Why not give Kaiten effect of being able to instant cast Iaijutsu?

It's still action bloat, but at least it'll feel satisfying like Kaeshi Namikiri

I actually like the slight delay before Iaijutsu. Post-trait seems a fair better balance than pre-trait, but the delay feels iconic and therefore pretty satisfying.

As such, I wouldn't want to see Kaiten negate it, not that you'd ever keep Kaiten around just to provide a slight-dps-cost (relative to Shinten) means of doing an instant Iaijutsu (which would still be delayed by at least .6s plus one's round trip anyways, due to Kaiten's animation lock).

The way I interpret this? is having Iaijutsu be locked behind Kaiten.

Interesting... would definitely make our skill-kit more punishing then the original Kaiten similar to the Rabbit-head of shame for Ninja. Though I don't see how this improves our gameplay nor what it is supposed to fix. It also doesn't fun. If you mean every Iaijutsu cast having Kaiten animation pasted with it? that would just ruin the Iaijutsu animation of us casting. As for bargaining suggestion to bring back Kaiten? there are better suggestions.

Edit: Missread, Iaijutsu as a instantcast... I... that would remove every Slide-casting skill expression we ever done. And the momemtum to hit hard will probably feel even more empty. Kaeshi Setsugekka and Kaeshi Namikiri don't have it, but I disagree that Midare Setsugekka and Ogi Namikiri or Iaijutsu in general should work this way. It just gives more reasons to have our Job to be less skill-expressive... I like that pause before the animation and hit...

I miss our Samurai from 6.08, and that's what I want back, how it used to work. A simple Potency buff to our next Weapon-skill.

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

The way I interpret this? is having Iaijutsu be locked behind Kaiten.

Interesting... would definitely make our skill-kit more punishing then the original Kaiten similar to the Rabbit-head of shame for Ninja.

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I don't see how skill A making GCD-length skill B instant cast makes the nonetheless sub-GCD skill B "locked behind" skill A. That would only be situationally true of skills whose uptime cost is reduced by reduction to cast time, such as on RDM, so that they would be balanced around the shortened uptime cost. Here, though, the uptime cost is the same in either case.

But, let's try that out:

If Kaiten's to therefore go from almost never an option to truly never an option, then you're left only with a bloated Iaijutsu.
At that point you may as well just slap the 20 Kenki cost onto Iaijutsu itself, do the swish, then charge for .6 (post-trait) to 1.0 (pre-trait) seconds more, and use it there. Alas, that, too, costs fun, flavor, nuance, and flexibility alike.

I don't see any solution here short of the skill being of variable gauge-efficiency (such as per having a fixed percent damage bonus), costing less Kenki than one makes normally but near enough to feel like a significant margin consideration, and ultimately still being optional. That requires, in a nutshell, pretty much exactly the old Kaiten design, as Celest said above.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I don't skill A making GCD-length skill B instant cast being makes the nonetheless sub-GCD skill B locked behind skill A. This is only situationally true of skills whose uptime cost is reduced by reduction to cast time, such as on RDM.

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Yay I actually miss read the suggestion.

I genuinely read the suggestion as " Iaijutsu locked behind Kaiten ". No Kaiten cast? and Iaijutsu is locked, you can't cast it. I blame me misreading it on lack of sleep from replaying Chrono Trigger for hours =u=;

Kaiten and 6.08 Samurai's kit is just hard to beat. No matter what suggestions we come up with. SE's excuse be it Action or Button bloat just makes no sense to me. These are issues I just can't see existing with Samurai, how busy Kaiten made Samurai feel was actually fun. So to me? it's not about finding a solution, I just didn't see an issue with 6.08 Samurai and the solution is just simple, bring it back again.

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

Yay I actually miss read the suggestion.

I genuinely read the suggestion as " Iaijutsu locked behind Kaiten ".

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Yeah, I see how missing the word "instant" could do that.

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I just didn't see an issue with 6.08 Samurai and the solution is just simple, bring it back again.

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More a fan of pre-EW SAM, myself, with TG being available for 5s after Iaijutsu or even indefinitely (just being replaced with the next Iaijutsu), a second charge of MKSS only (not TG), AoE falloff trait on Shoha, a Fuga buff, and Namikiri then slapped atop as a separate 2-minute CD (or available per 3 Shoha casts, in kind), but... yeah.

Let's make the caster melee... Into a non caster melee?
Do you guys want every job to play the same?

I've seen a lot of bad suggestions but this has to be the worst one. Iaijutsus and the build-up behind them is a huge part of Samurai, and I know that Square doesn't understand this but I'm surprised players don't either

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Originally Posted by Hezhi

Let's make the caster melee... Into a non caster melee?
Do you guys want every job to play the same?

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Didn’t think we would talk about healer in a samurai thread./s

Or.... Kaiten can do exactly what it did before it was taken away? Why compromise with poor alternatives?

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Originally Posted by Karious

Or.... Kaiten can do exactly what it did before it was taken away? Why compromise with poor alternatives?

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Or if the crit-variance is oh-so-horrible that it absolutely had to go, only apply the critical boost to the base damage instead of the 50% boost.

There's just so many better ways to handle this than the nuclear solution, including not doing anything.

I appreciate people trying to come up with SOMETHING to fix this, anyway. But what I don't understand, truly, is how Samurai was hard as it was, before this miserable, loathsome change. I wouldn't have minded a few abilities being combined into one button - stuff like that. I don't like too many buttons - fair enough. But it wasn't one of the harder classes. I have FAR more trouble remembering what to do on my ninja, which, granted, I don't play often. I'm not patient enough to focus on my original black mage - but Samurai, I thought, was pretty much perfect. The new stuff seemed a bit - unnecessary, perhaps. Other than that, I still consider the Kaiten removal and think WHY?

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Originally Posted by Ceridwen

I appreciate people trying to come up with SOMETHING to fix this, anyway. But what I don't understand, truly, is how Samurai was hard as it was, before this miserable, loathsome change. I wouldn't have minded a few abilities being combined into one button - stuff like that. I don't like too many buttons - fair enough. But it wasn't one of the harder classes. I have FAR more trouble remembering what to do on my ninja, which, granted, I don't play often. I'm not patient enough to focus on my original black mage - but Samurai, I thought, was pretty much perfect. The new stuff seemed a bit - unnecessary, perhaps. Other than that, I still consider the Kaiten removal and think WHY?

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Playing the job wasn't the hard part. Designing around the ability we're all clamoring about was the difficult part according to one translated statement.

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Originally Posted by Karious

Or.... Kaiten can do exactly what it did before it was taken away? Why compromise with poor alternatives?

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This. We don’t need to compromise with some totally unrelated action behavior; just add Kaiten back.

If Kaiten’s behavior theoretically becomes obsolete with 7.0 changes that replace that bit of job complexity with some newer job mechanic that appears in its place yet still at earlier levels, that shouldn’t logically lead to the not-replaced removal of Kaiten in Patch 6.1 (not 7.0) changes.