MCH Suggestion: a Grapple-Gun

For your consideration:

MCH currently has no mobility, no utility, and no party synergy besides the Phys Ranged-standard Tactician %-mit. Combined with their poor dps, MCH is broadly unpopular in group content. I have seen too many parties purposefully exclude MCH in favour of BRD/DNC.

One fun solution would be as follows: Give MCH a Grapple-Gun, a gap-closer to a friendly player or enemy (like MNK's Thunderclap).

This enhanced mobility (and overall fun ability!) could easily be combined with other rework ideas, such as:

• A sniper rifle w/ cast-time that deals more potency the further the MCH is from the target
• Scattergun, w/ natural cleave and higher potency the closer MCH is to the target
• A placeable Rook Auto-turret (similar to PvP) that can be Grapple-ed to

This would increase MHC's viability and also its fun factor. Grapple-Guns are cool.

I can already see the Batman glams.

"I didn't get hit by that AOE, I swear to Hydaelyn!"

"SWEAR TO MEEEGHRRHHRGRHGH!!!"

I don't think we need another ability just yet, I'd much rather that fix the issues that currently plague mch. Like say... the AQ, why the heck does it take 6 seconds for it to start getting to work? Also, the other AQ button that makes AQ does its finisher is absolutely useless, because AQ would still do the finisher at the end of its timer. Enough ranting..
Anyways the grapple seems quite cool, I guess it could be similar to how akshan in LoL. Where it'll grapple onto a wall and circle it while doing dmg, can be released at anytime to reposition yourself.

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Originally Posted by Sorzai

I don't think we need another ability just yet, I'd much rather that fix the issues that currently plague mch. Like say... the AQ, why the heck does it take 6 seconds for it to start getting to work? Also, the other AQ button that makes AQ does its finisher is absolutely useless, because AQ would still do the finisher at the end of its timer. Enough ranting..
Anyways the grapple seems quite cool, I guess it could be similar to how akshan in LoL. Where it'll grapple onto a wall and circle it while doing dmg, can be released at anytime to reposition yourself.

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I mean... getting new abilities is something that is gonna happen anyway with a new expansion. Of course it doesn't impede them to make the job better midway EW. I would say besides the queen... I feel that Flamethrower could generate heat during its duration and "ignite" Bioblaster's DoT. Also we could use Bishop Turret back for AoE battery spender... OR having the Queen with a "Bishop Mode" for that same matter.

I like the grapple-gun idea, but I wish it would work like Shukuchi instead of Thunderclap... Is so much better to actually decide where to go. Oh can you imagine if it had 1 charge, but at a 30y range?

Yes, I agree that they need to inject more utility to MCH to give them some appeal. An instant-cast rez with 60s cooldown - Defibrilator? Maybe a single target 20% dmg mitigator (to be a sister action to BRD's +% healing action).

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Originally Posted by Raikai

I mean... getting new abilities is something that is gonna happen anyway with a new expansion. Of course it doesn't impede them to make the job better midway EW. I would say besides the queen... I feel that Flamethrower could generate heat during its duration and "ignite" Bioblaster's DoT. Also we could use Bishop Turret back for AoE battery spender... OR having the Queen with a "Bishop Mode" for that same matter.

I like the grapple-gun idea, but I wish it would work like Shukuchi instead of Thunderclap... Is so much better to actually decide where to go. Oh can you imagine if it had 1 charge, but at a 30y range?

Yes, I agree that they need to inject more utility to MCH to give them some appeal. An instant-cast rez with 60s cooldown - Defibrilator? Maybe a single target 20% dmg mitigator (to be a sister action to BRD's +% healing action).

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I rather it be like ingress as a controller user I hate anything require me to use the touch pad
and this is from a NIN main yeah I can work around it but its not fun and I dont depend on it

I do kind of want a grapple gun. Good idea! I want MCHs to go into the fun, to be the quirkiest class. Just go with it! Ninjas get to hop on frog's for no clear reason - I want to grapple and throw out grenades or launch rockets. And I liked the turret better than the robot lady. I want GADGETS!

Does MCH really needs more mobility? Does it needs to take an extra button?
While I agree it would be fun and all, MCH has many, many far more importants problems to fix before tackling its mobility.

