Amaurot: Why there? (Spoilers ShB and EW)

[SPOILERS for Shadowbringers and Endwalker]

Apologies if this has been discussed already. And if so, could someone please point me to the discussion?

Why did Emet Selch recreate Amaurot in the Tempest on the First instead of somewhere hidden on the Source/Etheirys where it would have been originally?

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Originally Posted by Mikita

[SPOILERS for Shadowbringers and Endwalker]

Apologies if this has been discussed already. And if so, could someone please point me to the discussion?

Why did Emet Selch recreate Amaurot in the Tempest on the First instead of somewhere hidden on the Source/Etheirys where it would have been originally?

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He recreated it on the First because both him and the WoL happened to be on the First for the whole ShB storyline when he shot the Exarch, kidnapped him, and then went under the sea to mope while waiting for us.

All of the Shards have the exact same geography and the ruins of Amaurot would have been copied to every Shard.

Another thing to note too is that it was mentioned that the ruins probably don’t exist on the Source anymore and were probably destroyed by repeated Calamities. Emet-Selch’s “recreation” is just a shiny, magical veneer over the existing ruins and Thancred mentions trying to get through a window that looks normal but underneath, the actual window is encrusted with marine junk and won’t open.

There seem to have been a couple of factors.

Firstly the genuine ruins are there, while apparently they may no longer exist in the Source due to extra disturbance from the various calamities. If he's going to hide out somewhere in the First, it might as well be "home".

Additionally, it's noted that he can't afford to flee into the rift while he holds the Exarch captive, so he does have to stay in the First for now.

And of course the First is also where the WoL is right now, and the whole illusion is for their benefit – and he wants the WoL to unleash all that Light energy back into the First if they can't control it, so there's no point sending them elsewhere.

I also don't think, at a story level, we're really supposed to be able to freely teleport between worlds. Aside of the specific dialogue explaining why we can still teleport (which may simply be for gameplay's sake, as they can't functionally hold up our access to other parts of the game), everything else points to us being semi-permanently in the First once summoned: we send messages back via Feo Ul rather than visiting for ourselves, we are transported back via the magic mirror at the end, and there is talk of the Exarch using his spell to summon us again when we are needed. In 5.3 we again use the mirror to return to the Source, and Ryne mentions the tower becoming a symbol of our link to their world, suggesting we continue to have to travel through it rather than simply warping in.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Thancred mentions trying to get through a window that looks normal but underneath, the actual window is encrusted with marine junk and won’t open.

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He just says the window doesn't work, and the magic might not extend to making it actually function, but doesn't say anything about why. It's just as possible that it's a solid wall (decorated with fake windows) created where the real underlying one is in ruins.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I also don't think, at a story level, we're really supposed to be able to freely teleport between worlds. Aside of the specific dialogue explaining why we can still teleport, everything else points to us being semi-permanently in the First once summoned: we send messages back via Feo Ul rather than visiting for ourselves, we are transported back via the magic mirror at the end, and there is talk of the Exarch using his spell to summon us again when we are needed. In 5.3 we again use the mirror to return to the Source, and Ryne mentions the tower becoming a symbol of our link to their world, suggesting we continue to have to travel through it rather than simply warping in.

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If that was the case, we wouldn't need to ask Lyna for the keys to the Ocular, since we would appear in it.

Thank you both!

I think I'm missing some plot points about why Emet Selch was on the First in the first place.
He was in Garlemald a bit prior, instigating various events in the Empire. But I had it in my mind that he just followed the WoL to the First and could more or less travel between the shards freely. I guess I need to review the points about the Exarch and Emet Selch.

Emet went to the First originally to tip it towards the 8th Umbral Calamity/Rejoining (this was initially pointed at the end of SB where he realized that Black Rose was already aspected to Light and light aether was already flowing to the Source from the First, and so that Light would interact with Black Rose easily, allowing it to be Rejoined, so he quickly departed from the Source, outright telling Varis that "they will never meet again" - insinuiating that Varis would soon be dead due to the impending Calamity he was about to unleash).

He didn't expect however for the WoL and the Archons to end up there as well however, not to mention the sudden appearence of the Crystal Tower from the Source, led by a mysterious figure whose identity he could not determine, but as his MO, he quickly adjusted his plans to take advantage of it, making a giant glamour of Amaurot in it's final days over the ruins.

