Loot Request - Another path - Criterion Dungeons

In patch 6.25 we will be getting a new game mode: Another path - Criterion Dungeons and Another path - Criterion Dungeons (Savage)

Can we get the best gear in the game through Savage dungeons or maybe some special augmentation for the gear we obtain from raids?

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Originally Posted by Katoar

In patch 6.25 we will be getting a new game mode: Another path - Criterion Dungeons and Another path - Criterion Dungeons (Savage)

Can we get the best gear in the game through Savage dungeons or maybe some special augmentation for the gear we obtain from raids?

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Unless the gear is lower ilvl than savage gear then you will end up with the same issue WoW has with gearing when M+ got added which is in order to raid optimally, you have to spam dungeons to get bis. If gear is going to drop in the Savage versions, it should be Alliance raid equivalent (i.e. 10 ilvls below savage). Even then, if the gear is strong enough, it may invalidate the need for crafting gear unless you're a day 1/week 1 raider.

So no. Have it drop gear that is strong but not equivalent to savage raid gear.

I honestly don't want any player progress tied to the dungeons. I'd rather it be competitive through leaderboards and have glamour tied to it.

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Originally Posted by Yeastyloins

Unless the gear is lower ilvl than savage gear then you will end up with the same issue WoW has with gearing when M+ got added which is in order to raid optimally, you have to spam dungeons to get bis. If gear is going to drop in the Savage versions, it should be Alliance raid equivalent (i.e. 10 ilvls below savage). Even then, if the gear is strong enough, it may invalidate the need for crafting gear unless you're a day 1/week 1 raider.

So no. Have it drop gear that is strong but not equivalent to savage raid gear.

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I would very much like it if Savage dungeons are as not considered or treated as a secondary content to savage raids as raids are really not that big of a deal. You have one boss whose tank busters hit less than a wall-to-wall pull in a levelling dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Katoar

I would very much like it if Savage dungeons are as not considered or treated as a secondary content to savage raids as raids are really not that big of a deal. You have one boss whose tank busters hit less than a wall-to-wall pull in a levelling dungeon.

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Oh don't me wrong. In these savage dungeons busters should kill a tank if they don't mit it correctly, have bosses and mobs do back to back raid wides and if there isn't a reprisal up on top of shields/substantial heals done between raid wides your group wipes, put a hard enrage cast on boss early enough that forces players to play optimally as if you were doing a savage fight with just over min-iLvl gear; similarly add damage downs instead of vulns to ensure you have to DPS properly while contending with mechanics. Make this hard as nails and if people go in with suboptimal play they don't get to clear.

Just don't tie gear to it, or atleast offer it as a stop gap to fill in pieces as you get your savage raid gear. Not be a total replacement to savage raid gear. The gear shouldn't be what defines it as high end content, it should be the mechanics and the expectations the player needs to meet.

I better see some sick dye-able glams for Savage only tho.

I'd be fine with savage dungeon rewards being minions, mounts, level 1 glam, bragging rights, etc.

BiS goes in the bin after about 8 months, but stuff that looks cool lasts forever. Not that I'll complain if they also drop useful gear. :cool:

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Originally Posted by Yeastyloins

Oh don't me wrong. In these savage dungeons busters should kill a tank if they don't mit it correctly, have bosses and mobs do back to back raid wides and if there isn't a reprisal up on top of shields/substantial heals done between raid wides your group wipes, put a hard enrage cast on boss early enough that forces players to play optimally as if you were doing a savage fight with just over min-iLvl gear; similarly add damage downs instead of vulns to ensure you have to DPS properly while contending with mechanics. Make this hard as nails and if people go in with suboptimal play they don't get to clear.

Just don't tie gear to it, or atleast offer it as a stop gap to fill in pieces as you get your savage raid gear. Not be a total replacement to savage raid gear. The gear shouldn't be what defines it as high end content, it should be the mechanics and the expectations the player needs to meet.

I better see some sick dye-able only glams for Savage tho.

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They could also offer some sort of materia that we can't get from somewhere else. Just some sort of gear progression must be present while reclearing. In savage dungeons, people won't be able to rezz so that's something that makes them more difficult to deal with or recover from mistakes than current savage and even ultimates. Although in most cases, a mistake there results in a wipe.

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Originally Posted by Katoar

In patch 6.25 we will be getting a new game mode: Another path - Criterion Dungeons and Another path - Criterion Dungeons (Savage)

Can we get the best gear in the game through Savage dungeons or maybe some special augmentation for the gear we obtain from raids?