Just the Automaton Queen for example, completely automated, forgettable and the death of fun.
Have you ever had a moment of "Who is that idiot standing in the AoE...? Oh, it's my automaton Queen".

Neat idea, but it's likely to, in most content, just be sitting there on the hotbar and not get used. I can see some minor use (e.g. getting in range for Bioblaster/Flamethrower on trash) but overall it's just... pissing on a house fire. People aren't going to all of a sudden start using MCH, it doesn't give MCH some niche for group utility.

Out of all of the jobs, honestly MCH needs a rework the most and DRG the least, so I'm not sure what they're doing.

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Originally Posted by Vatom

I rather it be like ingress as a controller user I hate anything require me to use the touch pad
and this is from a NIN main yeah I can work around it but its not fun and I dont depend on it

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You use the touch pad for ground targeting? Why not just move the camera with the right analog stick. I can imagine how much you'd hate ground targeting with the touch pad, that would be awful lol.

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Originally Posted by Sorzai

I don't think we need another ability just yet, I'd much rather that fix the issues that currently plague mch. Like say... the AQ, why the heck does it take 6 seconds for it to start getting to work? Also, the other AQ button that makes AQ does its finisher is absolutely useless, because AQ would still do the finisher at the end of its timer. Enough ranting..
Anyways the grapple seems quite cool, I guess it could be similar to how akshan in LoL. Where it'll grapple onto a wall and circle it while doing dmg, can be released at anytime to reposition yourself.

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The button that manually triggers AQ's finisher isn't absolutely useless. It's meant to be used if the enemy isn't going to be there when the timer runs out (e.g. they're going to die before then or are going to become untargetable) the finisher is a large amount of the damage that the AQ does, so not manually triggering it in those instances would result in a large damage drop off.

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Originally Posted by LeonKeyh

The button that manually triggers AQ's finisher isn't absolutely useless. It's meant to be used if the enemy isn't going to be there when the timer runs out (e.g. they're going to die before then or are going to become untargetable) the finisher is a large amount of the damage that the AQ does, so not manually triggering it in those instances would result in a large damage drop off.

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While it's suboptimal there's a bigger issue with the manual trigger: It's inconsistant.
During ShB it was okay, Queen finishes Arm Punch then cast Pile Bunker. Sometimes it would instantly cast Pile Bunker, okay you miss 1 Arm Punch.

In EW, it's a bit more tricky.
AQ needs to go through the whole Pile Bunker animation before casting Crown collider. It's not easy to get the right timing before a kill as the timing really depends on your team DPS.
And add the hard to predict possible Arm Punch that could get in the timing.

The whole Automaton Queen belongs with the garbages.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

While it's suboptimal there's a bigger issue with the manual trigger: It's inconsistant.
During ShB it was okay, Queen finishes Arm Punch then cast Pile Bunker. Sometimes it would instantly cast Pile Bunker, okay you miss 1 Arm Punch.

In EW, it's a bit more tricky.
AQ needs to go through the whole Pile Bunker animation before casting Crown collider. It's not easy to get the right timing before a kill as the timing really depends on your team DPS.
And add the hard to predict possible Arm Punch that could get in the timing.

The whole Automaton Queen belongs with the garbages.

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Oh, I agree. It definitely is bad and that button definitely doesn't work as well as it should. I'm just saying the that IDEA behind the button is sound, it's not useless. It has a use it just doesn't work most of the time.

Also MCH doesnt need to do an acrobatic jump when shooting. Remove that particular animation and it'd become my rdps main.

I'll go with grapple is quite cool, but not needed now. Placable secondary turret, faster queen (oh, and I HAVE used the finishing move on queen to get it to happen within a burst phaze), and shotgun to scattergun upgrades sound like things that would be cool over the next 10 levels.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Does MCH really needs more mobility? Does it needs to take an extra button?
While I agree it would be fun and all, MCH has many, many far more importants problems to fix before tackling its mobility.

Just the Automaton Queen for example, completely automated, forgettable and the death of fun.
Have you ever had a moment of "Who is that idiot standing in the AoE...? Oh, it's my automaton Queen".

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If Mach were getting mobility, I'd want them to have teleport pads. N amount of teleports that the party activates to go to targeted point X from the Mach's casting point Y.

