Is it time for a second Dragonsong War?

Midgardsormr escaped his home planet after the invasion of the Omicrons and landed on Etheyris seeking refuge.
Apparently there he made a pact with Hydaelyn to become a sort of guardian for Etheyris, details are muddy but basically she needed help fighting the ascians.
The result is that the dragons lived relatively peacefully for many years until they had to fight the Allagan Empire, created by the ascians, and lost countless lives to them in the form of not only slaughter, capture, torture, sending some of the dragons into the void, but also turning some of them into primals and imprisoning them into an artificial moon.
Then they had to fight 1000 more years against the heaven's ward, also created by the ascians, until the warrior of light put an end to it, slaying nidhogg.
All of this in service to Hydaelyn, who so graciously allowed them refuge in Etheyris.

Now my question is, if someone were to reveal to Hraesvelgr, currently, that Hydaelyn had a tracker on the bird for over 13,000 years, wouldn't that spark a 2nd Dragonsong War, this time of all dragons against all non dragons?
-Hydaelyn knew the ascians were not the real enemy, yet had the dragons pit against them and sacrifice countless of their children to them
-Hydaelyn knew the dragons were capable of interstellar travel, as much as they were probably not immune to the song of the end, she could at least fashion some protection, let's call it the blessing of light, or echo, that protected them against turning into monstrosities
-Whatever the Omicrons did to the dragons, it would be at least comparable to what the Allagan Empire and the Heavens' Ward did to them, and while the Omicrons were at least evil and did it for a reason, the ascians who machinated all these atrocities against the dragons weren't even the real enemy

Well, whilst not exactly what you had in mind, I'd say there is definitely some story potential in Omega visiting Base Omicron or 'The Last Dregs' (to meet N-7000) and perhaps Midgardsormr visiting Reah Tahra.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SeiyaSoiya

Midgardsormr escaped his home planet after the invasion of the Omicrons and landed on Etheyris seeking refuge.
Apparently there he made a pact with Hydaelyn to become a sort of guardian for Etheyris, details are muddy but basically she needed help fighting the ascians.

---

The pact as I understand it was for Midgard to stand guard in Mor Dhona in exchange for his children to do as they wish.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SeiyaSoiya

The result is that the dragons lived relatively peacefully for many years until they had to fight the Allagan Empire, created by the ascians, and lost countless lives to them in the form of not only slaughter, capture, torture, sending some of the dragons into the void, but also turning some of them into primals and imprisoning them into an artificial moon.

---

The Allagans marched on Bahamut and Tiamats brood in Meracydia, and as far as we know Hydaelyn didn’t speak any of them. Things progressed as they did naturally.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SeiyaSoiya

Then they had to fight 1000 more years against the heaven's ward, also created by the ascians, until the warrior of light put an end to it, slaying nidhogg.
All of this in service to Hydaelyn, who so graciously allowed them refuge in Etheyris.

---

Once again there’s nothing to indicate that Hydaelyn compelled them to do so or that the dragons are in service to Her.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SeiyaSoiya

Now my question is, if someone were to reveal to Hraesvelgr, currently, that Hydaelyn had a tracker on the bird for over 13,000 years, wouldn't that spark a 2nd Dragonsong War, this time of all dragons against all non dragons?
-Hydaelyn knew the ascians were not the real enemy, yet had the dragons pit against them and sacrifice countless of their children to them
-Hydaelyn knew the dragons were capable of interstellar travel, as much as they were probably not immune to the song of the end, she could at least fashion some protection, let's call it the blessing of light, or echo, that protected them against turning into monstrosities
-Whatever the Omicrons did to the dragons, it would be at least comparable to what the Allagan Empire and the Heavens' Ward did to them, and while the Omicrons were at least evil and did it for a reason, the ascians who machinated all these atrocities against the dragons weren't even the real enemy

---

1. The Dragons knew as much as the rest of mankind, so it would be odd to hold them to account for that. More to the point, we don’t have evidence beyond the initial deal that Hydaelyn made the dragons do anything. And hell, the fact that Hydaelyn gave Ysayle a crystal of light should be factored in too. She was the one arguing for the dragons and Ishgardians to establish peace, a role she might not have been able to take on without Hydaelyns power.

