyone without needing to worry about losing rank due to someone who tries to do their best but will never make it out of Bronze? It also gives people inventive to fight their hardest when in a game that can give them rank.

Again, I think the idea of losing rank is horrible given how CC's designed. Even late in the series I never had problems getting queues on a JP server until everyone on that side of the world went to sleep. I see absolutely zero reason to have a de-ranking mechanic at all. Zero.


I can see why they did it though; e-sports CC competitions. If CC's going to become an actual competitive mode, no doubt people over at CBU3 thought "X e-sport game has de-ranking, therefore XIV should too!". I call BS on this.

I'll be praying that CBU3 get their head out of their rears and disable it for series 3.

Honestly doesn't look bad since its only effects the two highest ranks if your good maintaining you Diamond and Crystal shouldn't be much of a task especially if you have a team you play with.

there is all kinds of jank happening with season 3

1) introduction of demotion from crystal to diamond and diamond to platinum
2) everyone who is currently ranked is starting back at bronze
3) final rewards are determined by your "high score" not your "final/current" score

personally i'm fine with the demotions at the top cuz in theory it should help to discourage win trading (but also 3rd thing kinda invalidates it)

I also think that everyone starting at bronze is fine however I think that should be a permanent feature
the way it's worded makes it sound like it will only happen this season

the 3rd thing is really not good in my opinion especially when combined with carried over ranks it could lead to queues drying up hard after a few weeks as ppl inevitably get strings of bad luck queues get demoted and think "screw it why bother climbing back up since I already had gotten to x points in crystal"

and win trading could still be a thing here once ppl feel comfortably "secure" with a high enough rating in crystal
then they can just fish for queues with friends and/or alts and throw themselves all the way back down to platinum if they wanted and be a complete liability to anyone else on their team who actually is still trying to climb
which then discourages the legitimate climbers from even bothering to queue and the whole thing devolves into 30m prime time queues again

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

They seem to have a misconception about why people are having trouble winning in CC, which is, to put it bluntly, that most of the playerbase is painfully average at best, not that they're being lazy or not trying hard enough.

The actual fix to this is have some manner of skill grading and either protect you from demotion or make you get demoted faster depending on how much you're actually contributing on a match to match basis. Someone who is consistently taking the top spot for number of deaths or bottom spot for damage dealt as a DPS job probably has some serious issues they need to sort out.

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If everyone is painfully average then everyone will win around 50% of the time. Also, contribution-based, modified OLE is a horrible idea, many games have proved this over the years.