Really ShB's whole storyline is basically Emet playing Xanatos speed chess with the WoL, the Crystal Exarch and the Archons. He ultimately loses though because one of the players he initially outplayed and regarded as lost ages ago teamed up with the WoL and outplayed him. ;) And his Amaurot reconstruction was all just one of many tools he made for that plan.

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Originally Posted by Alenore

If that was the case, we wouldn't need to ask Lyna for the keys to the Ocular, since we would appear in it.

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We don't need to ask Lyna for the keys to the Ocular – the gate guard shows us in and out.

Lyna has the key to the inner side chamber, the Umbilicus, which is not part of the no-teleport world crossing route.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

We don't need to ask Lyna for the keys to the Ocular – the gate guard shows us in and out.

Lyna has the key to the inner side chamber, the Umbilicus, which is not part of the no-teleport world crossing route.

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Ah, you're right. My bad :)

Honestly, the quesiton of 'why make Fake Amaurot on the First' hits a puzzling point because we don't actually know when he made it, and the potential answers to that question vary immensely based on when.

It's entirely possible he made that thing ten minutes before we got there; there's no real indication of when it was made. If he made it for us, obviously he'd bait the hook and then put it where he's guiding us, because he wants us to hear and cry about the story and feel bad for him and his extremely dead people. If it's there because we're there, why would it be anywhere else?

However, that might not be what happened; it might be that he made Fake Amaurot down there yonks ago to hang out in it by himself, and we happened to wind up in the First where it was by coincidence. As mentioned, its physical location in the Tempest is no coincidence, that's where it was actually located, so then the question is 'why'd he put it in the First?' If he wasn't making it to be showy and theatrical like we saw it, then the Source would've been the worst place to put it, since the people working against the Ascians would've been most likely to find it there and get some sabotage going. After that, we hit the natural storytelling answer: if he can't put it on the Source, but the protagonists are meant to find it, then obviously he put it in the place it can be that the protagonists do go--so, the First.

Every location on the First has parallels in the Source, which makes sense, because they started out the same and then diverged 12000 years ago. In order to get to the Tempest, Bismarck dives into the waters just off the coast of Kholusia. We know that Kholusia is the equivalent of Limsa, which makes the Tempest the equivalent of the Indigo Deep. This is further supported by the fact that the Ondo are the equivalent of the Sagahin. If you went for a dive into the Indigo Deep, I wouldn't be surprised if you found that the ruins of Amaurot on the Source as well.

There's a really interesting shot of Amaurot just after you've fought with Emet which shows all the buildings in ruins, with just the structural remains in place. Given that the buildings and people that we see are made from creation magic, it's likely that he simply built his reconstructed city upon the ruins of the original. He's unlikely to have picked a completely fresh location, especially if nostalgia was a motivating factor.

As for the significance of the First - that's a very lengthy discussion in itself involving Eden and the Shadowbringers role quests. Mitron tells you that when the Flood of Darkness occurred on the Thirteenth, it had ripple effects on all the shards. But the shard that was most affected by the change was the First, which pushed it precariously towards the opposite alignment, Light. The Ascians have been trying to rejoin the First since then. Mitron and Loghrif were initially assigned to the task, but when they failed, it fell to Emet and Elidibus to try and get the job done. That's the quick answer, although I can give a more detailed one if you like.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Every location on the First has parallels in the Source, which makes sense, because they started out the same and then diverged 12000 years ago. In order to get to the Tempest, Bismarck dives into the waters just off the coast of Kholusia. We know that Kholusia is the equivalent of Limsa, which makes the Tempest the equivalent of the Indigo Deep. This is further supported by the fact that the Ondo are the equivalent of the Sagahin. If you went for a dive into the Indigo Deep, I wouldn't be surprised if you found that the ruins of Amaurot on the Source as well.

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Theoretically yes, but the First lacked the constant Calamities the Source had (one of which was a global earthquake - the one that obliterated the Allag), so as Y'shtola actually states during ShB's storyline, any remaining ruins of Amaurot on the Source would have been obliterated long ago with successive Calamities creating sesmic upheavals (I mean, little of even Sil'dih exists mere centuries after it fell, so there's not much to nil chance of Amaurotine ruins surviving on the Source unfortunately. It's possible though the remaining Shards may have similar ruins though to the First, but I'm just musing here.