2. The Dragons’ natural aetheric density gave them protection. And we shouldn’t presume the blessing would help against Dynamis.

3. The Ascians threatened to free Zodiark and complete the Rejoining, spelling doom for Hydaelyns plan and killing all those on the reflections. That’s enough to justify action. And yet even still the Allagan/Ishgard conflicts were not compelled by Her as far as we know.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

Well, whilst not exactly what you had in mind, I'd say there is definitely some story potential in Omega visiting Base Omicron or 'The Last Dregs' (to meet N-7000) and perhaps Midgardsormr visiting Reah Tahra.

---

Definitely agree.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EaraGrace

1. The Dragons knew as much as the rest of mankind, so it would be odd to hold them to account for that. More to the point, we don’t have evidence beyond the initial deal that Hydaelyn made the dragons do anything. And hell, the fact that Hydaelyn gave Ysayle a crystal of light should be factored in too. She was the one arguing for the dragons and Ishgardians to establish peace, a role she might not have been able to take on without Hydaelyns power.

2. The Dragons’ natural aetheric density gave them protection. And we shouldn’t presume the blessing would help against Dynamis.

3. The Ascians threatened to free Zodiark and complete the Rejoining, spelling doom for Hydaelyns plan and killing all those on the reflections. That’s enough to justify action. And yet even still the Allagan/Ishgard conflicts were not compelled by Her as far as we know.

---

Yeah, not only do we not really know the terms of Hydaelyn and Midgardsormr's deal, I don't think the dragons would consider it a betrayal that she called the Ascians the bad guys. Those guys are causing apocalypses, crunching planets, and were the direct confirmed cause of both Bahamut's death and Tiamat's imprisonment; if we find out that they also had a hand in the start of the Dragonsong war (which we don't know but wouldn't be in any way out of the question for that lot), then they're also responsible for the deaths of Ratatoskr, Lady Shiva, and eventually Nidhogg. Hell, you could argue they're responsible for Nidhogg's death anyway because they were manipulating Thordan by the time we got there. And they're also responsible for the hijacking of Nidhogg's Eyes for Shinryu, and I have no idea how Hraesvelgr feels about that but it's probably not 'happy'. I see no reason at all to believe Hraesvelgr would hear 'actually Hydaelyn's plan was a bit more complicated and the Ascians weren't the ultimate endgame foe' and go 'I'm mad enough about this to start a war'.

Especially because Hraesvelgr is, and I say this as kindly as I can about him... a highly passive, depressed sadsack. Even if he did think this was an egregious enough misstep to be angry about it, I think all he'd actually do with that is go have a depression-nap for a few decades.

And while you're right that we don't really have any direct evidence the Blessing does anything about dynamis corruption, we do have the example of Fordola. Presuming that the Resonance is also an artificial Blessing as well as an artificial Echo (which is basically the only way to make both Stormblood and Endwalker's takes on the subject track), we can look at her struggles not to turn as evidence that, yeah, the Blessing doesn't do dip to protect against that. It also feels like if that was a theory with in-universe evidence, it's something Omega would've considered in their EW story, so the fact they didn't gives more credence to the fact the Blessing wouldn't have helped.


Count me in as another person who thinks there'd be some interesting roots in Midgardsormr (or any of the still-around First Brood) visiting the dragons in Ultima Thule, though. I don't think Omega visiting the Omicrons would do much that Omega's quest didn't already do, but having one of the dragons go there would be an interesting time to explore characters that have been around, but haven't really had a lot of character moments.

I can't help but wonder what's going on over in Meracydia given its originally close ties to dragonkind and the centuries that passed since Tiamat was captured by the Allagans.

The only thing we do know is that a tower was raised there to summon Lunar Bahamut and temporarily add some dragons to the ranks of Telophoroi, with unknown effects on the local populace.

One point worth remembering is that when Alexander was summoned, it calculated out the outcomes of every possible timeline, including one in which it intervened to prevent the Seventh Umbral Calamity from ever happening. On review of all these, its final judgement was to preserve the existing timeline and remove itself from it by creating a time loop. By that same logic, you'd think that people would hold it responsible for all the bad things that ever happened in the universe, but people generally don't perceive things that way.