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Originally Posted by Lieri

Also MCH doesnt need to do an acrobatic jump when shooting. Remove that particular animation and it'd become my rdps main.

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I kind of have an issue with this as well... It worked before in SB because you didn't always see the fancy acrobatic animation in your combo because it depended on RNG.

By making the upgraded heated shots into the 1-2-3 filler combo, you see them all the time now, so it gets tiresome really fast... To me it would be either the acrobatic, or the fancy special effects.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

I kind of have an issue with this as well... It worked before in SB because you didn't always see the fancy acrobatic animation in your combo because it depended on RNG.

By making the upgraded heated shots into the 1-2-3 filler combo, you see them all the time now, so it gets tiresome really fast... To me it would be either the acrobatic, or the fancy special effects.

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Thought I was the only one who felt that way
I love the old clean shot animation but I also love the concept of a gun mage
not the fact that gauge (think thats what it was called) showed on your gun but the whole charge blast like PVP i loved it
not saying it has to go back to that but it wouldn't hurt to just give me clean shot back

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Originally Posted by Vatom

Thought I was the only one who felt that way
I love the old clean shot animation but I also love the concept of a gun mage
not the fact that gauge (think thats what it was called) showed on your gun but the whole charge blast like PVP i loved it
not saying it has to go back to that but it wouldn't hurt to just give me clean shot back

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The gauge was cool to have in some guns, but weird with some other models... thankfully there was an option to hide it... But tbh the actual mechanic for Gauss Barrel was so pointlessly bad, I don't really miss it.

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Originally Posted by Vatom

Thought I was the only one who felt that way
I love the old clean shot animation but I also love the concept of a gun mage
not the fact that gauge (think thats what it was called) showed on your gun but the whole charge blast like PVP i loved it
not saying it has to go back to that but it wouldn't hurt to just give me clean shot back

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Definitely not the only one that feels that way, it's just....way down the line of priorities.

I get that it's tough to do effects/animations for a job with a gun. Look at Bard: Red Arrow! Blue Arrow! Multiple Arrows! -snore-

Here's my take on what MCH could get in the future.

The ideas behind Grapple Gun and Bioblaster from this thread both sound cool in concept. If given the choice, I'd pick Grapple Gun to control similarly to Shikuchi.

MCH getting a mobility ability seems overdue, but here's an alternative I pitched to a friend once.

It's an ability I call "Rocket Jump", and it'd be functionally similar to Icarus/Aetherial Manipulation.

I could see both the Grapple Gun and Rocket Jump ideas being an OGCD on a 30s cooldown, and perhaps have a 20y to 30y range.

That said, I believe Hypercharge getting a change similar to Blood Weapon is inevitable.

MCH's reputation for being ping-unfriendly falls mostly on Hypercharge's short window, and I like to see it changed to 5 charges over 25s.

That, and carry over Wildfire's PVP changes to PVE. Just adjust that to be 25s, auto-detonate after 5 weaponskills, and deal AoE splash damage (with no falloff), in addition to buffing the potency of Wildfire at 5 stacks.

But...why stop there? +50 to +150 potency buffs across the board are the least they could do, too.

Going back to Bioblaster's DoT being ignited by Flamethrower (per a previous post), I think we could go a bit further. If not a DOT ignition, I think Bioblaster's DoT should also add that targets affected will take double or triple damage from Flamethrower.

As for Flamethrower, I think we could add a bit of a twist to it. Not only should it get buffed, but I think we can add a bit of UTILITY (gasp!) to it!

How, you ask? Why, setting your party on fire, of course!

If Flamethrower does not hit any enemies, it changes to a channeled, frontal cone AoE Magic Defense cooldown.

It'd grant a buff I call "Residual Warmth", which last 6s, grants 5% magic defense to all party members standing in the MCH's Flamethrower, and the buff timer resets with each tick of Flamethrower.

Yes, it's both utility and catharsis! Can't beat that with a stick.

As for other abilities, I think we could do one more change:
No more falloff damage from Chain Saw. That, and adding +100 to +150 potency to Reassemble's buff, in addition to the guaranteed Direct Crit. Meaning Chain Saw and Scattergun's AoE damage would get quite the buff.

Juicy, eh? Anyway, that's it for me for now.

