Rework SAM LB

It was a fun novelty week 1. It's trash now.

Scripts where you get CC'd (poly, silence, bind) the instant Kuzushi buff is applied is so broken. Scripts are never going to get fixed. Having to wait till poly/silence is used before you use Chiten isn't counterplay. It's just bad design.

Not to mention it takes forever to build an LB bar make it almost useless all fight.

Am I the only one who thinks it's trash?

Nah, it's fine. SAM with LB has a lot of power, because if they have LB available you have to be careful for them to pop Chiten at an unexpected time. Them doing that and you not having a stun ready will get your team wiped out. It's a good way of passively forcing out CC. You can pop Chiten and not even try to LB, just because the second they see Chiten they are either going to have to CC lock you, or completely ignore you. That's CC not going on your friends, or it's several seconds of you doing whatever you feel like doing.

Scripts are a thing but they are rare, and they don't do anything that can't be done by human hands. Focus macros and keybinds would allow a WHM to sheep you just as quickly as a script would do it.

I think SAM as a class needs some help, because there's not really much reason to take them over any other melee right now. But I don't think their LB really needs anything different.

CC + focus on you = dedge. That's not a plus side of Chiten. Actually making it better for the opposing team since focusing is always better, and you're giving them an easy indicator.

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Focus macros and keybinds would allow a WHM to sheep you just as quickly as a script would do it.

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nothing is as fast as a script. I've seen skyshatter be stunned as a DRG falls from the sky resulting in a wasted LB.

Had a match a while back where we wiped out the enemy team and the SAM got back first because he died first. The bloke was standing on the point like "come get me" with his LB gauge full. My team rushed in and I knew what was about to happen so I put the marker on his name on the enemy list so they could clearly see he was at full LB. Did they stop and reconsider what they were about to do? Nope. I mashed the "Fall Back!" quick chat, but it was way too late. SAM used Chiten, popped Guard to make sure he survived the ensuing gang-bang, then one-shoted them all. I didn't even try to stop him as his teammates arrived and they ran the point to the goal, I just stood there clapping for him.

That said, I still think it's a load of shite when I get killed by a SAM LB when I'm not even targeting them because I threw an AOE onto their mate who happened to be standing somewhat close to them. :(

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

Nah, it's fine. SAM with LB has a lot of power, because if they have LB available you have to be careful for them to pop Chiten at an unexpected time. Them doing that and you not having a stun ready will get your team wiped out. It's a good way of passively forcing out CC. You can pop Chiten and not even try to LB, just because the second they see Chiten they are either going to have to CC lock you, or completely ignore you. That's CC not going on your friends, or it's several seconds of you doing whatever you feel like doing.

Scripts are a thing but they are rare, and they don't do anything that can't be done by human hands. Focus macros and keybinds would allow a WHM to sheep you just as quickly as a script would do it.

I think SAM as a class needs some help, because there's not really much reason to take them over any other melee right now. But I don't think their LB really needs anything different.

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Please don't listen to this guy, I've been seeing him in just about every forum saying how nothing is broken. You can argue but he doesn't seem to hold knowledge of what he's talking about. He was just arguing with others in another forum saying arguing about RPR that he's never played as and now educating you on SAM when he's already given me a list of what jobs he played. Don't waste your time, please.

Sam’s LB is in a good position. They see no need to change it. Just lol, if that LB is full I don’t even mess with a SAM. Like nope, I’m out…

The Kuzushi mechanic doesn't feel compatible with a game where so much of our kit has cleaves against someone besides our focus target. Just because counterplay exists, doesn't make it fun.

Samurai isn't too bad as a melee DPS, but its major drawback is that is pretty much a gimmick DPS at the same time. Server tick is very much the bane of this class, its LB being reliant on 3 seconds of a debuff attached to a 5 second defence buff in order to apply it in the first place. If the server feels generous, this can be a massive boon with little downsides. But more often it's likely players will run into issues where they apply the buff, get hit once, have to wait until they see the debuff applied, and then when using the LB, there's a chance that the end result will be as if their opponent isn't debuffed at all, and now with the whole opposing team focusing on them they basically waste their LB and their life for nothing, leading to much confusion and annoyance both for and against the class.

This is further exasperated by the long cooldown for the LB, the primary focus of the class's kit, while its other major moves can hurt a fair bit per hit, the cast times of the charged moves can be unforgiving if the enemy moves in the slightest (losing track of your target mid-cast is a common occurrence, even if they're right beside you). In short, while the class clearly has a technical aspect that can be satisfying to utilize, it suffers to issues outside of its actual kit deficiencies.