Most people don't enjoy being caught up in wars, and someone really keen on fighting rarely needs a good reason for doing so anyways. Mid seems like he's got much better things to be doing with his time, like taking cat naps in aetherically dense areas, and I can't fault him for that. Someday, when we retire from adventuring, I would love to go on a tour with him to visit all the top aether hotspots around the world.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyth

One point worth remembering is that when Alexander was summoned, it calculated out the outcomes of every possible timeline, including one in which it intervened to prevent the Seventh Umbral Calamity from ever happening. On review of all these, its final judgement was to preserve the existing timeline and remove itself from it by creating a time loop. By that same logic, you'd think that people would hold it responsible for all the bad things that ever happened in the universe, but people generally don't perceive things that way.

---

That's an interesting point; I've never really thought about why Alex never gets brought up here like that. I personally don't blame it because it was always thinking in terms of its own drain on aether; no matter what happened, it was always the problem, so Alexander can never act to prevent anything except itself. Even then, you would've thought that it could've used the time it was incontrovertibly, unavoidably alive to give us some useful info like 'carry white auracite more often', 'pose some guards around Asahi's corpse', or 'don't trust a word a woman named Misija ever says'.

Perhaps the reason Alexander didn't even do any of that was because there wasn't any guidance that would've led to a better outcome. We were already on the right path, as slim as our chances were, and no piece of advice or information was ever going to increase those chances.

Or maybe Alexander gets off scot-free around here because it's a cool robot that exists largely isolated from all other storylines, and not a woman who stands in moral opposition to the local favorite cute boy.

I mean if you really wanna pile on blame then the Sundering is also G'raha's fault for not traveling back that far to learn more about and prevent it, and the PC is themselves responsible for untold suffering because all life that currently exists and will exist in the future is a consequence of them ending Meteion's song (and suffering is part and parcel with life).

Venat / Hydaelyn gets a lot of flak because she's a matronly figure who believes in tough love despite her joie de vivre. Emet-Selch is a deadly tsundere / woobie combo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

Well, whilst not exactly what you had in mind, I'd say there is definitely some story potential in Omega visiting Base Omicron or 'The Last Dregs' (to meet N-7000) and perhaps Midgardsormr visiting Reah Tahra.

---

Yeeeeeeaaaah, ngl I really was thinking Endwalker would have... I dunno, just more regarding the lore they told us to pay attention to and go back and play (namely, Ishikawa told us to replay the Coils and Omega). I defs thought there was something off when instead of using the literal Ragnarok that was already present in the Coils and gift-wrapped for us by the long-dead Allagans instead of Sharlayan's Normandy SR-II clone. Also, per the dragons it seems like a missed opportunity to me that Middy didn't wake up or even stir at all in the presence of members of his people he didn't know personally. I thought he'd at least be curious, you know? Well, who knows. They recently added Omega's little quests that according to how they were advertised shouldn't be done and dusted just yet, so maybe Middy's time is almost up? Maybe he'll be the foci of the next quest set?

At the end of the day, I don't think any of the lore they told us to replay mattered at all in Endwalker. Unless I'm mistaken, none of the Coils lore especially couldn't be found elsewhere in game yet none of that content surfaced or was referenced in Endwalker at all.

Just one thread without this argument…

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Just one thread without this argument…

---

Hopefully people will forget about it once 6.2 goes into full swing

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SeiyaSoiya

Now my question is, if someone were to reveal to Hraesvelgr, currently, that Hydaelyn had a tracker on the bird for over 13,000 years, wouldn't that spark a 2nd Dragonsong War, this time of all dragons against all non dragons?
-Hydaelyn knew the ascians were not the real enemy, yet had the dragons pit against them and sacrifice countless of their children to them
-Hydaelyn knew the dragons were capable of interstellar travel, as much as they were probably not immune to the song of the end, she could at least fashion some protection, let's call it the blessing of light, or echo, that protected them against turning into monstrosities
-Whatever the Omicrons did to the dragons, it would be at least comparable to what the Allagan Empire and the Heavens' Ward did to them, and while the Omicrons were at least evil and did it for a reason, the ascians who machinated all these atrocities against the dragons weren't even the real enemy

---

As EaraGrace already covered, most of the battles that the dragons fought on Etheirys had nothing to do with Hydaelyn's pact with Midgardsormr, and instead were direct feuds between the Meracydian dragons and the Allagan Empire, and later Nidhogg and the Ishgardians.