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thery did not say what we get from it and its the problem. if it will not give good gear(good looking glams counts) from it the hole thing will flop as it be a one time thingy and be dead in a weak or 2.it being a lvl 90 thing don't give it the lvling option deep dungeons got. this be a content as good as it be that will live on the rewords it got. if they forget of it the same way they did deep dungeons it be a shame and 1 more wasted time of the dev team.

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Originally Posted by Katoar

I would very much like it if Savage dungeons are as not considered or treated as a secondary content to savage raids as raids are really not that big of a deal. You have one boss whose tank busters hit less than a wall-to-wall pull in a levelling dungeon.

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I agree they should provide alternative path to the highest item level equipment. Criterion sounds good but the quality of the rewards is something that can still sink the content after the initial buzz has died down. The normal difficulty version is also at risk of losing long-term participation if it is not connected to the roulette system or giving large exp or something.

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Originally Posted by Rufalus

I agree they should provide alternative path to the highest item level equipment. Criterion sounds good but the quality of the rewards is something that can still sink the content after the initial buzz has died down. The normal difficulty version is also at risk of losing long-term participation if it is not connected to the roulette system or giving large exp or something.

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You can already get highest item level equipment now. BiS is generally a mix between that and raid drops. Just like in WoW, you can't have repeatable content drop the highest level items as it's a detriment to the other activities. Now, if you want it to work similar to being able to have a weekly cap, or have it drop the supplemental items for enhancing the tome gear, then I could see supporting that.

No, PLS. Don't put statics in a position where members get told to do their "weekly" chore just to get gear, no matter how little they enjoy it.

I think the level of gear that could be added there would heavily depend on how hard the Dungeon actually is...

Unless I'm wrong, based on previous patches the next gears we're getting in 6.2 should be
605 for Dungeon
610 For Normal Raid / Crafted
615 For Extreme Weapons
620 For un-upgraded Tomestone
630 For Upgraded Tomestone / Savage Raid
635 For Savage Raid Weapons

Going straight for the 630 would probably be a little too much, but anything below that would probably be open. Since the main challenge from my understanding comes from the complete lack of ressing.

They just need to apply the same restrictions as savage on it with same ilvl gear and upgrade for tomes, and it's done. And since this content will come in the .25 patch, it will be more a catch up than anything else, most savage player will already have a good amount of savage gear when criterion savage is released.

If the gear is different, it could be a nice source for items with differents stats on it... So the tomes rings will have something to compete with.

Just thought about somethings, let's put the gear in criterion dungeon to 620 but upgradable with the same item than Tomestone one. With weekly limits, it could be a third source of good gear.

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Originally Posted by RobynDaBank

No, PLS. Don't put statics in a position where members get told to do their "weekly" chore just to get gear, no matter how little they enjoy it.

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same as now? ok. there be new crafted gear you can have

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Originally Posted by Rufalus

I agree they should provide alternative path to the highest item level equipment. Criterion sounds good but the quality of the rewards is something that can still sink the content after the initial buzz has died down. The normal difficulty version is also at risk of losing long-term participation if it is not connected to the roulette system or giving large exp or something.

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Rewards should be substantial in both cosmetics (unique mounts, glams, pets, etc) AND iLvl. I just don't think the iLvl rewards should be the equivalent of Savage Raid gear unless the min iLvl is substantially high like if it was current for 6.0 it being like 590 min iLvl. I think it would be better if it was a stop gap for players to get their foot in the door for savage raiding but still provide a challenge for players. So it could give like 590 from the first 2-3 bosses then 595 from the final boss. It will make savage raiding significantly smoother for groups that require the whole tier to prog given but still hold savage raiding as the end goal.

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Originally Posted by Katoar

They could also offer some sort of materia that we can't get from somewhere else. Just some sort of gear progression must be present while reclearing. In savage dungeons, people won't be able to rezz so that's something that makes them more difficult to deal with or recover from mistakes than current savage and even ultimates. Although in most cases, a mistake there results in a wipe.

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If its just normal dungeons but mobs get stronger over time and you can't wipe, then its still brain dead content for raiders if everything else is still at normal standards.

Gonna guess the gear will be something along the line the gear we get from the relic exploration zones since its looking like we arent getting any this expansion, so maybe not the same ilv as savage gear but with all 5 slots?

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Originally Posted by Yeastyloins

Unless the gear is lower ilvl than savage gear then you will end up with the same issue WoW has with gearing when M+ got added which is in order to raid optimally, you have to spam dungeons to get bis.

