Duty Support needs some work

Have other folks mentioned these things about Duty Support?

1 - Why not change the pathing slightly so they don't absolutely positively walk in front of my cursor every time I try to interact with something. Just have them hang back a step or two. Sigh...

2 - Could we have them not do every dungeon as if it's "Minimum Item Level". Just did Hauuke Manor once with Duty Support - 22 min and then with Duty Finder - 12 min. How about we adjust the NPCs item level to oh, say 20% higher than minimum? I heard a rumor that Duty Support was to allow solo play as the game continues to mature and fewer folks are playing the lower levels. Well. Whatever Duty Support's intended purpose, Let's no penalize folks when they use Duty Support please.

3 - I like to play with a friend. Or Two. How about we make Duty Support able to fill a party rather than only for Solo players? Sure, allow solo players to use it, But if I'm with a friend, and want to learn a job or practice a job or just play without others, then how about Duty Support works for us to? We could add a healer or a DPS or well you get the idea. If these NPCs can play the game, and are not just faking it, then having other real people on the party shouldn't mess them up.

Please consider making Duty Support more useful. Otherwise it will go the way of Squadrons? Oh you remember those? The completely useless things that are part of your Grand Company? I tried them once. Just a time sink with no benefit that I could find. Unless you wanna become General or Emperor or whatever of your GC, then you need them. Please let's not have Duty Support go down that rabbit hole. I can't even dress up my squadron and show them off to a friend. They don't do parties with others either. I thought Glamour was a big part of this game. Completely missed opportunity.

And of course, all the above comments about Duty Support apply to Oh what's that other feature called? Oh, Right. Trusts. All the same problems apply. Remind me again why we have Trusts AND Duty Support? I could never figure that out. Some how they are different. A difference without a distinction? Is that the term?

Anyway, I ramble on. What are your thoughts?

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Originally Posted by WindyGamer

And of course, all the above comments about Duty Support apply to Oh what's that other feature called? Oh, Right. Trusts. All the same problems apply. Remind me again why we have Trusts AND Duty Support? I could never figure that out. Some how they are different. A difference without a distinction? Is that the term?

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I said it before and i'll say it again. Squadrons will always be superior to the "Trust System™" for many reasons. No Yoshida, i'm not grinding the trusts to lv 90 so I can party with Yish-toe-la wearing a new hat. What's the point of letting the playerbase glamour their squad when you are pushing your knockoff persona characters on me? Why yes, i'm still bitter about how every major character's personality has devolved into basic tropes, thank you for asking!

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Originally Posted by WindyGamer

1 - Why not change the pathing slightly so they don't absolutely positively walk in front of my cursor every time I try to interact with something.

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This is a problem in general where you can click other characters in front of you when you don't want to. If I wanted to click a character I would use the party list.

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2 - Could we have them not do every dungeon as if it's "Minimum Item Level". Just did Hauuke Manor once with Duty Support - 22 min and then with Duty Finder - 12 min. How about we adjust the NPCs item level to oh, say 20% higher than minimum? I heard a rumor that Duty Support was to allow solo play as the game continues to mature and fewer folks are playing the lower levels.

Remind me again why we have Trusts AND Duty Support? I could never figure that out. Some how they are different. A difference without a distinction? Is that the term?

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It's intended to allow solo support but SE does not want it to be better than playing with real people.

The difference between Duty Support and Trusts is that you can level trusts, so that you can do the dungeons "above minimum item level" as you described it.

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Please consider making Duty Support more useful. Otherwise it will go the way of Squadrons?

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It's frequently used for first clears and it will be used by new players for a long time. I doubt it would have been extended to ARR and continued in EW if it wasn't being used.

I just completed haukke manor in duty support in 14 minutes as DRK. I don't see the issue.

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Originally Posted by Mesarthim

I just completed haukke manor in duty support in 14 minutes as DRK. I don't see the issue.

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Could you mention your Item Level, level. I'm guessing that you did the majority of the damage on this run. I was noticing that on my runs as a 31 MCH that I was doing more damage than the NPCs. - the floaty numbers from me were about twice as high as the NPC numbers. I'm guessing that you carried the NPCs through the run to get that time. As I understand it, Duty Support is designed for players at level with white gear at level with any job role. My point is that it works, but looks like a minimum level / item level run.