Additionally, Midgardsormr is here in the first place because he fled his home star, ultimately because of Omega, but apparently it was under the combined assault from both the Omicrons and Meteion's despair. Even if Hydaelyn knew that was what he was fleeing, and could tell him where Meteion was hiding, that doesn't mean he would want to try to face her. He and his children are safe here, his home world is already destroyed, and he probably isn't capable of fighting Meteion anyway.

For all we know, maybe she did tell him and he wasn't interested in going.

(Am I remembering right that one of his children told us he described Etheirys as the last bastion of hope, or something to that effect? That would suggest he at least knows that the rest of the universe is lacking Zodiark's protection, which would further suggest that he also knows what Zodiark is providing protection against.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cleretic

That's an interesting point; I've never really thought about why Alex never gets brought up here like that. I personally don't blame it because it was always thinking in terms of its own drain on aether; no matter what happened, it was always the problem, so Alexander can never act to prevent anything except itself. Even then, you would've thought that it could've used the time it was incontrovertibly, unavoidably alive to give us some useful info like 'carry white auracite more often', 'pose some guards around Asahi's corpse', or 'don't trust a word a woman named Misija ever says'.

---

Alexander isn't really the direct-communication sort, but those bits of advice aren't necessarily useful anyway (except re. Misija perhaps). The Scions seem quite aware by now that they want auracite on hand whenever possible, and Urianger seems to be regularly producing new ones. And as for Fandaniel, firstly if he doesn't possess Asahi then he'll probably just find someone else, and secondly - as you said - it may be that it ultimately is just part of the precise path of events that will lead us to Meteion and successfully resolving the whole thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SentioftheHoukai

Yeeeeeeaaaah, ngl I really was thinking Endwalker would have... I dunno, just more regarding the lore they told us to pay attention to and go back and play (namely, Ishikawa told us to replay the Coils and Omega). I defs thought there was something off when instead of using the literal Ragnarok that was already present in the Coils and gift-wrapped for us by the long-dead Allagans instead of Sharlayan's Normandy SR-II clone.

---

I think playing those quests supported the lore we get in Endwalker while maintaining the "no direct follow-on unless the quest is mandatory for MSQ beforehand" rule.

The Binding Coil is key family history for the Leveilleurs and also for your own relationship with Alisaie. It also means you've seen the original Ragnaroks (which don't seem particularly ready to use) to get that callback.

And being familiar with Omega just means you're going to get a lot more recognition out of its appearances in Ultima Thule. The first clues I had of what was going on there were recognising the Omega-style architecture in the fort and then looking around and realising that this was the ruins of Midgardsormr's world as shown in the Alphascape battle with him.

And then of course there's getting to the Omicron base and recognising the architecture on a large scale, so you start connecting the dots with it, instead of it probably looking completely alien and unfamiliar to a non-Omega player.

It also establishes that Midgardsormr is currently sleeping off the encounter with Omega, not just absent for reasons unknown.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SentioftheHoukai

Also, per the dragons it seems like a missed opportunity to me that Middy didn't wake up or even stir at all in the presence of members of his people he didn't know personally.

---

Midgardsormr was never in the presence of unfamiliar dragons to my awareness. Are you thinking he's still travelling with us? His consciousness has withdrawn to Silvertear Lake and the minion is just decorative now. He says that when he leaves us in the Omega quests.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

Hopefully people will forget about it once 6.2 goes into full swing

---

The usual suspects are still up to it on General, so I doubt it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iscah

(Am I remembering right that one of his children told us he described Etheirys as the last bastion of hope, or something to that effect? That would suggest he at least knows that the rest of the universe is lacking Zodiark's protection, which would further suggest that he also knows what Zodiark is providing protection against.)

---

Yeah Vrtra (atleast that's who I believe said it.) said it after we saved everyone from the Tower of Zot before he told us to take heart and protect our friends. Same cutscene even since Y'shtola asked him if he or Midgard knew what started the final days.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rannie

Yeah Vrtra (atleast that's who I believe said it.) said it after we saved everyone from the Tower of Zot before he told us to take heart and protect our friends. Same cutscene even since Y'shtola asked him if he or Midgard knew what started the final days.