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to be fair, the problem in wow isn't that you can get bis in m+ dungeons but that the game is designed so you will never truly reach BiS so there will quite literally allways be upgrades, especially as m+ sometimes has quite gimicky (and op) items. gearing in FF is a lot more straightforward, so even at worst it wouldn't be nearly as big of a deal as it is in wow.

another thing to consider is that they come out during 6.25, at this point the groups that would absolutely require you to run these dungeons will allready have completed the raidtier, whereas depending on their difficulty level a group that is struggling heavily during the regular raid may not even be able to complete them (i doubt that, but it's a possibility). but even if they end up somewhere on the realm of "harder than dungeons, but really anyone that truly puts in a bit of effort can do them", at 6.3 you will again be able to get max itemlevel gear by running alliance raid and grinding tomestomes anyways, so i don't see the issue with offering max ilvl gear for putting doing actual hard content after the halfway point between raid release and catch up mechanic release.

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Originally Posted by Hanayumi

Gonna guess the gear will be something along the line the gear we get from the relic exploration zones since its looking like we arent getting any this expansion, so maybe not the same ilv as savage gear but with all 5 slots?

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It is a good chance for themed gear of these dungeons too or an explorator kind of gear, many good possibilities

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Originally Posted by Yeastyloins

Rewards should be substantial in both cosmetics (unique mounts, glams, pets, etc) AND iLvl. I just don't think the iLvl rewards should be the equivalent of Savage Raid gear unless the min iLvl is substantially high like if it was current for 6.0 it being like 590 min iLvl. I think it would be better if it was a stop gap for players to get their foot in the door for savage raiding but still provide a challenge for players. So it could give like 590 from the first 2-3 bosses then 595 from the final boss. It will make savage raiding significantly smoother for groups that require the whole tier to prog given but still hold savage raiding as the end goal.

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I think Another path - Criterion Dungeons is a perfect opportunity for devs to incorporate hardcore content that does not revolve around Full party targeting dummy bosses with a different skin on and mechs. We can keep savage raids as a stepping stone for savage dungeons.

I also do not share the opinion that the game has no mid-core content as the jump from Normal Trials and Extreme is very reasonable and nothing out of reach for a casual player who has paid enough attention during the normal trial. And from Extreme to first floor boss of Savage, again nothing too big.

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Originally Posted by Katoar

We can keep savage raids as a stepping stone for savage dungeons.

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I do not think you will find a lot of people who follow this similar mindset, but you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

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Originally Posted by magitekLuna

same as now? ok. there be new crafted gear you can have

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I'm sorry, what?

Speaking BiS kupo , you ever just try some odd stat that normally would not be maxed? like on my Mch/bard I tried the mix/match/materia at full skill speed to see and while it was fun it did hurt dps of course but the speed made it actually much more fun kupo <3 lol

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Originally Posted by Yeastyloins

Oh don't me wrong. In these savage dungeons busters should kill a tank if they don't mit it correctly, have bosses and mobs do back to back raid wides and if there isn't a reprisal up on top of shields/substantial heals done between raid wides your group wipes, put a hard enrage cast on boss early enough that forces players to play optimally as if you were doing a savage fight with just over min-iLvl gear; similarly add damage downs instead of vulns to ensure you have to DPS properly while contending with mechanics. Make this hard as nails and if people go in with suboptimal play they don't get to clear.

Just don't tie gear to it, or atleast offer it as a stop gap to fill in pieces as you get your savage raid gear. Not be a total replacement to savage raid gear. The gear shouldn't be what defines it as high end content, it should be the mechanics and the expectations the player needs to meet.

I better see some sick dye-able glams for Savage only tho.

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I'm a bit confused.

It sounds like you're saying "I want these to be harder than Savage raids...but offer less rewards than Savage raids".

I'm not clear on how that makes sense.

What part of doing - if it IS on par with Savage raid content - your end-game with 4 people vs 8 means you should get lesser rewards?

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Originally Posted by Doc_Seraph

Speaking BiS kupo , you ever just try some odd stat that normally would not be maxed? like on my Mch/bard I tried the mix/match/materia at full skill speed to see and while it was fun it did hurt dps of course but the speed made it actually much more fun kupo <3 lol

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Healers don't really have a lot of options when it comes to melding. People max piety, some max determination, others CH and DH and some SpS. SpS AST was BiS iirc when this savage tier was released. I stick with what's useful for my job though I would have liked to try 2.3 recast time for Sage.

Piety is a stat that needs to be removed IMO. It is useless even during prog week 1. Inevitably going to end into enrage p3s/p4s if someone dies. So I had CH maxed and DH pentamelded instead.