So basically, you play as a tank with a surprise gotcha mechanic, but enjoy none of the actual staying power of a proper tank (something some tanks can help with, but not always) and are essentially at the mercy of server ticks actually registering buff and debuff in time before the actual strike of Zantetsuken, savvy players know how to avoid this and lock the samurai down, and compared to classes like Monk it can come off as unreliable but potent if used correctly. It's viable, but it is a gamble, more than many other melee DPS jobs.

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Originally Posted by KhudusQestir

Please don't listen to this guy, I've been seeing him in just about every forum saying how nothing is broken. You can argue but he doesn't seem to hold knowledge of what he's talking about. He was just arguing with others in another forum saying arguing about RPR that he's never played as and now educating you on SAM when he's already given me a list of what jobs he played. Don't waste your time, please.

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You should try actually providing rebuttal instead of nonsense. If you think I don't know what I'm talking about, prove it by providing meaningful rebuttal. Failing to do so is effectively admitting you can't.

The only rework SAM needs is being nerfed so I can laugh at weebs.

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Originally Posted by Novani

Samurai isn't too bad as a melee DPS, but its major drawback is that is pretty much a gimmick DPS at the same time. Server tick is very much the bane of this class, its LB being reliant on 3 seconds of a debuff attached to a 5 second defence buff in order to apply it in the first place. If the server feels generous, this can be a massive boon with little downsides. But more often it's likely players will run into issues where they apply the buff, get hit once, have to wait until they see the debuff applied, and then when using the LB, there's a chance that the end result will be as if their opponent isn't debuffed at all, and now with the whole opposing team focusing on them they basically waste their LB and their life for nothing, leading to much confusion and annoyance both for and against the class.

This is further exasperated by the long cooldown for the LB, the primary focus of the class's kit, while its other major moves can hurt a fair bit per hit, the cast times of the charged moves can be unforgiving if the enemy moves in the slightest (losing track of your target mid-cast is a common occurrence, even if they're right beside you). In short, while the class clearly has a technical aspect that can be satisfying to utilize, it suffers to issues outside of its actual kit deficiencies.

So basically, you play as a tank with a surprise gotcha mechanic, but enjoy none of the actual staying power of a proper tank (something some tanks can help with, but not always) and are essentially at the mercy of server ticks actually registering buff and debuff in time before the actual strike of Zantetsuken, savvy players know how to avoid this and lock the samurai down, and compared to classes like Monk it can come off as unreliable but potent if used correctly. It's viable, but it is a gamble, more than many other melee DPS jobs.

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You pretty well hit the nail on the head. I definitely think they should revert the Chiten nerf (or at least bump it back up to like 40%, given its low duration and SAM's relative lack of defensive skills other than Chiten), and I'd probably extend Kuzushi to 5 sec duration. I would also change Chiten such that it does not apply Kuzushi unless the SAM is hit by a targeted attack, though. Many classes don't get a choice about whether or not to use AOE damage, and opening them to instant death because the SAM hit Chiten a postal code away (thanks, server ticks) is just no bueno.

Honestly, with the way server ticks are, I wouldn't really be sad if both Zantetsuken and Seiton Tenchou were redesigned to no longer have an execution mechanic.

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Originally Posted by Nikoto

The only rework SAM needs is being nerfed so I can laugh at weebs.

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Ew people like you still exist?

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Originally Posted by Vatom

Ew people like you still exist?

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Probably sarcasm. Either that or a complete lack of self-awareness. Look at their username. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Sigma860

Probably sarcasm. Either that or a complete lack of self-awareness. Look at their username. :rolleyes:

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Lol I didn’t even notice thx that makes more sense
Man it’s hard to tell with text

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Originally Posted by KhudusQestir

Please don't listen to this guy, I've been seeing him in just about every forum saying how nothing is broken. You can argue but he doesn't seem to hold knowledge of what he's talking about. He was just arguing with others in another forum saying arguing about RPR that he's never played as and now educating you on SAM when he's already given me a list of what jobs he played. Don't waste your time, please.

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He was right about reaper though and I've played it. I think people should read what things say and come to their own educated conclusion instead of treating people like sheep and telling them who to listen to. Because I'd rather listen to a sensible take on RPR than listen to someone who's played 500 matches and still can't get it together. I don't know how often his posts have merit but I can tell for myself whether something is worth reading or not.

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Originally Posted by Vatom

Lol I didn’t even notice thx that makes more sense
Man it’s hard to tell with text

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Yeah, I wasn't being serious lol.

Though I do personally believe that no LB should just be a one shot and I think SAM's LB is massively flawed because it makes the game more annoying.

Execution just don't mix well with low tickrate servers. I've said several times that I think the PvP revamp and CC are actually really well done... but it feels like they were written for a completely different game. With how low tickrate the servers are, I think a slower PvP system focused on attrition and long duration CC effects (balanced by everyone having Purify without resilience and Fetter Ward) would make more sense, as each individual action matters less than the sum total.