---

The only thing we can say for certain is that Midgardsormr is aware most if not all other worlds in the cosmos were dead or dying when he made his journey to Etheirys, not whether or not he knows why that is the case or why Etheriys was the exception.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cilia

The only thing we can say for certain is that Midgardsormr is aware most if not all other worlds in the cosmos were dead or dying when he made his journey to Etheirys, not whether or not he knows why that is the case or why Etheriys was the exception.

---

Let me rephrase then when Vrtra asked Midgard why that world midgard told Vrtra because it was the last hope. And Vrtra said that to the scions. As in confirming that one of middys children said that during the story.

Didn't mean to imply the stuff about zodiark I just get lazy when it comes to editing quotes while on a cellphone.

But yeah there was no reason except it was the last hope that was said to Vrtra when he asked

Are there still dragons left alive?

Yes?

Then yes we need another Dragonsong war.

Wait so how was escaping etheyris using the moonbunnies ship the last resort plan if everywhere in the universe is unprotected from zodiark

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SeiyaSoiya

Wait so how was escaping etheyris using the moonbunnies ship the last resort plan if everywhere in the universe is unprotected from zodiark

---

Keep in mind that Venat doesn't exactly have omniscient knowledge of all events in the universe; she probably doesn't know that Meteion's been taking her toll on all the other civilizations, too. All she knows is 'other civilizations exist out there, and a lot hit bad ends, but that still means other planets are habitable'.

However, it's still not a plan without benefits even with our knowledge; even if no planet is immune, Etheirys is being very specifically targeted by Meteion, to a degree so precise that its moon is spared. Traveling to another planet actually would avoid the worst of it, even if it wouldn't avoid all of it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cleretic

Keep in mind that Venat doesn't exactly have omniscient knowledge of all events in the universe; she probably doesn't know that Meteion's been taking her toll on all the other civilizations, too. All she knows is 'other civilizations exist out there, and a lot hit bad ends, but that still means other planets are habitable'.

However, it's still not a plan without benefits even with our knowledge; even if no planet is immune, Etheirys is being very specifically targeted by Meteion, to a degree so precise that its moon is spared. Traveling to another planet actually would avoid the worst of it, even if it wouldn't avoid all of it.

---

We also know from the new Omega quests that there's pan-galactic civilisation with a galactic language that are able to send messages to space, and from the Hildibrand questlines we know that aliens like PuPu exist. It's not all dead outside of Eitheirys.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zero-ELEC

We also know from the new Omega quests that there's pan-galactic civilisation with a galactic language that are able to send messages to space, and from the Hildibrand questlines we know that aliens like PuPu exist. It's not all dead outside of Eitheirys.

---

Omega knowing a pan-galactic language doesn't necessarily mean it's a current language.

If the writers are treating the message like a real radio broadcast (admittedly they probably aren't) then a message that we receive now from another star was not sent "just now" but years ago and has had to travel across space to reach us – at light speed, but the distance it has to cross is measured in light-years.

I would love to see an expansion take place in Meracydia so we can see whats been happening there... but I do not think we need another 'Dragonsong War'. There are other ways we can explore their lore without having to fight them, that song has already been played.


(I admit it could be because I am a Venat/Hydaelyn fan and people around here seem to hate her enough already without adding this to the fire haha.)

Given that every indication we have is that the dragons mostly want to live in peace and focus on raising thier broods, I very much doubt they are going to instigate a war based on something abstract as "Hydaelyn lied to us" with people who had no control or influence over that.

They already did a thousands year long war based on revenge and are over it, and that was when the actions taken against them were much more concrete and directly malicious.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KariTheFox

Given that every indication we have is that the dragons mostly want to live in peace and focus on raising thier broods, I very much doubt they are going to instigate a war based on something abstract as "Hydaelyn lied to us" with people who had no control or influence over that.

They already did a thousands year long war based on revenge and are over it, and that was when the actions taken against them were much more concrete and directly malicious.

---

And even then it wasn't entire population of dragons living there. One would but was held back by the soul of Shiva but many dragons just looked fondly on times prior to the betrayal and wished to get back to those simpler times. Frankly if not for Nidhogg being so bent on that vengence that he dragged it for so long the conflict would likely have resolved ages ago.