I'm not suggesting that Duty Support should be as good as a Duty Finder run, but that it should not be 50% slower than a typical run. That's why I suggested that the Duty Support NPCs be something like 20% better than Minimum Item Level rather than apparently Minimum Item Level.

Yeah I guess I should elaborate: It was basically synced down to the max it allows and I was very aggressive. I also just finished a run as RDM in about 16 minutes (but 30 seconds should be shaved off due to dumb AI that I could've avoided), also synced down to the max. Made use of the caster LB after pulling about 7 enemies in the basement loop (the conjurer and marauder could handle it).

So it's intended that duty support takes longer than human players, and you can be aggressive when with npcs to compensate for the AI (though not as fast as humans, naturally). I can make a case though that it might be slower as a healer or melee because you lack a proper aoe (or one at all) at that level range as well as an aoe Limit Break. That's less an issue of the duty support and more just poor job design.

Edit: So to get these times you do need aoe capability, as well as the fact you need to sometimes chain pull (you don't need to be considerate with npcs as you do with people).

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

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So, Hashtag No Changes?? Gotcha.

So, Mesarthim, your conclusion is that it's ok the way it is? It's ok to disadvantage Duty Support users compared with playing with a party of Sprouts?

I really like how you just put words into Mesarthims mouth, considering they didn't even say anything of the sort.

The way I see it is that this system isn't intended as a 1:1 replacement for actual players. Being slower when learning as a first timer with npcs isn't necessarily a problem. You're new, you're learning, taking longer is expected.

I've gotten trusts all the way to level 90. It's boring, it's slower, but otherwise this is how the system was designed from the get go. You can play alone but the cost is time (especially with dps queue times if they're too long). If your queue time as a dps is longer than the run itself then that's where duty support/trust comes in.

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Originally Posted by WindyGamer

It's ok to disadvantage Duty Support users compared with playing with a party of Sprouts?

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You're implying that the system was designed to fully replace humans. It was and is not.

If most Duty supports in ARR don't even need me to heal them, then there is no problem with it.

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Originally Posted by WindyGamer

So, Mesarthim, your conclusion is that it's ok the way it is? It's ok to disadvantage Duty Support users compared with playing with a party of Sprouts?

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Yes? They want you to play with people but added this for those who don't want to. If duty support was just as good there'd be no incentive.

In case people didn't know, you can assign a key to hold down to interact with things and not click on others and your party.

Just brought a friend to the game, and had no idea this was a thing until they asked me if they should run with NPC's, or Queue. Was like, wha?! Pretty neat actually. Told them to go ahead and run with NPC's, they enjoyed the experience since they showed how to do boss mechanics. But they still prefer I go with them in a queue, just since friends and all.

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Originally Posted by MilkieTea

I really like how you just put words into Mesarthims mouth, considering they didn't even say anything of the sort.

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I had no intention of doing that. I misunderstood. Please correct me. Thanks a bunch.

So, quick count - it's 6 to 2 against making any changes to the Duty Support system? Ok No changes then. Guess I'm done posting today anyway.

It’s slow because they don’t use AoEs like players do. Nor can the NPC healers handle if you pull two groups at a time

I'd be so down for Trusts/Support/Squadrons to have to ability to fill in slots in groups that only have 2 or 3 people. I think Squeenix mentioned it was a targeting problem since the NPCs only recognized the leader. But, I'm sure they could figure it if they really wanted to. I'd like to use them so that myself and a friend could queue up into a dungeon with 2 other NPCs, then spend like an hour or whatever because we're just casually yammerin' away. Or being able to do a dungeon with just my mother. I wouldn't mind at all if it was much slower than your average light party group.

An updated Squadron system with just about anything would also be nice. There's several forgotten side-systems I would like to see updates to, as well.

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Originally Posted by AngelCheese77

It’s slow because they don’t use AoEs like players do. Nor can the NPC healers handle if you pull two groups at a time

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They can but it's a risk because their scripting, or whatever else controls NPC behaviour, is slow to react to any changes.

So you can do wall-to-wall pulls even with trusts but be ready to sprint back to the healer NPC that is gleefully spamming Dosis/Malefic/Glare or run circles around the tank NPC until it manages to pick them up.