Questions, comments, concerns? Fire away.

"Siri, play The Only Thing They Fear is You."

Teleporter/Rocket jump, the idea is there but does it fit with the thematic of a machinist?
Grapling gun is much closer to the thematic.
The problem, visually, is that the rocket jump would propel using a rocket on a very short distance.
Wouldn't it be visually awkward? Everytime a rocket jump is suggested, I just picture Diddy Kong's Rocket Barrels.

Wildfire needs a change. Copying the pvp function is a good start but it needs more. Wildfire is weak, visually disappointing and non existent gameplay wise.

Flamethrower trust me you'll regret suggesting Flamethrower interacting with BioBlaster.
Flamethrower itself is clunky and needs a complete rework. You may not realize it since it's barely used but if it fits in a 1/2 target rotation, you'll quickly realize the mistake.
FT ticks are unreliable, its damage are hard to track, the ability is simply not fun to use and much more effective as an emote, standing still isn't fun and not possible for a long period of time in harder content.

Settings your teammates on fire is nonsense and counter-intuitive.
If you have an ability that does damage OR utility, how do you think it will be used? 99.9% of the cases will be damage.
It's damage AND utility? "Oh guys please stand in my flamethrower so I can hit you and the boss(es)" + mechanics.
DRK are already complaning that TBN is tied to damage resources, let's not repeat it.

Chain saw best case scenario would be a rework, minimum is to change its name to Buzz saws and reduce the fall off as it's the only natural AoE in MCH kit.
It has nothing to do with Chain saw, many MCH players are disappointed with it.

Okay, the grapple gun and sniper rifle with cast time actually sound so cool though. I love those ideas!

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Teleporter/Rocket jump, the idea is there but does it fit with the thematic of a machinist?
Grapling gun is much closer to the thematic.
The problem, visually, is that the rocket jump would propel using a rocket on a very short distance.
Wouldn't it be visually awkward? Everytime a rocket jump is suggested, I just picture Diddy Kong's Rocket Barrels.

Wildfire needs a change. Copying the pvp function is a good start but it needs more. Wildfire is weak, visually disappointing and non existent gameplay wise.

Flamethrower trust me you'll regret suggesting Flamethrower interacting with BioBlaster.
Flamethrower itself is clunky and needs a complete rework. You may not realize it since it's barely used but if it fits in a 1/2 target rotation, you'll quickly realize the mistake.
FT ticks are unreliable, its damage are hard to track, the ability is simply not fun to use and much more effective as an emote, standing still isn't fun and not possible for a long period of time in harder content.

Settings your teammates on fire is nonsense and counter-intuitive.
If you have an ability that does damage OR utility, how do you think it will be used? 99.9% of the cases will be damage.
It's damage AND utility? "Oh guys please stand in my flamethrower so I can hit you and the boss(es)" + mechanics.
DRK are already complaning that TBN is tied to damage resources, let's not repeat it.

Chain saw best case scenario would be a rework, minimum is to change its name to Buzz saws and reduce the fall off as it's the only natural AoE in MCH kit.
It has nothing to do with Chain saw, many MCH players are disappointed with it.

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^ this all of this… yes. And double yes on the issues with flamethrower being integral to the kit again. Let us not repeat this mistake again.

It's interesting. Despite the overwhelming amount of complaints about job simplification across the board, the instant we see discussion of new actions it quickly switches over to talk about how there are 'too many buttons' already and how the jobs are 'difficult enough'. It discourages experimentation and a lends to more conservative approach to job design where things rarely change.

I do want to see more varied movement abilities in the game, and a 'rocket jump' in the FPS sense is a pretty interesting idea. It would be fun to have a job that could fire a ground target ability that knocks you away further from it based on proximity, as you could use it to reposition yourself quickly to anywhere in an arena if you were smart about it. That being said, most players would complain endlessly if this sort of thing showed up on a conventional job, just because it's a skillshot. Would make for a great addition to BLU for players looking for something different.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

It's interesting. Despite the overwhelming amount of complaints about job simplification across the board, the instant we see discussion of new actions it quickly switches over to talk about how there are 'too many buttons' already and how the jobs are 'difficult enough'. It discourages experimentation and a lends to more conservative approach to job design where things rarely change.