Ah, I have the quote. 'City of the Ancients', Shadowbringers MSQ:

'It is my theory that these structures are remnants of a time before history - of a star that was yet whole and unbroken. Such traces in the Source would have been obliterated by the succession of the Umbral Calamities, but here in the First they might have remained untouched for millennia...'

That being said, it's worth noting that this line occurs after surveying the building fragments of the Ondo Cups, well before you get to Amaurot proper. The walls are also remarkably resilient to the mythril knife you try to take scrapings with. We also know that the Sagahin have their own city at the bottom of the Indigo Deep, so they might well have moved into the remnants of Amaurot, similar to the Ondo.

Either way, I wouldn't rule it out completely, as it just comes down to the writers' discretion if we ever end up visiting the area.

I also find the notion of the Ancient cities being completely scoured from the Source a touch improbable with how it was noted they were unusually durable compared to any manner of material known to the people of the present.

I suppose it's possible the Sundering may have played a role in that because we have no idea exactly how the world itself was affected by the event and it may have resulted in calamity-level destruction for all we know.

Because one of the ruins of Amaurot was nearby. Meaning the original was in that area. Probably not under water, but in that area.

Also Hades being fond to darkness. It would be the best place for him to work alone without being bothered by simpletons. Specially in a world flooded with light.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I also find the notion of the Ancient cities being completely scoured from the Source a touch improbable with how it was noted they were unusually durable compared to any manner of material known to the people of the present.

I suppose it's possible the Sundering may have played a role in that because we have no idea exactly how the world itself was affected by the event and it may have resulted in calamity-level destruction for all we know.

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At the same time the buildings were destroyed during the final days. So it's not like they can't be, you just can't take a knife made of a common metal and get so much as some shavings.

It is left vague how much time had passed from Zodiark's summoning up until the Sundering, so I suppose it's also possible they may have simply not even gotten around to repairing/rebuilding the majority of their settlements, too.

The original Final Days were like a combination of all the calamities and worse thanks to the addition of meteor showers and rampaging terminus beasts.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I also find the notion of the Ancient cities being completely scoured from the Source a touch improbable with how it was noted they were unusually durable compared to any manner of material known to the people of the present.

I suppose it's possible the Sundering may have played a role in that because we have no idea exactly how the world itself was affected by the event and it may have resulted in calamity-level destruction for all we know.

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Sure, they're unusually durable, but are they 'survives seven Calamities' unusually durable? Even the non-magicked-up ruins in the Tempest were barely intact. Combine that with the fact the one location we've got is relatively close to Eorzea, which we can reasonably assume is the epicenter for most Calamities going by the fact they literally set their clocks by it, and yeah, it's probably gotten wrecked REAL hard.

Also, we can't forget that the End of Days itself gives us a pretty good sample of how much punishment those buildings can take, and frankly I don't see that unusual durability counting for much there.

I wonder where in the source Elpis would have been located at.

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Originally Posted by Nav_Fae

I wonder where in the source Elpis would have been located at.

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I have this head canon that it's in Labyrinthos since it's the only other place we've seen the flowers in Etheirys so far.

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Originally Posted by Yvreux

I have this head canon that it's in Labyrinthos since it's the only other place we've seen the flowers in Etheirys so far.

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That doesn't work though given Labyrinthos is underground, and was stated was constructed in recent times inside an extinct volcanic cavern complex, where as Elpis was a series of floating islands. The flowers blooming there isn't much help either as the whole thing is basically a conservatory of every known plant and animal species on the Source so it's no wonder it even includes a sample of the Elpis flowers (which in the present day were known as 'Heartblooms').

Elidibus incidentally stated when he was spoken to in the Umbilicus that "scarcely a trace remains" of Elpis in the present day, so it's most likely it no longer exists at all like Amaurot, but... the Three Great Continents map does have a very suspicious set of unidentified floating islands just to the north of Garlemald's capital (and which are not concealed by the cloud cover that convinently blankets everything else on Ilsabard other than Garlemald's capital city), that has never been explained.... so...... *puts on darksteel foil hat*

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Originally Posted by Yvreux

I have this head canon that it's in Labyrinthos since it's the only other place we've seen the flowers in Etheirys so far.

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The most likely explanation is that the 'Heartbloom' (Elpis) flowers were brought to the underground facility at Labyrinthos by the Gleaners for study. Which makes sense, because you find them out on the hill by Meryall Agronomics, where the Gleaners are stacking crates of seeds and saplings. The botanist there tells you that it grows in several places and has different names in different cultures.