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Originally Posted by AngelCheese77

Nor can the NPC healers handle if you pull two groups at a time

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I have done so successfully many, many times. It carries a small amount of risk getting the two packs together but generally once the tank has the mobs it's fine. Though I will mention in my earlier example if I was the tank, like my 14 min haukke manor with npcs, one time I had the 7+ mobs and almost died. The reason was the handmaidens doing dark mist. If the healer is inside the radius they will, due to being an npc, move to dodge the aoe. It does not matter if you interrupt it they will NOT do anything until the aoe would have naturally ended THEN they will heal you. This happened once or twice when I was the tank so I was left to kite silently screaming for my life until the npc healer remembered they existed.

Also npc tanks are very bulky. Double pulls wouldn't kill them majority of the time. A triple would, but most dungeons cap at 2 pulls these days unless you're Mt gulg.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

They can but it's a risk because their scripting, or whatever else controls NPC behaviour, is slow to react to any changes.

So you can do wall-to-wall pulls even with trusts but be ready to sprint back to the healer NPC that is gleefully spamming Dosis/Malefic/Glare or run circles around the tank NPC until it manages to pick them up.

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I tanked with Trust and neither Alphy or Urianger could keep me alive with 2 packs and using defensive abilities. Hm. Even with lelev gear. Maybe I’m missing something

It's better than the Squadron System, which the Duty Support/Trust systems are based on.

I would also like to see a Gambit system. For example, I like my Healers to have medica 2 on ALWAYS! Same with Regain always on the Tank,

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Originally Posted by Izar_Chillen

Not only that , they had to make one of the DPS npc a Thaumaturge , and one that does the worst rotation it could possibly do.

All it casts is fire 1 , then pauses for a moment, then blizzard 1 , pauses , maybe a thunder 1/2 , pauses, repeat - its so bad it may as well not be in there it does such slow and weak damage . Why did they have to make it a THM. Why cant we choose the team make up? Give us a choice SQE, let us have a ninja , or bard . something better.

Its so painful to experience the horrendous damage they do I cant be bothered with Trust AI . The only upgrade any of the AI got is now the tank will charge in even at low levels with that level 62 ability and land overpower better than the squadron counter part that still thinks its got a cone overpower. The CNJ is a bit better at being quick to heal and isnt a dipshit that tries to run away or do nothing once battle commence unlike squadrons where they derp for 3-6 seconds doing nothing whilst you attack the enemies.

Ill happily afk/alt-tab and wait for queues as a dps if I have an MSQ dungeons to do.

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Choosing your team would make no difference. The THM isn't even doing actual THM spells. Thunder isn't actually applying any DoT, and there's no MP to manage so no Astral/Umbral balancing.

What you are witnessing is that the NPCs are designed to scale damage based on yours. If you're going all out with your rotation, the NPCs will be doing single-digit damage. If you just press a random attack every few seconds, or even if you go afk, their damage spikes up considerably.

Because, by design, Trusts and Duty Support is entirely intended to take a set minimum amount of time, with some variation depending on how you use them, as demonstrated with big pulls but needing to know the AI to reduce the risk.

This is why you will never be able to use them to "just fill in" when you want to run with a friend or whatever. They are designed to scale damage to a single player to ensure the duty is completed at a certain rate. Adding in even one more player makes it impossible to scale further, and wildly unbalances the intended design.

This is also why Squadrons are better, for having more fixed damage, that you can even tune higher with Orders they learn along the way. Squads go brrrrr if you got 'em set up proper.



Completely unrelated, I managed to get a healer NPC killed in Stone Vigil as I was trying things out, and was quite surprised to see the tank NPC pull out a Phoenix Down to get them back up after we cleared out the mobs. Good show, preparing for that niche situation. On that front, they are better than Squadrons, which won't do anything to help a dead healer. Better be carrying some Company Tonics for that situation.

At least the conjurer does DPS unlike most healers in dungeon :)

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Originally Posted by HisShadowX

It's better than the Squadron System, which the Duty Support/Trust systems are based on.