Ease of completion. Unless they are going to construct bosses and mechanics that will be 9-11 minutes PER boss, then fundamentally it is easier given you will need to play optimally for a short period of time within 1-2 minutes. The burden of difficulty partially in savage is that you must do the "dance" while continuing to hit your buttons for a significant time. I doubt that they will have 3 9 minute fights for people to do in a dungeon given dungeons are meant to be more fluid in terms of design.

It should be just below savage tier so people do it as a means to gear up alternatively before raiding. Nobody will do it if its just for achievements.

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Originally Posted by Akiudo

to be fair, the problem in wow isn't that you can get bis in m+ dungeons but that the game is designed so you will never truly reach BiS so there will quite literally allways be upgrades, especially as m+ sometimes has quite gimicky (and op) items. gearing in FF is a lot more straightforward, so even at worst it wouldn't be nearly as big of a deal as it is in wow.

another thing to consider is that they come out during 6.25, at this point the groups that would absolutely require you to run these dungeons will allready have completed the raidtier, whereas depending on their difficulty level a group that is struggling heavily during the regular raid may not even be able to complete them (i doubt that, but it's a possibility). but even if they end up somewhere on the realm of "harder than dungeons, but really anyone that truly puts in a bit of effort can do them", at 6.3 you will again be able to get max itemlevel gear by running alliance raid and grinding tomestomes anyways, so i don't see the issue with offering max ilvl gear for putting doing actual hard content after the halfway point between raid release and catch up mechanic release.

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If that's the case, then why not push savage dungeons to 6.3 then when the tier is over? Again, I'd be fine if it provided gear 5 lvls below savage raid gear to maintain some of savage's difficulty. Even before acquiring BIS or getting to that 5 ilvls before max ilvl, DPS and healing requirements become trivial looking at it from a numbers game, leaving the variance in your chance to clear by skill. However, more gear allows for more sloppy and lenient play given you can play safer by losing uptime to guarantee resolving mechanics.

I just think that savage raid's difficulty (or at least the last 2 bosses) should be maintained to a degree within the patch it was released. One compromise however I'd think I would really like though is it providing max ilvl accessories (but not left side gear slots) and maybe a weapon equivalent to the unaugmented tombstone weapon. Provides a good stepping stone into getting your first few savage fights down by getting you some pieces of gear right off the bat while also training you for better play, but still maintains the difficulty of Savage raids.

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Originally Posted by Yeastyloins

If that's the case, then why not push savage dungeons to 6.3 then when the tier is over? Again, I'd be fine if it provided gear 5 lvls below savage raid gear to maintain some of savage's difficulty. Even before acquiring BIS or getting to that 5 ilvls before max ilvl, DPS and healing requirements become trivial looking at it from a numbers game, leaving the variance in your chance to clear by skill. However, more gear allows for more sloppy and lenient play given you can play safer by losing uptime to guarantee resolving mechanics.

I just think that savage raid's difficulty (or at least the last 2 bosses) should be maintained to a degree within the patch it was released. One compromise however I'd think I would really like though is it providing max ilvl accessories (but not left side gear slots) and maybe a weapon equivalent to the unaugmented tombstone weapon. Provides a good stepping stone into getting your first few savage fights down by getting you some pieces of gear right off the bat while also training you for better play, but still maintains the difficulty of Savage raids.

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It's already midway to 6.3, it will be released in 6.25 so savage raids will have started way before savage dungeon... What would be cool, is if it could give gear equivalent to tomestones with different stats and the same system of upgrade so we could have a new source of max ilvl gear. You would still need to do savage raids to upgrade savage dungeon gear, and we will have variety in max ilvl gear.
And that way, it could act as a catch up mechs for people who have bad luck on raid loot.

Probably just dont put gear as drops. There are several other things to put in there: mounts, minions, glam, emotes, crafting materials. You can have rewarding content but you have to continue to innovate that content and update it. I agree with others thoughts of adding accessories at the most for gear but main body pieces should only be from Savage only.

What if it just straight up dropped Tome gear on a once a week lockout or such?

You still need Savage to upgrade it to 630. But it would be a great way to gear alts without being brick-walled by the 450 tome cap. Worth running for without handing you BiS on a plate.

I'd probably be okay if it dropped gear that has bonuses for Criterion Dungeons, kinda like Bozja/Eurekan gear.

It would add a sense of progression that's only in that content, but it won't fully invalidate Raid gear and BiS outside of it.

The dungeons get added a couple months after the raid has been out so they will not have that issue since they raid would be long cleared by then for most of the average raiders.

Given that they release on 5.25, weeks after savage, I'd be fine with them giving good tomestones rewards and giving weekly tome upgrade items, or something similar.

Plus glam stuff, of course.