I do want to see more varied movement abilities in the game, and a 'rocket jump' in the FPS sense is a pretty interesting idea. It would be fun to have a job that could fire a ground target ability that knocks you away further from it based on proximity, as you could use it to reposition yourself quickly to anywhere in an arena if you were smart about it. That being said, most players would complain endlessly if this sort of thing showed up on a conventional job, just because it's a skillshot. Would make for a great addition to BLU for players looking for something different.

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Am I missing something? Who complained about difficulty or too many buttons here (especially on MCH lol)?

Most talk here is just surrounding the fact that it's a fairly niche ability for a job that needs a lot more. If MCH was like DRG with a really nice core design then sure, adding some frills sounds good. But adding an ability to MCH which other jobs already have is kind of "uninspiring" considering the position that MCH is in right now.

Now, if this were part of a bigger suggestion then I might be able to get on board. For example:


Change Chainsaw into... a chainsaw - Melee range line AoE that is actually a chainsaw that does more damage than it does now

Add Grappling hook - Ability that sticks into an enemy and deals minor damage, pulling you to it

Add "Blowback" - Pulls out your shotgun and deals damage while pushing you back

Then at least you have some synergy. It's basically just an anemic RDM melee combo, but it makes the original suggestion actually useful. Physical Ranged really doesn't have many issues with movement that would need to be "fixed" by just giving MCH Icarus/Thunderclap.

Changing Chain saw into an actual melee phase isn't complex either.

Makes Split Shot, Slug Shot and Clean shot changed into the Chainsaw melee actions during the phase.
Of course doing something else than 1->2->3 but have a 5 GCDs phase in which you would have, for example, to do 1->2->3->2->1.
It also prevent a button bloat issue! A problem MCH isn't even close to have!

The 1 2 3, as of now, feels completely disconnected from the rotation. I believe it would be interesting if they would evolve when using tools as "phases". I would love to see this applied to Flamethrower and/or Chainsaw.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Teleporter/Rocket jump, the idea is there but does it fit with the thematic of a machinist?

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Do nanabot turrets and Gurren Lagann robots? Macross Missile Storm weaponskills?

Mach's current visual identity is over the top cool tech. Teleports for party utility are cool tech. There's even precedent for it in the Diamond Weapon fight. Garlond's already done the legwork.

Machinist is closer to steampunk, not star trek. IDK where you are getting that from.

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

Machinist is closer to steampunk, not star trek. IDK where you are getting that from.

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The aesthetic of the tech doesn't limit what the tech can do, such as the teleporting gurenn lagann robot that teleports in to combat and teleports out.

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

Machinist is closer to steampunk, not star trek. IDK where you are getting that from.

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The holographic display effects, some attacks, LB3 and automaton queen warping in are very sci-fi-y...

Thats one ability Ive suggested multiple times. I'd love to see MCH lean more into the machinery side of the theme. I would love to see their utility brought back, the turrets back, rework flamethrower and AQ.

I'd love Machinist to have a rush in/rush out. Tbh all classes should have their own version.

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Originally Posted by GeorgeTheGamer89

I'd love Machinist to have a rush in/rush out. Tbh all classes should have their own version.

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Movement tool? Yes.
The same on all job? No.

All jobs would feel the same if they all add a dash-in and a dash-out.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Movement tool? Yes.
The same on all job? No.

All jobs would feel the same if they all add a dash-in and a dash-out.

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I mean, out of all the classes there's only about 4 that don't have any form of quick movement. So would hardly break the bank. I don't mean an attack, but something to enable quick movement. Like Elusive Jump, Aetherial Manipulation, En Avent. Etc.

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Originally Posted by GeorgeTheGamer89

I mean, out of all the classes there's only about 4 that don't have any form of quick movement. So would hardly break the bank. I don't mean an attack, but something to enable quick movement. Like Elusive Jump, Aetherial Manipulation, En Avent. Etc.

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It's just, in general, button bloat for button bloat's sake. At that point, just add an ability where if you double tap back/forward it dashes back/forward. Also, there are 4 that don't have it but many that only have 1 form of "to target friendly", "to target enemy", "to certain position" (leylines), "backwards", or "targeted". It's not "needed" on most jobs that have it already, it's definitely not necessary to have both in/out on all jobs.