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I still prefer Squadron because if you become the healer, you don't need to heal the tank but instead just spam dpsing, also the archer gives Refresh as well :)

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Originally Posted by AngelCheese77

I tanked with Trust and neither Alphy or Urianger could keep me alive with 2 packs and using defensive abilities. Hm. Even with lelev gear. Maybe I’m missing something

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Depending where you are in the MSQ you will get access to a White Mage Healer (The All Rounder). He's the best one for pulling out the 'oh sheeeeet!' big heals needed for multi-pulls and has the clutch Benediction too.

Second point is pretty moot. We've said it before but Trusts/Duty Support are supposed to be kind of bad so that they don't match real players.

My only complaint towards that will always be about how the damage down by them scales constantly. It's annoying to tryhard hoping for a significant increase in times when the trust is just going to scale their damages back so that it's only a slight gain on mob pulls and it's actually a loss on bosses unless you go at a certain pace(have all Trusts up to level 90 for the record). It'd feel a bit better if they just let their damage stay linear. If you end up outspeeding real parties(which you shouldn't be outspeeding any decent party but whatever), then it's fine.

It's honestly not that bad though. ARR/HW dungeons are around 10 minutes worth of time with regular people, with SB pushing to around 14ish minutes average until you get to dungeons like Castrum Abania, Ala Mhigo, Skalla(and I think some of the optional dungeons like Hells' Lid do this too) where you sometimes end up waiting for mobs to show up instead of being able to just aoe them all down. Trusts are only like 5ish minutes onto all of these usually.

ShB/EW dungeons trusts are like 5-10 minutes more, depending on party comp though. If you're not a tanking as WAR/PLD then you need a certain person as healer for bigger pulls. Think you get the best times with that healer while playing DPS though since you can burn the mobs down the fastest.

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Originally Posted by WindyGamer

So, quick count - it's 6 to 2 against making any changes to the Duty Support system? Ok No changes then. Guess I'm done posting today anyway.

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You're sounding really butthurt that not everyone agrees with you :p

I will say I do think we should be able to switch the dps for the lower level trusts if we play the second dps. I tend to prefer having a melee or a ranged non mage with me if I'm a mage and vice versa.

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Originally Posted by Hasrat

Choosing your team would make no difference.

What you are witnessing is that the NPCs are designed to scale damage based on yours.

Because, by design, Trusts and Duty Support is entirely intended to take a set minimum amount of time, with some variation depending on how you use them, as demonstrated with big pulls but needing to know the AI to reduce the risk.

This is why you will never be able to use them to "just fill in" when you want to run with a friend or whatever. They are designed to scale damage to a single player to ensure the duty is completed at a certain rate. Adding in even one more player makes it impossible to scale further, and wildly unbalances the intended design.

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So, they are not really playing the game. They are cheating. Ok. I get it now.

You know, NPCs "really playing the game" has been a thing for a long time. I recall an "un named here" game that did this quite well and has had a second version where they left that feature out completely. Near the end of popularity of that game they added For purchase means to add trainable NPCs to your party. That game is still up and running for free if you'd like to try it. You know, in your down time when you as Y 'P says, occasionally get bored with FF.

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Originally Posted by Wolwosh

You're sounding really butthurt that not everyone agrees with you :p

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Nope. I just like to take count of how many folks want HASH TAG NO CHANGES... ;)

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

It's intended to allow solo support but SE does not want it to be better than playing with real people.

The difference between Duty Support and Trusts is that you can level trusts, so that you can do the dungeons "above minimum item level" as you described it.

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Only in terms of time efficiency. When you can pretty much afk-level using both thanks to how rubber-banded their output is... It's pretty much better than leveling with players.

Been wanting coop trusts since... Well they became a thing!

And I still wish for the same with the support!

Pretty please, no more random :3

The only change I want is sending the lancer if I come as mage instead of always the thaumaturge.

Otherwise as someone who immensely enjoys the duty support for story runs, I agree, they don't need to be faster and smarter. It's okay that parties of players outdo them by a lot. They are there to help with the story not to replace other players or be levelling support.

The duty support they implemented with ShB are the reason I even played that and Endwalker, I hate story runs with PCs. And now that PCs are no longer a necessary evil I must suffer to get what I want - the story as I enjoy it -, I enjoy running with PCs a lot more.
I got what I want with the NPCs, now let's have fun together no matter whether this a first timers run with everyone else being shakey on their skills and the mechanics or max ilevelers going on wall to wall destruction, I'll gladly go at your pace.