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

Execution just don't mix well with low tickrate servers. I've said several times that I think the PvP revamp and CC are actually really well done... but it feels like they were written for a completely different game. With how low tickrate the servers are, I think a slower PvP system focused on attrition and long duration CC effects (balanced by everyone having Purify without resilience and Fetter Ward) would make more sense, as each individual action matters less than the sum total.

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I feel the same way

My personal preference would be Samurai as a tank, everyone knows they wear armour on the battlefield (just incase anyone asked me how would they survive without robes.)

1.Look at enemy team list
2.Notice sam has lb
3.Hit sam till they use chiten
4.Don't press any buttons for 5 seconds
5.Continue hitting sam til dead
Players act like they never played red light green light.

In my honest opinion samurai needs a whole rework period.
I'd hate to say such a thing, but I'd put it at the bottom of the melee tier list. Outside of a gimmicky LB that they usually use once a game, compared to what all other melee bring, sam is underperforming.

Friendly reminder, the reflect damage on chiten is 2k. Imagine getting hit with 2k.

............The only solution I can think of in fixing their LB is to lol.....buff it's LB from 24k to 32k on the first target it hits, with a 50% fall off in line of sight. Just change Chitan that used to give you a 25% damage taken for 5 secs to a 25% heavy/skill-spell speed reduction for 3 secs. Trying to keep it on par with the old effects.

I don't know much about SAM other than my Battle High V getting assassinated by them in frontlines for 60k damage whenever there is a teamfight. :(

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Originally Posted by Rubytoe

1.Look at enemy team list
2.Notice sam has lb
3.Hit sam till they use chiten
4.Don't press any buttons for 5 seconds
5.Continue hitting sam til dead
Players act like they never played red light green light.

In my honest opinion samurai needs a whole rework period.
I'd hate to say such a thing, but I'd put it at the bottom of the melee tier list. Outside of a gimmicky LB that they usually use once a game, compared to what all other melee bring, sam is underperforming.

Friendly reminder, the reflect damage on chiten is 2k. Imagine getting hit with 2k.

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Except this is very uninteresting gameplay and they can get a free instant kill if you accidentally clip them with an AOE - which is really frustrating. I do agree though, they probably need a full rework.

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Originally Posted by Ravenwatch

I don't know much about SAM other than my Battle High V getting assassinated by them in frontlines for 60k damage whenever there is a teamfight. :(

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Its kinda annoying but I learned the hard way after the current patch ;

-Ignore the SAM or Tank that dives 1vs24
-Target the enemy behind them (usually a range job)
-Focus hard until the range job dies
-SAM by now already spent his Chiten.
-SAM player can't track everyone with Kuzushi and will spend his LB anyways.
-See him panic and run away.

When I play with smart players in FL the enemy SAM's almost never get a single kill with Kazushi+LB.

Funny story is samurai strongest weapon is also it self greatest weakness lol

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Originally Posted by Nikoto

Except this is very uninteresting gameplay and they can get a free instant kill if you accidentally clip them with an AOE - which is really frustrating. I do agree though, they probably need a full rework.

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That is the only questionable part of the LB, accidently dying to the SAM because 80% of your kit does aoe damage. While not hitting the SAM for 5 seconds is entirely reasonable, not being able to do anything for 5 seconds because you're going to unintentionally cleave the SAM is questionable design.

They need to remove the instant kill from the LB and maybe make it take 50% off health players instead. /Sarcasm

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

That is the only questionable part of the LB, accidently dying to the SAM because 80% of your kit does aoe damage. While not hitting the SAM for 5 seconds is entirely reasonable, not being able to do anything for 5 seconds because you're going to unintentionally cleave the SAM is questionable design.

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Begs the question. Can SAM run into a MCH turret and then instant kill them?

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Originally Posted by Nikoto

Begs the question. Can SAM run into a MCH turret and then instant kill them?

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No ground AOE dont proc it only targeted dmg (this includes aoe hit that hit another target)
Learn this the hard way trying to exploit

Hope I explained that clearly

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Originally Posted by Vatom

No ground AOE dont proc it only targeted dmg (this includes aoe hit that hit another target)
Learn this the hard way trying to exploit

Hope I explained that clearly

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You did, thank you.

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Originally Posted by Nikoto

Begs the question. Can SAM run into a MCH turret and then instant kill them?

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Yes. Zantetsuken literally does the target's max HP as damage. It isn't affected by damage down, vuln up, etc. It's like the inverse of White Wind.

It *is* affected by shields - shields function normally and block damage until they are exhausted - but is otherwise not affected by buffs or debuffs. As long as you have full HP and have at least 1 point of shielding, you will not die to Zantetsuken. But you'll be nearly dead and pretty much any follow-up will finish you off.