Elidibus seems to think that not even a ruin of Elpis remains, so perhaps it was destroyed during the Final Days. That's not to say that there couldn't be some particularly deep section of Pandaemonium out there in the present, buried under Labyrinthos. That would be a fairly fitting way of bringing things full circle.

As far as why Amaurot and why for us to find on the first - I think it’s possible Emet was feeling more than a little nostalgic after recognizing our soul. Pure speculation, but perhaps he was testing our WOL to see if his old pal Azem might get shaken awake by a familiar setting, and a few familiar faces… (I’m not sure Hyth was an accident, as much as maybe a un-gentle prod by Emet to see if there was any Azem left in us).

It's hard to say for sure. For good or ill, Emet is primarily motivated by his sense of duty to Amaurot above everything else. When you talk to Mitron during Eden's Promise, he explains that when Ardbert killed both Loghrif and himself in their combined Ascian prime form, the resulting Flood of Light warped his flesh into the first sin eater, Eden. He was subsequently trapped in a motionless state for the next hundred years, only capable of feeble whispering. When asked why Emet didn't free him from this locked-in state, Mitron's response is:

'Perhaps he could have, if such had been his wish. Far easier, however, to simply find another piece of my fractured soul to replace me. From his perspective, there was no need to intervene and potentially disturb with the balance of aether. And so here I remained.'

I don't think that nostalgia overrides what Emet perceives as his duty. I'm sure that he wanted to tell the story of his people and their legacy, but I doubt that the specific nature of the player character's soul mattered all that much in the end, especially when there are other Azem fragments out there. His main purpose in Shadowbringers to rejoin the First, and to achieve that, he needs the player character to become a Lightwarden, regardless of whose soul fragment they bear.

Mitron attempts something similar to what you suggested by re-enacting the fight between Ardbert's team and Cylva the Shadowkeeper (which is why the E10S boss uses her greatsword) in order to get Loghrif to remember her past. That being said, his end goal is to create a timeless paradise free from imperfection where he can live with Loghrif for all eternity.

Granted, when she rejects this, he forcibly enters into Ascian Prime form with her against her will and starts destroying all the memories of her current life. So it doesn't look like the Ascians need to be all that subtle about reawakening old memories when they choose to be.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I don't think that nostalgia overrides what Emet perceives as his duty. I'm sure that he wanted to tell the story of his people and their legacy, but I doubt that the specific nature of the player character's soul mattered all that much in the end, especially when there are other Azem fragments out there. His main purpose in Shadowbringers to rejoin the First, and to achieve that, he needs the player character to become a Lightwarden, regardless of whose soul fragment they bear.

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The Lightwarden thing did seem to be more of a Plan B, given how disappointed he was in our failure to withstand the light. Not entirely sure what Plan A would have been, but his actions during Shadowbringers suggest to me that he was actually looking for a way out of his duty somehow. He certainly wasn't feeling it anymore.

In regards to Amaurot, I do believe he mainly built it for his own pleasure, probably long before we show up in the first. For one, I vaguely remember the Ondos mentioning that this wasn't the first time the "lights went up" in the ruins, indicating that he might have been visiting there before on occasion.

Secondly, he didn't actually want us to go there, at least not like that. He was pretty clear that we were only supposed to go there once we fully transformed into a lightwarden, and probably assumed that we wouldn't have been able to do so before anyhow, given how it was at the bottom of the sea. He was quite annoyed at the fact that we and the scions showed up there with all our faculties intact, and dare say almost a bit embarrassed for others to witness his little indulgence down there.

As to the exact location of Amaurot, I kinda believe it wasn't actually down there originally. All depictions of Amaurot indicate that it is apparently pretty.. high, what with the bottomless chasms everywhere. In the final cutscene after the Hades fight the ruins are even indicated to be above the clouds. So I guess it might have actually been a floating city similar to Elpis, that crashed into the sea at some point after its destruction.

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Originally Posted by VigilanteXII

The Lightwarden thing did seem to be more of a Plan B, given how disappointed he was in our failure to withstand the light. Not entirely sure what Plan A would have been, but his actions during Shadowbringers suggest to me that he was actually looking for a way out of his duty somehow. He certainly wasn't feeling it anymore.

In regards to Amaurot, I do believe he mainly built it for his own pleasure, probably long before we show up in the first. For one, I vaguely remember the Ondos mentioning that this wasn't the first time the "lights went up" in the ruins, indicating that he might have been visiting there before on occasion.

Secondly, he didn't actually want us to go there, at least not like that. He was pretty clear that we were only supposed to go there once we fully transformed into a lightwarden, and probably assumed that we wouldn't have been able to do so before anyhow, given how it was at the bottom of the sea. He was quite annoyed at the fact that we and the scions showed up there with all our faculties intact, and dare say almost a bit embarrassed for others to witness his little indulgence down there.

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Emet actually did want the WoL to go there, he outright tells you that in the cutscene after defeating Innocence in fact - he was annoyed not because the WoL showed up at Amaurot in the first place (remember, he outright invited them there, and the entire reconstruction was set up specifically to interact with the WoL themselves personally, like the AI that operated the lift from Achora Heights), he was grumpy because they didn't show up alone and emotionally and pyschologically broken.

They instead appeared with the Scions and Ryne in tow, showing that they were continuing to fight to the end for what they believed in, and thus not succumb to the light and become the most powerful Lightwarden, his plan B, or, more bitterly, also derailing his plan A, which was Emet wanting the WoL to accept that they were wrong to follow Venat's beliefs and vindicate Emet's superioity complex that the Unsundered's goals were right (and presumedly join him, although he never offered that in so many words, it's what the other Ascians insinuaited over the years - specifically Lahabrea).

It's why he drags the Scions through the themepark ride of the Final Days of Amaurot, to try and get them to see his side of the story and accept his side as the superior arguement and then join him (remember, his society regarded rhetorical debate as a pinnacle of culture), or break down in defeat and accept destruction (as in succumb to the enemies in there anyway).

Of course, because they didn't just curbstomp the enemies like Azem would have done, but still continued to bitterly struggle on even despite their chances of success slipping further and further away, he considered the WoL and the Scions "unworthy". (Which is also directly referenced in EW after all as arguing Venat's side as being actually the 'right one', but I digress).

Given how sentimental Emet is, he more than likely created Amaurot after he saw the WoL. The Ondo also indicate that the city appearing is recent. I think seeing the Azem soul again threw Emet for a loop and not much of anything he did after that point was the most rational.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Given how sentimental Emet is, he more than likely created Amaurot after he saw the WoL. The Ondo also indicate that the city appearing is recent. I think seeing the Azem soul again threw Emet for a loop and not much of anything he did after that point was the most rational.

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I feel the ruins were always there but the phantoms were recently created. Considering only Hythos has any memory and the Crystal of Azem that isn't meant to exist, it's obvious the Amaurot was created to indoctrinate the WoL and remind him of his duty as Azem. After all, it is the first time in 12000 years that Emet found Azems soul. What really throws me off his how neither Elidibus and Lahabrea recognized us as Azem, the new old friend. I'm willing to give the devs a bone and say that us being Azem was probably not in the story script back in ARR and HW.

It's never been stated that Lahabrea and Elidibus could see the color of souls. The only reason Emet and Hythlodeaus could tell the pc was Azem was because of that ability. Lahabrea and Elidibus' abilities most likely run in other directions.

Actually iirc it was said that Lahabrea was good with creation magic and then over the years it's possible that he started to go a bit cuckoo or guano possibly when his wife died as well as losing power from constantly switching bodies over the 12k years.

As for elidibus it was said by then he was already losing memories and such so he could t even remember Azem let alone who it could possibly be.

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Originally Posted by Nav_Fae

Considering only Hythos has any memory and the Crystal of Azem that isn't meant to exist, it's obvious the Amaurot was created to indoctrinate the WoL and remind him of his duty as Azem.

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I think the fact that Amaurot was populated with shades, including that of his best friend, would suggest it was more an act of sentimentality especially as doing such a thing was ludicrous to him in Elpis. Had he wanted, he theoretically could've forcefully used the memory crystal to raise Azem, but judging by his recruitment of Amon to be Fandaniel that's not how he operates (nor did he force the crystals upon Elidibus). Azem also wouldn't have the same duty as the Ascians since they defected from the Convocation, so there's no telling what they'd even be like given the situation.

Lahabrea was gone too soon, but there's a hint Elidibus recognized Azem in the cutscene where he meets the WoL in the Crystarium. As he approaches he blinks (literally a blink and you miss it moment) and sees black-masked Azem standing before him.